Author Topic: Orbital's Antares Development Update Thread  (Read 849216 times)

Offline strangequark

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #520 on: 07/27/2010 04:02 PM »
RL-10 lacks the thrust, simple as that.  The RD-0120 will be a fine engine. Of course you realize that this now means that the Taurus II will run main engines from both russian super heavy lift rockets.

RD-0124 is only a couple of RL-10's of thrust or so.

Offline Downix

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #521 on: 07/27/2010 04:05 PM »
RL-10 lacks the thrust, simple as that.  The RD-0120 will be a fine engine. Of course you realize that this now means that the Taurus II will run main engines from both russian super heavy lift rockets.

RD-0124 is only a couple of RL-10's of thrust or so.
My goof.  But it is still cheaper to use 1 engine than 4.  If the RL-60 had been completed, it likely would have been at least considered.  But the RD-0124 is not fully cryogenic, and uses the same fuel as the AJ-26, so makes logistics simpler.
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #522 on: 07/27/2010 05:18 PM »
Orbital was initially asking $3B to manrate the Taurus II.

Uhhh... not quite an accurate quote.  We said (rather, Frank and I have been saying - this is NOT the result of exhaustive planning and analysis) that developing a commercial crew transportation to ISS capability is likely to cost 5 times as much as develping a commercial cargo to ISS capability.  Now, we (Orbital, NASA, Virginia) are spending about $600M in Taurus II, Cygnus, WFF, COTS demo flight etc. etc. so the possible price tag for the equivalent is about $3B, but that includes not only Taurus II mods, but LAS, spacecraft, crew-friendly launch pad and service tower somewhere - Florida? (the WFF Taurus II operations does not use a service structure at all), etc. etc. - see the "oh, so you want tires with that car?" message in another thread.

Taurus II "manrating" ("personrating"?) by itself may be one or two $100's of the $3B, mostly redundant avionics, added instrumentation and added structural design/testing both at Dnipropetrovsk (S1) and Chandler (S2).  I don't think the NK-33's need much additional work, except perhaps added instrumentation.  If you MUST add a dedicated, instrumented flight to acheive this rating, add another $80M - $100M or so.
« Last Edit: 07/27/2010 05:19 PM by antonioe »
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #523 on: 07/27/2010 06:44 PM »
Now, for something completely different...

Yesterday I left the office to go home, turning right out of Steeplechase Drive onto Rt 28 North - my house is in the opposite direction, but they've partially closed down the intersection so now I have to drive north about 0.75 miles to reverse direction at the Nokes Blvd overpass (don't try to find these changes on Google Earth - they are so new the pictures still show the old traffic light intersections).

As I turn North, I see something happening on the right curb, just before the overpass... road construction?... no, it's a large load parked to the side...

As I get closer I realize it's a large tank, white, with lots of shiny hardware sticking out of it... an Oxygen tank?  For a Hospital?  A factory?  No... it's waaay too big...
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #524 on: 07/27/2010 07:30 PM »
So I get closer... yes, it's an oxygen tank... why, it looks like a LIQUID Oxygen tank... actually, it's a HUMONGOUS liquid oxygen tank.... Jeesh, you could fill a Taurus II from it...
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #525 on: 07/27/2010 07:32 PM »
I pull over to a side... OMYGOSH!!!! It *IS* our LOX tank!!!!
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #526 on: 07/27/2010 07:35 PM »
I pick up the phone - Marcy Taylor is not there.  Kurt Eberly doesn't answer.  Finally I get Brent Collins: "yes, it's our tank, the one MARS bought from down south... it's been on the road for several weeks now... I'm told they are tying to find a way through Maryland... no, it's just pure coincidence that it's stuck less than a mile from Orbital Headquarters... I'll try to find out more about it."
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Offline neilh

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #527 on: 07/27/2010 07:38 PM »
Thank you very much for the updates, Antonio! It seems like in the past few years Orbital has been the spaceflight company that we've heard the least about, and it's really great to hear about the progress you all have been making.
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Online mmeijeri

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #528 on: 07/27/2010 07:38 PM »
Great pictures! Lots of interesting bits sticking out from the tank, any chance we'll get to see an annotated version?
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #529 on: 07/27/2010 07:39 PM »
Orbital was initially asking $3B to manrate the Taurus II.

Uhhh... not quite an accurate quote.  We said (rather, Frank and I have been saying - this is NOT the result of exhaustive planning and analysis) that developing a commercial crew transportation to ISS capability is likely to cost 5 times as much as develping a commercial cargo to ISS capability.  Now, we (Orbital, NASA, Virginia) are spending about $600M in Taurus II, Cygnus, WFF, COTS demo flight etc. etc. so the possible price tag for the equivalent is about $3B, but that includes not only Taurus II mods, but LAS, spacecraft, crew-friendly launch pad and service tower somewhere - Florida? (the WFF Taurus II operations does not use a service structure at all), etc. etc. - see the "oh, so you want tires with that car?" message in another thread.

Taurus II "manrating" ("personrating"?) by itself may be one or two $100's of the $3B, mostly redundant avionics, added instrumentation and added structural design/testing both at Dnipropetrovsk (S1) and Chandler (S2).  I don't think the NK-33's need much additional work, except perhaps added instrumentation.  If you MUST add a dedicated, instrumented flight to acheive this rating, add another $80M - $100M or so.

