Author Topic: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011  (Read 413001 times)

Offline Nickolai

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #620 on: 11/10/2011 05:24 PM »
A young engineer receives 14 000 roubles (note about 500 dollars).

This can't be serious.

Yes, it is...

Consider this job opening at Khrunichev: http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=192

Заработная плата: от 20 тысяч рублей в месяц. -> Salary: from 20000 rubles per month

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31222
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 9494
  • Likes Given: 298
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #621 on: 11/10/2011 05:35 PM »
Unless specificallt designed for it (like TDRSS) spacecraft can't relay other spacecraft signals

Offline sdsds

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5477
  • "With peace and hope for all mankind."
  • Seattle
  • Liked: 576
  • Likes Given: 676
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #622 on: 11/10/2011 05:45 PM »
USAF still maintains the Maui Optical Station?  Surely its telescope could (at a minimum) determine whether FG is tumbling or stabilized, the deployment status of the solar panels, etc?
-- sdsds --

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31222
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 9494
  • Likes Given: 298
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #623 on: 11/10/2011 05:48 PM »
Spacecraft have unique frequencies for their transmitters and receivers.  More than likely, all other spacecraft are deaf to Phobos-Grunt.

Offline JimO

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
  • Texas, USA
  • Liked: 215
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #624 on: 11/10/2011 05:49 PM »
What's the potential timeline today, and tomorrow, for burn-1 and burn-2 if control is established? Surely somebody at Lavochkin has generated 'burn targets' for 1-day, 2-day, and 3-day on-orbit delays.

Offline racshot65

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2580
  • Aaron Kalair
  • Coventry, England
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #625 on: 11/10/2011 05:54 PM »
From MSL press conference happening now

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15026.msg827813#msg827813

Quote
Q: Has Russia requested assistance for Phobos Grunt?

A: We have offered assistance and if they need it we will offer use of our communication network
« Last Edit: 11/10/2011 06:01 PM by racshot65 »

Offline JimO

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
  • Texas, USA
  • Liked: 215
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #626 on: 11/10/2011 05:55 PM »
The authoritative data on spacecraft propellant is from anatoly Zak
at http://www.russianspaceweb.com/phobos_grunt_design.html

and he lists 10,100 kg of prop in the main propulsion unit.

Using the ox/fuel mass ratio of the STS OMS, 1.65 to 1,
I calculate
N2O4     6290  kg [using proper rounding accuracy & significant digits]
Heptyl   3810   kg

The cruise stage carries an additional 1050 kg total prop. The return stage design had 40kg of prop several years ago but has doubled in mass since then, so perhaps it has 80 kg now.

Grand total, about 11160 kg, eleven metric tons of nastiness.

The N2O4 freezes at -11C, which could happen, but the heptyl freezing point looks way, WAY too cold for it to freeze. 
« Last Edit: 11/10/2011 06:02 PM by JimO »

Offline jwestervelt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #627 on: 11/10/2011 06:07 PM »
Spacecraft have unique frequencies for their transmitters and receivers.  More than likely, all other spacecraft are deaf to Phobos-Grunt.

This is correct.  This is likely why someone previously asked about ISS as it has an amateur radio station on board that could likely be used to communicate with the spacecraft.

Offline BrunoQuiocca

  • Member
  • Posts: 19
  • Brazil
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #628 on: 11/10/2011 06:15 PM »
A young engineer receives 14 000 roubles (note about 500 dollars).

This can't be serious.

Yes, it is...

Consider this job opening at Khrunichev: http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=192

Заработная плата: от 20 тысяч рублей в месяц. -> Salary: from 20000 rubles per month
My opinion, as a mechanical engineer student: Revolting.
Seriously, how on earth they want to keep good engineers if any small company around the world pays easily 6 to 8 times that money to a rookie? And russian engineers are seen as good ones.

