Author Topic: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5  (Read 30546 times)

Online eeergo

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #20 on: 05/01/2009 06:20 PM »

Umm was not there a launch failure in the 1980's that the shroud came off exposing for all to see the super duper secret spy payload before smashing it to bits? The one thing both the Delta II and the Titan III have in common is they have both blown a solid shortly after clearing the tower. Maybe that is the fear. It has happened, a live feed could show the whole world what is behind the curtian ... eeer shroud.


Had it exposed the payload? I seem to recall there was a post not so long ago with scans of a report showing "first indication of fairing opening", but didn't see any of the open fairing. That 'first indication' was after the boosters had been split by the RSO.

In any case, nothing that can't be avoided using a slight time delay between broadcast and actual filming... SpaceX appear to handle that technique well ;)

Quote
An audio line for media to listen to the countdown will also not be provided.

Sigh...
« Last Edit: 05/01/2009 06:21 PM by eeergo »
-DaviD-

Online edkyle99

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #21 on: 05/01/2009 09:45 PM »
ULA PAO Mike:
1)     Due to the classified nature of this launch, an external TV and internet broadcast will not be provided.  An audio line for media to listen to the countdown will also not be provided. ...

2)     Media remote camera set up is set for May 4. 

O.K.  So images of the rocket are not the issue.  The issue seems to be something related to the "live" aspect of launch coverage.  Someone paying attention with a fixed video camera augmented by a precision timepiece could probably decipher some "secrets" perhaps? ;)   

Many launches during the Cold War were kept secret, but I thought that the Cold War was over. 

If this launch isn't broadcast because it is classified, then how many more might soon be pulled into the dark?  This is a policy that, after all, hasn't been used in many years.  When you think about it, classified payloads constitute a major percentage of all U.S. launches.  This policy could end coverage of many more ULA launches, including Delta IV and Atlas V.   

There have, unfortunately, been stories of classification being used, in the past by some unscrupulous decision makers, to keep U.S. citizens, rather than some unknown foreign enemy, in the dark.  I hope, for MDA's sake, that it isn't doing anything remotely like that - because if it is the public will eventually learn the truth and MDA will suffer the consequences.  But I'm having trouble seeing any reason for this one beyond keeping it off the evening news.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 05/01/2009 10:02 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline Antares

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #22 on: 05/02/2009 03:56 AM »
NASA Launch Services is the government launch team for this.  Interesting that KSC PAO is not handling the press releases.
« Last Edit: 05/02/2009 04:01 AM by Antares »
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline William Graham

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #23 on: 05/02/2009 09:26 AM »
If this launch isn't broadcast because it is classified, then how many more might soon be pulled into the dark?  This is a policy that, after all, hasn't been used in many years.  When you think about it, classified payloads constitute a major percentage of all U.S. launches.  This policy could end coverage of many more ULA launches, including Delta IV and Atlas V. 

Actually, the last one was in 2007. That was an MDA payload as well.

Offline butters

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #24 on: 05/02/2009 10:30 AM »
Neither the launch provider nor the payload customer have any first amendment obligations to release information to the public beyond certain disclosures required by law.

They don't have to broadcast video of the launch.  They don't have to let people take cameras onto the launch facility grounds or allow public access to the grounds at all.

However, they cannot prevent the public from recording and sharing observations of the launch using locations and equipment beyond the lawful property rights of the launch partners.

We have the right to observe any object in plain view from wherever we're permitted to be.  If they want to launch from a remote island or platform, we can observe from a boat in international waters.

But they don't have to lift a finger for our viewing pleasure.

Online edkyle99

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #25 on: 05/02/2009 01:56 PM »
But they don't have to lift a finger for our viewing pleasure.

This isn't about "viewing pleasure".  We, the taxpayers, ultimately decide whether such missions are funded.  If there's not going to be an F-22, why should anyone expect that there has to be an MDA?  It is in their interest to *communicate*, and there is no better event than a launch for communicating program progress to the public. 

For a mission that likely costs many, many tens of millions of dollars at least, a 15 minute webcast shouldn't be a problem. 

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 05/02/2009 02:03 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline WHAP

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #26 on: 05/02/2009 02:16 PM »

This isn't about "viewing pleasure".  We, the taxpayers, ultimately decide whether such missions are funded.  If there's not going to be an F-22, why should anyone expect that there has to be an MDA?  It is in their interest to *communicate*, and there is no better event than a launch for communicating program progress to the public. 

For a mission that likely costs many, many tens of millions of dollars at least, a 15 minute webcast shouldn't be a problem. 

 - Ed Kyle

We, the taxpayers, do not decide.  Our representatives do.  And they are given a lot more information about the need for the mission.  The actual launch is almost irrelevant - certainly it must be successful, but that success does not depend upon anyone being able to watch it.  But I'd bet that if any of them cared, they'd be given access to the live launch feed.

