Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 381688 times)

Offline jimgagnon

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #765 on: 05/11/2010 05:23 PM »
Lubos Motls (motls.blogspot.com), a very competent physicist...

...and vehement skeptic of anything non-conventional. You need people like him in the discussion, but if you always listen to him, you'll never advance the state of science. Not surprised at all he doesn't like the M-E effect, as it messes up his pretty notions of locality.

Can't wait for Stardrive and Woodward to get that air-table demo working, just to watch people like Motls squirm.

Offline Sith

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #766 on: 05/11/2010 07:15 PM »
Lubos Motls (motls.blogspot.com), a very competent physicist, has had several diatribes where he has described belief in the Mach Effect as the source of inertia as the GRT equivalent of belief in the luminiferous aether, on the basis that it violates the fundamental understanding of GRT that gravity propogates, like all other forces, at the speed of light.

"The differences between the Special and General Relativity are:

1. In SR light travels in a straight line. In GR light ray is bent.

2. In SR the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time are not merged. In GR the curvature of the four-dimensional spacetime continuum defines the deflection of light and the orbit of the planets, eliminating gravitation as a force.

3. The SR is based on relatively simple mathematical equations, The Lorentz Transformations, which leads to 'length contraction,' 'time dilation,' and 'relativity of simultaneity.' GR describes spacetime through a long series of highly abstract mathematical equations.

May I add that what SR and GR have in common is that they are both nonsense."

;)

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #767 on: 05/11/2010 07:25 PM »
Can't wait for Stardrive and Woodward to get that air-table demo working, just to watch people like Motls squirm.

what??? I had not heard about that!! Fantastic... I am crossing my fingers... any timeline?

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #768 on: 05/11/2010 08:20 PM »
Lubos Motls (motls.blogspot.com), a very competent physicist...

...and vehement skeptic of anything non-conventional. You need people like him in the discussion, but if you always listen to him, you'll never advance the state of science. Not surprised at all he doesn't like the M-E effect, as it messes up his pretty notions of locality.

Can't wait for Stardrive and Woodward to get that air-table demo working, just to watch people like Motls squirm.

of course I wasn't suggesting that Motls is right about that, merely correcting mlorrey in his assertion that the Mach Effect as a souce of inertia is accepted or that the critics don't know physics.

Offline Cinder

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #769 on: 05/11/2010 09:05 PM »
what??? I had not heard about that!! Fantastic... I am crossing my fingers... any timeline?
Only responding because P.March is likely too busy to keep up day-to-day: IIRC it's not exactly a plan, but it is one of the ideal ways it would be demo'd.

Offline jimgagnon

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #770 on: 05/11/2010 09:51 PM »
Can't wait for Stardrive and Woodward to get that air-table demo working, just to watch people like Motls squirm.
what??? I had not heard about that!! Fantastic... I am crossing my fingers... any timeline?

Don't hold your breath. Paul March has a day job, Woodward is still battling lung cancer, and neither are funded properly. I wish the Advanced Propulsion Concepts group were still together and that they would write these guys a nice $2M check every year to conclusively demonstrate the effect.

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #771 on: 05/12/2010 04:50 AM »
“Hi Paul. I hope you are not too nationalistic because I am brazilian and I would like to take part in the exploration of the solar system (and beyond) hopefully using the M-E propulsion system. :)  Not that Earth nationalities will have much importance once the final frontier is open.”

Anybody with a common interest in the exploration and colonization of the universe by humanity, and for the betterment of same in my book already has a ticket to ride the M-E express!  That is the major reason that Jim W and I have kept the communications lines on this M-E work open to forums like NASASpaceflight.com.

“Anyway, technical questions aside... looking back, do you guys have any regret about ever mentioning in papers (or even in internet forums!) the possible APPLICATION of the M-E effect as a propellantless field propulsion system? Has such an "outrageous" idea affected support and even worse, funding on the research?”

In regards to getting research grants the answer is a yes.  However there is no point in backing away from what this research is all about and that is overcoming the tryanny of the rocket equation!  That is why Jim and I run our respective R&D shops from our own resources and on our own time lines for it gives us the freedom to do and publically say what is right instead of what is politically correct.

