Author Topic: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011  (Read 269570 times)

Offline yaroslav

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #560 on: 11/10/2011 07:27 AM »
more info: there were no any telemetry...

Offline yaroslav

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #561 on: 11/10/2011 07:32 AM »
http://interfax.ru/news.asp?id=216152
ESA will try to help to download telemetry from FG

"We shall use our stations located in Kuru and Australia"

Offline yamato

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #562 on: 11/10/2011 07:35 AM »
no telemetry? didnīt they download anything?

Offline yaroslav

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #563 on: 11/10/2011 07:56 AM »
looks like - nothing at all

only rumor about some "raw data", but it is only a rumor

Offline Liss

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #564 on: 11/10/2011 07:58 AM »
My little advice...
Discard all reports on Fobos-Grunt unless they directly quote a named official. Just wait.

Offline yamato

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #565 on: 11/10/2011 08:06 AM »
donīt worry, I treat rumors as they deserve to :)

Offline yaroslav

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #566 on: 11/10/2011 08:24 AM »
My little advice...
Discard all reports on Fobos-Grunt unless they directly quote a named official. Just wait.

it is only a rumor  ;)

and  if you take a look at http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10631&start=3585 .....

Offline BrunoQuiocca

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #567 on: 11/10/2011 08:46 AM »
Apparently (according to Vesti) there were 2 communication sessions already - late evening 9th and on the 10th of Nov at night. 2 consecutive orbits I presume?

http://www.ria.ru/science/20111110/485317739.html


Yes. One heading NE, and another about 2 to 3 hours later, heading SE.

Something like this
« Last Edit: 11/10/2011 09:04 AM by BrunoQuiocca »

Offline Liss

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #568 on: 11/10/2011 09:15 AM »
Two attempts to hear from Fobos-Grunt, to be precise.

Offline Mikha

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #569 on: 11/10/2011 10:18 AM »
I can't guarantee that below is all true, but (for me personally) this guy proven to be quite reliable source of information:
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=832206#832206
Quote
Just a short report. [right after the launch] we've got telemetry from the 2nd stage of Zenit launcher, it shows normal separation. After the first loop the one and only [SC] telemetry session has been received, it showed deployment of the solar arrays, constant solar orientation and normal work of all systems. After the second loop we found the SC on the initial orbit, it was silent. No telemetry since that. Previous night at Baikonur there were failed attempts to restart the onboard computer. This attempts will be repeated this night.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2011 10:22 AM by Mikha »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #570 on: 11/10/2011 10:33 AM »
I wonder, do we need two threads?

One for facts and news.

The other for speculation, discussion, ect.

The reason I am asking this is people like Jim O, Liss, ect are providing excellent updates on what is going on, but at the same time there are questions and thoughts that might be better handled in a different thread.

For instance. I keep wondering in the back of my mind the following.

There are really two types of propellant tanks on this mission. Those that are used at Mars and those that are used for Earth departure. One would assume that the Mars tanks are built to prevent freezing using heaters, insulation, ect. Since the tanks used for leaving earth are used and discarded in the first few hours of flight they have no need for that extra insulation, heaters, and thermal control. So how long in LEO until they start having problems with fuel freezing preventing earth departure?

Second, Jim keeps comparing this to USA 193. Is it really the same, the propellant tank was buried inside of USA 193 providing protect against reentry. Phobos-Grunt's tanks are not buried in such a manner. Will the exposed tanks really behave in a similar manner on reentry? I suspect with the exposed tanks they will breach early and burn? But that is pure speculation, and I am not trying to take a swipe at Jim O here.

And now with that rambling I will report myself to Chris...
In case of FIRE, exit building before Tweeting about it!

Online Galactic Penguin SST

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The newest theory conveyed by a poster at NK is that the spacecraft rebooted on the second orbit and cannot communicate with the ground stations because the spacecraft was reset to the mode before launch (a bit similar to the sudden loss of contact with Spirit on Mars back in 2004). Right now P-G is within the view of ESA's ground station at Kourou, so fingers crossed...
Hmm....where can I apply for the job of United Launch Alliance internet cheerleader?

Online Galactic Penguin SST

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The newest theory conveyed by a poster at NK is that the spacecraft rebooted on the second orbit and cannot communicate with the ground stations because the spacecraft was reset to the mode before launch (a bit similar to the sudden loss of contact with Spirit on Mars back in 2004). Right now P-G is within the view of ESA's ground station at Kourou, so fingers crossed...

Looks like the latest attempt to restore communications from Kourou has failed. By now someone on the NK forum already claimed that they will shoot the darned thing down next Monday if the mission ultimately cannot be saved....  :-X
Hmm....where can I apply for the job of United Launch Alliance internet cheerleader?


Online William Graham

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #574 on: 11/10/2011 12:58 PM »
By now someone on the NK forum already claimed that they will shoot the darned thing down next Monday if the mission ultimately cannot be saved....  :-X

Highly unlikely. Russia has no ASAT capacity. Nor do they have ABMs that can be modified to act as ASATs, like the SM-3 could.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2011 12:58 PM by GW_Simulations »

Offline Vladi

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #575 on: 11/10/2011 01:03 PM »
Аппарат молчит, телеметрию за время ночных сеансов связи не получили. Причины проблем по прежнему не известны. Во время следующих сеансов связи будет произведена попытка послать команду и перезагрузить аппарат.

That is from http://phobos.cosmos.ru/index.php?id=388&view=single_thread&cat_uid=1&conf_uid=1&thread_uid=21&page=14

Written by a guy who obviously is involved in the program and was the first to announce something was wrong. Basically the message says that there has been no contact with the spacecraft yesterday at all, it is not sending any telemetry. The reason for that is completely unknown, they will try to send a message for rebooting the spacecraft.

The same guy said before that in the very beginning that just after reaching orbit they had contact with the craft, it was having control of attitude and its solar arrays were open. Something happened when the craft started the first burn.

Offline Skylab

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Offline Jim

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #577 on: 11/10/2011 02:10 PM »
.... according to the Space Review (http://thespacereview.com/article/1966/1) Phobos-Grunt "is the heaviest solar system explorer ever (more than twice the second-heaviest, Cassini).", not just the heaviest built in the former USSR.

I don't accept that claim, since the probe's mass is presented in LEO parking orbit, prior to insertion on the trans-Mars route. More than half of that mass disappears by the time it's on interplanetary cruise.


I agree.

If one were to compare inserted LEO mass, the Magellan deployment from the shuttle was heavier (18 metric-ton) .  The  13.5-metric-ton Phobos-Grunt spacecraft includes the propellant used for TMI and a tank that is jettisoned between burns.  It also propellant for MOI.  This is no different than the IUS for TVI and STAR-48 motor for VOI on Magellan. 

So a true measure of the size/mass of spacecraft would be its mass after leaving LEO

Sorry to rehash this

Offline JimO

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #578 on: 11/10/2011 02:18 PM »
Quote from: Vladi link=topic=15610.msg827696#msg827696
... Something happened when the craft started the first burn.

excellent input, thank you.

As to what "happened" at burn-1 ignition time, are we satisfied that Brazil observers saw NOTHING -- no flash, no indication of ANY plume -- so it's safe to conclude the failure was on the commanding side, not the engine side?

« Last Edit: 11/10/2011 02:21 PM by JimO »

Offline JimO

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Re: LIVE: Zenit-2SB launch with Phobos-Grunt - November 8, 2011
« Reply #579 on: 11/10/2011 02:20 PM »
...Sorry to rehash this

No 'rehash', I'm still not satisfied with specific numbers on the propellant load -- since I'm anticipating it all coming down on our heads, now. Sadly.


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