Ed, everything in your argument except the first sentence says that it is about viewing pleasure.
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Online edkyle99

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #27 on: 05/02/2009 02:54 PM »

This isn't about "viewing pleasure".  We, the taxpayers, ultimately decide whether such missions are funded.  If there's not going to be an F-22, why should anyone expect that there has to be an MDA?  It is in their interest to *communicate*, and there is no better event than a launch for communicating program progress to the public. 

For a mission that likely costs many, many tens of millions of dollars at least, a 15 minute webcast shouldn't be a problem. 

 - Ed Kyle

We, the taxpayers, do not decide.  Our representatives do.  And they are given a lot more information about the need for the mission.  The actual launch is almost irrelevant - certainly it must be successful, but that success does not depend upon anyone being able to watch it.  But I'd bet that if any of them cared, they'd be given access to the live launch feed.

Ed, everything in your argument except the first sentence says that it is about viewing pleasure.

I'm sorry you see democracy that way. 

For me, democracy isn't about trusting politicians to make my decisions.  I live in Illinois! 

Illinois has one former Governor in Federal prison and another en route.  One of our current U.S. Senators wasn't elected - he was appointed by the currently indicted Governor - after he promised to raise money for the same Governor.  Our other Senator vociforously opposed the appointment (he was going to fillibuster), then strangely changed his mind and embraced the new guy (I wonder what went on in *that* meeting).  Other of our State representatives tried to buy the seat it appears, but couldn't raise enough money!  I don't trust any of these "representatives", even those not under investigation.  In Illinois, if they're not under indictment, it probably only means they have yet to be caught.

But my fellow citizens and I *will* make the final choices for these idiots, whether it be in the election booth or while serving jury duty!

It isn't about "viewing pleasure".  Not for me personally.  (I can't remember the last time I watched a Delta II webcast.)  This is about keeping the public informed about what its government is up to. 

 - Ed Kyle

Offline DfwRevolution

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #28 on: 05/02/2009 03:14 PM »
It isn't about "viewing pleasure".  Not for me personally.  (I can't remember the last time I watched a Delta II webcast.)  This is about keeping the public informed about what its government is up to.   - Ed Kyle

Then I suppose the real question is whether you believe a government is entitled to classify certain information in the interest of national security. In this situation, we know exactly what the government is "up to." They are launching a satellite which will help monitor for ballistic missile launches. What difference does it make if there is a webcast of the launch or not?

Online edkyle99

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #29 on: 05/02/2009 04:26 PM »
It isn't about "viewing pleasure".  Not for me personally.  (I can't remember the last time I watched a Delta II webcast.)  This is about keeping the public informed about what its government is up to.   - Ed Kyle

Then I suppose the real question is whether you believe a government is entitled to classify certain information in the interest of national security. In this situation, we know exactly what the government is "up to." They are launching a satellite which will help monitor for ballistic missile launches. What difference does it make if there is a webcast of the launch or not?

Some things should be classified.  Others should not.  There's no reason to keep a video of a launch out of public view.

If there isn't a video feed for the media, it won't be on the evening news or on YouTube or Yahoo news, etc..  If it isn't on the news, it won't exist as far as the general public is concerned - and not just the "spectacular" launch, but the entire program. 

Does the public know that MDA's budget is nearly $10 billion per year, and has been for years, but that it has only deployed about 24 long-range missile interceptors designed to protect only against a "limited" attack from only one country (North Korea) - a country that has yet to demonstrate an ICBM capability?  Does the public understand that follow-on plans to expand missile defense to Europe have more than seriously damaged U.S. relations with Russia - a country equipped, BTW, with far more than 24 ICBMs?  Etc.?  Has the public asked if this is a worthwhile allocation of defense money when its military is losing ground in a foreign war?

I want this launch to be on the news.  I want people to ask what it is, and why, and how much it costs.  I want independent experts to be called upon to analyze it, question it, and praise or criticize it.  I want the public to be informed, to decide for itself whether this program, and others like it, are worth the money.  I don't want MDA to hide something that doesn't need to be hidden (a video of a launch), leaving natural skeptics like me to wonder what is really being hidden.

 - Ed Kyle 
« Last Edit: 05/02/2009 04:36 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline Analyst

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #30 on: 05/02/2009 04:32 PM »
In this situation, we know exactly what the government is "up to."

Do you? This is what the government tells you, but do you really know? Probably they tell you the truth, but how are you sure? Would a webcast give you more information? Probably not. But this is not the point here. I am quite amazed by your statement. Just believing in the government doing the right things is, well, not what democracy is about.

Analyst

Offline WHAP

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #31 on: 05/03/2009 12:56 AM »
If it isn't on the news, it won't exist as far as the general public is concerned - and not just the "spectacular" launch, but the entire program. 

Does the public know that MDA's budget is nearly $10 billion per year, and has been for years, but that it has only deployed about 24 long-range missile interceptors designed to protect only against a "limited" attack from only one country (North Korea) - a country that has yet to demonstrate an ICBM capability?  Does the public understand that follow-on plans to expand missile defense to Europe have more than seriously damaged U.S. relations with Russia - a country equipped, BTW, with far more than 24 ICBMs?  Etc.?  Has the public asked if this is a worthwhile allocation of defense money when its military is losing ground in a foreign war?