OK, thanks for the clarification. Very informative. I said "manrate" but I actually meant $3B of funding for commercial crew. But from your comments, I see that you are not asking $3B of funding for commercial crew either.

I suppose that you should take out from your total, the costs of the launch pad and the service tower which could possibly be funded under the NASA launch support and infrastructure modernization program of the Senate bill. In other words, I would imagine that these costs would probably not be part of the commercial crew development funds.   

« Last Edit: 07/27/2010 08:15 PM by yg1968 »

Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #530 on: 07/27/2010 07:43 PM »
Then I get this e-mail from Marcy:

"The LO2 tank is currently parked on Rt 28 at the Nokes Blvd exit.  The transporters have a problem with the turn table at the back of the carrier.

The plan is for Digging & Rigging to lift the tank in its current location to allow the pins to be re-welded at the rear of the turn table.  After this is complete, they will move the tank ~10 miles to a less congested location and conduct a more thorough inspection.  If everything is ok, the tank will continue on its way but there is a potential that they will need a replacement turntable (contingency plans are being worked by the transporter).

The goal is to get to WFF by Friday so they can get on the Island - otherwise they will have to stand down until after August 4 due to a launch next week.

Once moving, I understand that the tank will take Rt 7 over to 81N and then head up to Hagerstown.  From there it isn't so clear but we are assuming it will continue on 70E to the Baltimore beltway.  Still waiting for confirmation as to whether it will head to the shore via Delaware or over the Bay Bridge.   Virginia is requiring they move during the day while Maryland is requiring they move at night."

This begs the question: how can they cross the Virginia/Maryland border legally???
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #531 on: 07/27/2010 07:51 PM »
Additional WFF pictures from the 310 - with the sun on our backs this time:
« Last Edit: 07/27/2010 07:51 PM by antonioe »
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Offline neilh

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #532 on: 07/27/2010 07:52 PM »
Not Merlin 1C vacuum?  :)

I've sometimes had the sense that if any company were to be the first external company to utilize SpaceX's engines, it'd probably be Orbital. ;)
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Offline MP99

Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #533 on: 07/27/2010 07:57 PM »
This begs the question: how can they cross the Virginia/Maryland border legally???

That one went right over my head...


actually, it's a HUMONGOUS liquid oxygen tank.... Jeesh, you could fill a Taurus II from it...

Is that to be taken at face value - similar capacity to the LOX tank of a single Taurus II?

How is the Taurus II first stage brought in to MARS?

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Offline Jose

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #534 on: 07/27/2010 09:24 PM »
This begs the question: how can they cross the Virginia/Maryland border legally???


At dawn or sunset, depending on the direction?


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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #535 on: 07/27/2010 09:30 PM »
Hmm, state laws interfering with Interstate Commerce?
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Offline charlieb

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #536 on: 07/28/2010 01:21 AM »
How long of a tank is that???

If you go up to Deleware - that's going to be quite a haul - and then what are the restrictions through Deleware? 

An overnight drive through MD and then park it on the side of the road just south of Pocomoke City and wait for the sun to appear.  My question is how are you going to get it to the beach? - down Rt13 then make the left towards Wallops, or take the back-roads.

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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #537 on: 07/28/2010 01:27 AM »

How is the Taurus II first stage brought in to MARS?


By rail from Dnepro to Oleksandrivka (the big commercial port just south of Odessa) then by ship to Wilmington DE then by road to the HIF.  We've already driven a mock-up first stage from Wilmington to the island using a TWO-turntable trailer.  Quite a show, some of the corners are QUITE tight!...

Trivial pursuit (Taurus II edition) question #17: the S1 passes through Odessa (Ukraine) on its way from Dnipropetrovsk to Oleksandrivka, and also through Odessa (Delaware) on its way from Wilmington to Wallops!

I believe the LOX tank in the picture is bigger and heavier than a Taurus II first stage (actually, what comes from Dnipropetrovsk it is not a complete first stage - just the tanks, so it is somewhat shorter and considerably lighter than the full stage)
« Last Edit: 07/28/2010 01:29 AM by antonioe »
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #538 on: 07/28/2010 01:30 AM »
How long of a tank is that???

how are you going to get it to the beach? - down Rt13 then make the left towards Wallops, or take the back-roads.

Hmmm... I'll ask Marcy if she knows...
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Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #539 on: 07/28/2010 01:49 AM »

How is the Taurus II first stage brought in to MARS?


By rail from Dnepro to Oleksandrivka (the big commercial port just south of Odessa) then by ship to Wilmington DE then by road to the HIF.  We've already driven a mock-up first stage from Wilmington to the island using a TWO-turntable trailer.  Quite a show, some of the corners are QUITE tight!...

Trivial pursuit (Taurus II edition) question #17: the S1 passes through Odessa (Ukraine) on its way from Dnipropetrovsk to Oleksandrivka, and also through Odessa (Delaware) on its way from Wilmington to Wallops!

I believe the LOX tank in the picture is bigger and heavier than a Taurus II first stage (actually, what comes from Dnipropetrovsk it is not a complete first stage - just the tanks, so it is somewhat shorter and considerably lighter than the full stage)

I thought the stage was going to be shipped to Norfolk, then transferred by barge to WFF.  I understand you could not truck it from Norfolk as the Chesapeak bay-bridge tunnel is probably too narrow (and with a two way/lane tunnel it would be hairy)
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