Online rdale

  • Assistant to the Chief Meteorologist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9891
  • Lansing MI
  • Liked: 236
  • Likes Given: 21
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #629 on: 11/10/2011 06:17 PM »
ISS as it has an amateur radio station on board that could likely be used to communicate with the spacecraft.

I'm not sure what you mean - that somehow the station crew can talk to Phobos with their amateur radio?

Offline jwestervelt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #630 on: 11/10/2011 06:35 PM »
ISS as it has an amateur radio station on board that could likely be used to communicate with the spacecraft.

I'm not sure what you mean - that somehow the station crew can talk to Phobos with their amateur radio?

They have a transceiver onboard that can, at the least, communicate on the uplink frequencies previously posted in this thread by SiberianTiger:

Transmission - 7,159.72-7,176.28 MHz
Receiving - 8,412.268-8,431.1 MHz

The transmission frequency is right in the middle of the 40M band.  The receiving frequency, however, is out of band with regards to US amateur bands, however most transceivers would still be able to receive these frequencies, just not transmit.

There are computers onboard ISS attached to this transceiver for the purpose of facilitating digital transmission modes.  I'm fairly certain, though not positive, that they are using QPSK as a digital mode, so it should be trivial to initiate communication to the spacecraft from ISS provided that it is visible and that ISS could reorient their antenna to track the spacecraft.

Offline Nick

  • Member
  • Posts: 84
  • UK
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #631 on: 11/10/2011 06:35 PM »
This is correct.  This is likely why someone previously asked about ISS as it has an amateur radio station on board that could likely be used to communicate with the spacecraft.

'Fraid not. As far as I know,  the amateur radio station on ISS (ARISS) is a voice and amateur packet station operating only in the 145Mhz and 440MHz bands (VHF & UHF). Someone posted here earlier that Phobos-Grunt uplinks and downlinks in the 7MHz and 8Mhz bands (HF). I don't believe there's an HF station on board  ISS. So no go.

And that's even without worrying about whether the ARISS equipment (a commercial piece of amateur radio kit) could be configured to provide a suitable signal format.

Offline HammerD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 131
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #632 on: 11/10/2011 06:36 PM »
A young engineer receives 14 000 roubles (note about 500 dollars).

This can't be serious.

Yes, it is...

Consider this job opening at Khrunichev: http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=192

Заработная плата: от 20 тысяч рублей в месяц. -> Salary: from 20000 rubles per month
My opinion, as a mechanical engineer student: Revolting.
Seriously, how on earth they want to keep good engineers if any small company around the world pays easily 6 to 8 times that money to a rookie? And russian engineers are seen as good ones.

You have to remember that in many places in Russia and Ukraine (I'm not saying all) many things are much cheaper.

For example in Kiev most food is way cheaper, especially dairy products, than for example in Canada.

Transportation is also very cheap - in Kiev it's about 30 cents to ride the subway or take a bus.  In Toronto it is about $2.75 for the subway.

My wife worked as a flight attendant in Ukraine and got about the equivalent of $400/month and on domestic flights they didn't pay her anything for a full 10 hour shift.

Salaries (and thus standard of living) is lower there (for the average person).  But over there in Russia and Ukraine you mostly have people that are very rich and people that are poor or just making enough to get by.  Not a huge middle class.  If it looks like there are middle class people there it is because they are still decent people but they wouldn't be "middle class" as we would think of them from here in N. America.  They would be more like poor or just on the edge.

Online Chris Bergin

Getting out of hand folks. Let's focus on the effort of getting the spacecraft back on track.

Offline Svetoslav

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 902
  • Bulgaria
  • Liked: 292
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #634 on: 11/10/2011 06:45 PM »
EDIT: Saw Chris' message only later

OK... I am back as promised...

As a young person who works in an institute in the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences - our PhD student scholarship is equal to 450 levs. Young assistants who have their PhD degrees start with even less - this may sound impossible to you, but I assure you - it's true.