I want this launch to be on the news.  I want people to ask what it is, and why, and how much it costs.  I want independent experts to be called upon to analyze it, question it, and praise or criticize it.  I want the public to be informed, to decide for itself whether this program, and others like it, are worth the money.  I don't want MDA to hide something that doesn't need to be hidden (a video of a launch), leaving natural skeptics like me to wonder what is really being hidden.

 - Ed Kyle 

If you honestly believe that news of this launch will lead the general public to ask those questions, then you and I have very different perspectives about the general public.  I've seen planetary and science missions that never showed up on CNN's web site, yet there was no public outcry about what NASA was up to.  If the general public was at all concerned about MDA, they would have asked questions two years ago when Putin started complaining about the US placing missiles and radars in Poland and the Czech Republic.  This issue came up again earlier this year when BHO made his trip to Europe.  It's been in the news multiple times, yet still no outcry.  Face it, Ed, the general public doesn't care, and news of a satellite launch isn't going to change that.  Your argument that this launch is going to change the public's mind is pretty weak.

No one here can say there's absolutely no reason for MDA to prohibit live feed of this launch, unless you know the reasons that decision was made.  While you may believe that it's unnecessary (and I am one of those people), it is not a statement of fact.
« Last Edit: 05/03/2009 12:56 AM by WHAP »
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Online edkyle99

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #32 on: 05/03/2009 04:51 AM »
Your argument that this launch is going to change the public's mind is pretty weak.

We'll never know, will we? 

 - Ed Kyle

Offline WHAP

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #33 on: 05/03/2009 06:19 AM »
You're right - that's my opinion.
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Offline HIPAR

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #34 on: 05/03/2009 12:15 PM »
Reminds me of this sequence from the The Right Stuff.  From the closed caption script:

OPERATOR, I'M CALLING
LONG DISTANCE
TO LOS ANGELES.
 
WHO ARE YOU CALLING?
 
THE PRESS.
THE SOUND BARRIER'S
FINALLY BEEN BROKEN.
 
NO! NO PRESS.
 
NO WORD GOES BEYOND
THE FLIGHT LINE.
 
THIS IS BIG NEWS!
 
WE NEED COVERAGE
OF THIS!
 
SORRY. NO PRESS.
 
THOSE ARE ORDERS.
NATIONAL SECURITY.
 
BUT THE WAR'S OVER.
 
LOOK, PAL,
THEY DON'T WANT
SOMEONE TO KNOW.
 
WHO?
 
THE RUSSIANS, MAYBE.
 
THE RUSSIANS?
THEY'RE OUR ALLIES.
 
WELL, ANYWAY,
SOMEONE FIGURED
IT OUT THAT WAY,

 
AND THAT'S
THE WAY IT IS.

---  CHAS  ???

Offline yinzer

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #35 on: 05/03/2009 10:05 PM »
Your argument that this launch is going to change the public's mind is pretty weak.

We'll never know, will we? 

One might look at how many other launch webcasts have spurred public investigations into national security programs.  The answer is: none of them.
California 2008 - taking rights from people and giving rights to chickens.

Offline Yeknom-Ecaps

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #36 on: 05/04/2009 03:03 AM »
Are there any media kits posted on-line?

Any images of the mission logo? Tried to do an Internet search but didn't turn any up with the search criteria I used.

Online edkyle99

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #37 on: 05/04/2009 03:28 AM »
Your argument that this launch is going to change the public's mind is pretty weak.

We'll never know, will we? 

One might look at how many other launch webcasts have spurred public investigations into national security programs.  The answer is: none of them.

I haven't said anything about "public investigations", or even about "changing the public's mind".  I am suggesting that trying to avoid public scrutiny while using the excuse of "secret" is a bad idea.  I am also suggesting that keeping a communication channel open to the public is a better idea.

In case no one has noticed, the missile defense program has shown signs of beginning to be redirected under the new administration toward shorter range missile defense.  No howls of protest from the public, but then again, they don't even know what's going on, right?

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 05/04/2009 03:31 AM by edkyle99 »

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #38 on: 05/04/2009 04:37 AM »
I think more transparancy could only be a good thing.  The Fed agencies are customers and so public servants accountable to 'us, the people'  What if they decide to install a bunch of first-strike weaponry behind the scenes citing 'secrecy', but which could provoke a nuclear war.  I think it's critical for citizens to keep tabs on this.

Online eeergo

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Re: Delta II - STSS ATRR - May 5
« Reply #39 on: 05/04/2009 12:38 PM »
Are there any media kits posted on-line?

Any images of the mission logo? Tried to do an Internet search but didn't turn any up with the search criteria I used.

No press kits that I found apart from the one already posted: http://www.ulalaunch.com/launch/STSS_ATRR/STSSATRR_MOB.PDF

WRT the mission logo, they have one in the lower part of the front cover.
-DaviD-

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