“Don't hold your breath. Paul March has a day job, Woodward is still battling lung cancer, and neither are funded properly. I wish the Advanced Propulsion Concepts group were still together and that they would write these guys a nice $2M check every year to conclusively demonstrate the effect.”

Only when pigs can fly...  Sorry for that one, but getting funding for this type of bleeding edge R&D work has proven near impossible to obtain.  I guess it's because if we are successful, many a sacred cow and career is going to get gored, at least the critics of this work seem to think so.  Be that as it may, Woodward has set forth a very rational, "no new physics" approach to his "origins of inertia" and Mach-Effect conjectures based on Dennis Sciama's initial work in the 1950s and 60s on the origins of inertia question, Lorentz invariance, SR and GRT, with the last three elements being accepted theoretical physics constructs by most practicing physicists.  The only thing new that Jim W derived was the gravinertial transient terms that are hidden away in Newton's third law, and the recent possibility of reworking the particle physics “Standard Model” into a rational and non-contradictory theoretical construct that finally takes into account the origins of inertial mass for elementary particles for the first time.  These M-E gravinertial transient reaction terms can be as large, or larger than the forces that create them.  And they appear to be engineerable for propulsion and other yet to be determined purposes as well.  Getting to the M-E demonstration phase though has taken much longer than one would have liked due to the lack of reliable M-E analysis tools, engineering implementation details, and available time, but until we can float an M-E test article into the conference room, or at least run it across the air-hockey table under RC control, we are stuck pushing the M-E cart forward using our own resources on a time available basis. 

BTW, Jim W. is building up a new more robust shuttler test article as we speak, and I'm building up a new Mach-Lorentz Thruster (MLT) prototype based on some N4700 COTS caps that should produce at least an order of magnitude higher thrust than my last successful test article, the Mach-2MHz, which generated up to 0.5 gram-force, (~5.0 milli-Newton).  As to when these new test articles will see first light, my guess is sometime this summer, barring unforeseen time sinks at work for me, or health issues with Jim.  (Jim W. is currently in remission from his lung cancer at the moment.  Let's us hope that it stays that way...!)
Star-Drive

Offline Sith

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #772 on: 05/12/2010 02:12 PM »
Quote
Anybody with a common interest in the exploration and colonization of the universe by humanity, and for the betterment of same in my book already has a ticket to ride the M-E express!  That is the major reason that Jim W and I have kept the communications lines on this M-E work open to forums like NASASpaceflight.com.
I would like to join the work after I graduate from university.

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #773 on: 05/12/2010 03:45 PM »
Woodward has set forth a very rational, "no new physics" approach to his "origins of inertia" and Mach-Effect conjectures based on Dennis Sciama's initial work in the 1950s and 60s on the origins of inertia question,
For the newbs like me, to understand the relevance of a particular critique, start here:

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1953MNRAS.113...34S/0000035.000.html

Quote
Lorentz invariance, SR and GRT, with the last three elements being accepted theoretical physics constructs by most practicing physicists.  The only thing new that Jim W derived was the gravinertial transient terms that are hidden away in Newton's third law,

then go here and start reading Woodward:

http://physics.fullerton.edu/Woodward.html

Quote

 and the recent possibility of reworking the particle physics “Standard Model” into a rational and non-contradictory theoretical construct that finally takes into account the origins of inertial mass for elementary particles for the first time.  These M-E gravinertial transient reaction terms can be as large, or larger than the forces that create them.  And they appear to be engineerable for propulsion and other yet to be determined purposes as well.  Getting to the M-E demonstration phase though has taken much longer than one would have liked due to the lack of reliable M-E analysis tools, engineering implementation details, and available time, but until we can float an M-E test article into the conference room, or at least run it across the air-hockey table under RC control, we are stuck pushing the M-E cart forward using our own resources on a time available basis. 

BTW, Jim W. is building up a new more robust shuttler test article as we speak, and I'm building up a new Mach-Lorentz Thruster (MLT) prototype based on some N4700 COTS caps that should produce at least an order of magnitude higher thrust than my last successful test article, the Mach-2MHz, which generated up to 0.5 gram-force, (~5.0 milli-Newton).  As to when these new test articles will see first light, my guess is sometime this summer, barring unforeseen time sinks at work for me, or health issues with Jim.  (Jim W. is currently in remission from his lung cancer at the moment.  Let's us hope that it stays that way...!)


Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #774 on: 05/13/2010 02:06 AM »
Lubos Motls (motls.blogspot.com), a very competent physicist...

...and vehement skeptic of anything non-conventional. You need people like him in the discussion, but if you always listen to him, you'll never advance the state of science. Not surprised at all he doesn't like the M-E effect, as it messes up his pretty notions of locality.

Can't wait for Stardrive and Woodward to get that air-table demo working, just to watch people like Motls squirm.

of course I wasn't suggesting that Motls is right about that, merely correcting mlorrey in his assertion that the Mach Effect as a souce of inertia is accepted or that the critics don't know physics.

As a reply to that, I've known quite a few physicists who don't know physics.

At least no physics that isn't in their specialty or specifically pertaining to their own theories and theses....

Moderating at Wattsupwiththat.com, I've frequently had to moderate statements from actual physicists in academia who are literally so obsessed with their own crazy theories that they deny SR and GR, and even standard models of stellar evolution. One guy who is a tenured professor had to be banned because he would always hijack every comment thread to promote his iron sun and electric universe horsehockey. And don't get me started on the AGW cultists who also happen to be tenured and degreed physicists.

There are tenured physicists who still believe in the steady state universe model. Others promote Heim theory, even though its calculations for various constants and particle masses have shown to be extremely faulty, and don't forget the physicists who are pimping that Blacklight Power scam.

As for Motl, he's a skeptic, thats fine, thats his schtick.

Woodward's latest paper pretty much demonstrates that general relativity itself depends on Mach's Principle to function. If Motl took the time to actually read it, he may change his mind.


Offline cuddihy

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #775 on: 05/13/2010 12:33 PM »

Woodward's latest paper pretty much demonstrates that general relativity itself depends on Mach's Principle to function. If Motl took the time to actually read it, he may change his mind.


Which paper is that?

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #776 on: 05/13/2010 10:08 PM »

Woodward's latest paper pretty much demonstrates that general relativity itself depends on Mach's Principle to function. If Motl took the time to actually read it, he may change his mind.


Which paper is that?

An M-E paper that Jim W is still refining.  Hopfully he will have it ready for publication in a few weeks.
Star-Drive

Offline sanman

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Why Do We Have Inertia?
« Reply #777 on: 05/14/2010 03:15 PM »
Hi,

I'd like to know if Mach's Principle, which this conjectured Mach-Lorentz Thruster is based upon, is itself legitimate. I would also like to ask if Mach's Principle supports the idea of Quantum Foam.

To me, Mach's Principle is consistent with the idea that matter and space are related, and it also implies non-locality.

Is Mach's Principle legitimate, and if so, how come nobody talks about it?
From what I've read, Einstein's work is based upon it, and it seems to me that Mach's Principle examines the bedrock issue of why inertia even happens in the first place.

I like this questioning of why we have inertia, and I question why there aren't more people asking this question. I hate it when "experts" say "It's there because it's there - now shut up and stop asking inconvenient questions"  That really bothers me deeply.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #778 on: 05/14/2010 04:13 PM »
...no alternative of what exactly causes inertia is ever proffered. The question is never asked....

I don't think that inertia is understood just yet.

Per:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia#Source_of_Inertia
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #779 on: 05/14/2010 04:30 PM »
...no alternative of what exactly causes inertia is ever proffered. The question is never asked....

I don't think that inertia is understood just yet.

Per:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia#Source_of_Inertia

John:

Now that depends on who you ask.  Dennis Sciama, (Graduate student of Paul Dirac and Graduate Advisor to Steve Hawking amoung other stellar Physics folks from the 1960s, 70s and 80s), provided a very good explanation for the origins of inertia based on Mach's Priniciple and GRT.  (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_William_Sciama and Sciama's graduate paper on same.)  This is where Woodward started his quest for a better rocket via the Mach-Effect as revealed in its extendions to Newton's thrid law. 

And yes, the QM types have tried to make their Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations be the origins of inertia, (See Hal Puthoff & crew's work on same), but their arguments to date IMO don't stand up to Sciama's and the rest of the GRT folk's origins of-inertia theory.  Your opinion may differ, so we really need to be doing experiments instead of brushing this inertia issue under the rug.
Star-Drive

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