And it's not that much. 450 levs is about 300 dollars... A bread cost one lev. A cup of beer is 2 levs... The rent for the room I'm currently living in is 150 levs. A ticket for a cinema - 3D movie is between 13 and 15 levs...

« Last Edit: 11/10/2011 06:46 PM by Svetoslav »

Offline Vladi

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #635 on: 11/10/2011 06:52 PM »
Quote
Две МНА расположены по бокам аппарата и закрывают собой почти всю сферу, должны использоваться для сброса ТМИ на землю, это те о которых говорили на картинке. Еще две МНА стоят на МДУ снизу, как я понял, именно до них сейчас пытаются добить сигнал. Но так как включений не было и СББ остался на месте,МНА затенены. В этом посте высказано мое понимание на текущее время. Завтра я могу конкретно все расписать с картинками, получив инфу от разработчиков АФС.

The two LGA on the sides of the spacecraft cover almost the entire sphere around the spacecraft and are used for sending telemetry to the ground, these could be seen on the pictures. Two more LGAs are placed underneath the MDU (cruise engine) and as far as I understand they are trying to send signals to those. But because there was no engine start and the droptank is still there, the LGAs are not visible. This post covers my understanding of the problem at this point in time. Tomorrow I could tell you more once I get info from the developers of AFS.

My 2 cents: The low gain antennas are at the bottom of the spacecraft as this is the part that will point at Earth during the departure of the spacecraft towards Mars. However because of the droptank they are covered before the first burn. The high gain antennas are not deployed for some reason, probably they were too fragile for the initial burn? It appears the design simply did not take into account inability to fire the MDU the first time (or they just decided during the design phase that a problem at this point will be almost impossible to resolve even with working communications??). So now they probably rely on chance reflections and enough signal strength to get somehow through half a meter of hydrazine and the steel sides of the droptank??

Offline jwestervelt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #636 on: 11/10/2011 07:03 PM »
This is correct.  This is likely why someone previously asked about ISS as it has an amateur radio station on board that could likely be used to communicate with the spacecraft.

'Fraid not. As far as I know,  the amateur radio station on ISS (ARISS) is a voice and amateur packet station operating only in the 145Mhz and 440MHz bands (VHF & UHF). Someone posted here earlier that Phobos-Grunt uplinks and downlinks in the 7MHz and 8Mhz bands (HF). I don't believe there's an HF station on board  ISS. So no go.

And that's even without worrying about whether the ARISS equipment (a commercial piece of amateur radio kit) could be configured to provide a suitable signal format.

Unfortunately, I believe that you are correct.  Antenna WA3 does support HF, but the documentation that I see only indicates that they have dual-band (VHF/UHF) transceivers on board.  I guess that rules out ISS intervention.   :-\

Offline Svetoslav

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 902
  • Bulgaria
  • Liked: 292
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #637 on: 11/10/2011 07:03 PM »
The inevitable has happened. People have started talking about being fired and resignations...

http://interfax.ru/politics/news.asp?id=216291

According to an anonymous expert in the space industry the failure with Phobos-Grunt unties the hands of the leadership of the space industry to reform it. Also, many people may lose their jobs.

Another article, on RIA Novosti, mentions that astronomers will try to evaluate the status of the spacecraft

Offline Pheogh

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #638 on: 11/10/2011 07:07 PM »
USAF still maintains the Maui Optical Station?  Surely its telescope could (at a minimum) determine whether FG is tumbling or stabilized, the deployment status of the solar panels, etc?

I was wondering the same thing? Anyone?

If there was some kind of off-nominal separation, damage to the spacecraft or other anomalous situation (tumbling) couldn't it be verified optically?

Offline Svetoslav

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 902
  • Bulgaria
  • Liked: 292
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #639 on: 11/10/2011 07:09 PM »
UPDATE from Novosti Kosmonavtiki : Next Pass above Baykonur in 20:20 UTC, which means ten minutes after Posting my message

Tags: