Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 664883 times)

Online sanman

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #840 on: 05/26/2010 01:54 PM »
So, replace violating the principle of locality with violating the conservation of momentum.

Well, classical conservation of momentum then holds within particular constraints or limits - specifically, it holds above the small scale. At the Planck scale, it gets drowned out by Vacuum Fluctuation effects.
For instance, isn't quantum tunneling a violation of conservation of momentum? One moment an electron is in one place, and the next moment it's been kicked somewhere else - it may have even traveled through other matter. Where did it suddenly get that momentum from, to travel elsewhere? Who kicked it? Well, the Vacuum obviously kicked it.
So there is exchange of momentum with the Vacuum - something which clearly then changes the definition or framework of Conservation of Momentum. Considering exchanges of momentum with the vacuum is not the same as classical conservation of momentum, but we need to account for this to explain quantum-scale phenomena. Mach's Principle certainly does not account for such things.

The Vacuum Fluctuations aren't just a consequence of Heisenberg's Uncertainty - it's Heisenberg's Uncertainty which is a consequence of spacetime being populated by all these dynamic fluctuations (ie. "foam")

To me, Occam's Razor demands that Heisenberg's Uncertainty and Wave-like behavior be linked to a common cause or origin - ie. quantum foam.

But how to interact with quantum foam to achieve macro-scale displacement/movement? Nobody wants their spacecraft to travel distances on the order of a Planck length. They want a spacecraft that will travel many thousands or millions of miles at least.

If only the random disordered fluctuations of the vacuum could be turned orderly, to "kick" our spacecraft in unison. That would amount to altering the DeBroglie wavelength of our spaceship.




Online sanman

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #841 on: 05/26/2010 02:37 PM »
Just continuing with some thoughts...

So ordinary light is incoherent, just like our vacuum fluctuations. The whole reason a laser works, is that it's able to produce photons that are in phase. If only there was some way to apply lasing principles to the incoherence of vacuum fluctuations, to make them coherent and in phase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_inversion#Stimulated_emission

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The critical detail of stimulated emission is that the induced photon has the same frequency and phase as the incident photon. In other words, the two photons are coherent. It is this property that allows optical amplification, and the production of a laser  system.


Could quantum entanglement be an answer? After all, entangled objects are in phase with respect to their interaction with the Vacuum. They're all fluctuating in unison, coherently.

Suppose then that you had a large enough mass of entangled particles.
Suppose you could make a Bose-Einstein Condensate out of a large number of very heavy atoms. You could then have a significant mass interacting coherently with the vacuum.

Could a sufficiently massive BEC be made to oscillate against the Vacuum, to behave like some kind of "mass resonator" or "momentum resonator"? (analog to the optical resonator)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_resonator

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An optical cavity or optical resonator is an arrangement of mirrors  that forms a standing wave cavity resonator for light waves. Optical cavities are a major component of lasers, surrounding the gain medium and providing feedback  of the laser light.


Offline 93143

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #842 on: 05/26/2010 05:16 PM »
For instance, isn't quantum tunneling a violation of conservation of momentum? One moment an electron is in one place, and the next moment it's been kicked somewhere else

As long as the electron has the same momentum before and after the jump, conservation of momentum isn't violated.  Remember, these aren't pointlike objects - they're more like probability distributions...  and conservation doesn't need to hold on timescales smaller than the Planck time (since there isn't really such a thing), so long as the before and after states do respect it...

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Nobody wants their spacecraft to travel distances on the order of a Planck length. They want a spacecraft that will travel many thousands or millions of miles at least.

If only the random disordered fluctuations of the vacuum could be turned orderly, to "kick" our spacecraft in unison. That would amount to altering the DeBroglie wavelength of our spaceship.

You just described an Infinite Improbability Drive...

Online sanman

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #843 on: 05/26/2010 06:03 PM »
So-called "atom lasers" are a relatively new technology capable of measuring Planck-scale phenomena:

http://www-conf.slac.stanford.edu/orion/PAPERS/D02.PDF



Matter affects the Vacuum, and the Vacuum affects matter right back.
On the macro-scale, large masses like stars and planets are able to warp spacetime (the Vacuum), and that warped space results in a gravitational pull which can compress that matter even to the point of nuclear fusion.

On the quantum scale, the Vacuum interacts with matter through Vacuum Fluctuations, giving matter its deBroglie wavelength.
A tiny electron can even "tunnel" from one location to another, after having been kicked by the Vacuum Fluctuations. Indeed, tiny particles like electrons are always seen to be "
But that which kicks something is also kicked back - if you impart momentum to a soccer ball by kicking it, then you are also being kicked back by the soccer ball, with momentum being imparted to your swinging foot.

So an electron or any other matter which has been kicked has also kicked the Vacuum back - it has also produced some reciprocal Fluctuation in the Vacuum.

Standard collision physics says that the more equal the masses that collide, the more equally the momentum between them is dsitributed.
The greater the asymmetry in mass between the colliding objects, the more the smaller mass will simply bounce back off the larger mass like a light beam being reflected.

So if we have a large coherent mass (BEC) which is kicking the Vacuum, then it is going to produce coherent waves/fluctuations in the Vacuum (laser-like?).

How can we exploit such coherent Vacuum fluctuations? How can we first detect/measure them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_laser



Online sanman

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #844 on: 05/26/2010 06:14 PM »
As long as the electron has the same momentum before and after the jump, conservation of momentum isn't violated.  Remember, these aren't pointlike objects - they're more like probability distributions...  and conservation doesn't need to hold on timescales smaller than the Planck time (since there isn't really such a thing), so long as the before and after states do respect it...

An electron, like any other lepton, is a point charge. When you say it's a "probability distribution", that's just another way of describing the fact that the electron is being jiggled around by the Vacuum (aka. Brownian Motion). By that standard, even a speck of dust floating in water is a "probability distribution". The smaller the mass is relative to the kicks it's getting from its surroundings, the more it looks like a probability distribution. (ie. DeBroglie wavelength)

Why is there no such thing as Planck Time or Planck Length?
If an electron can get from here to the Moon without violating Conservation of Momentum, then why can't I get from here to the Moon without violating Conservation of Momentum? You've just said that exchanging momentum with the Vacuum doesn't count as a violation of Conservation of Momentum. I just have to convince enough Vacuum constituents to trade momentum with me on my terms.

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You just described an Infinite Improbability Drive...

But that presumes we cannot influence the Vacuum.
Turning incoherent light into coherent laser light is not infinitely improbable if we devise the right mechanism for it. Likewise, then turning the random incoherent fluctuations of the Vacuum into coherent ones acting in phase doesn't have to be infinitely improbable, if we can find the right mechanism.

Coherent matter (eg. BEC) means coherent interaction with the Vacuum. Which means coherent exchange of momentum with the Vacuum. Which means coherent fluctuations in the Vacuum.

The atom laser should be able to help us do with momentum/kinetic-energy what the photonic laser helps us do with photonic energy.
« Last Edit: 05/26/2010 06:24 PM by sanman »

Offline 93143

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #845 on: 05/26/2010 07:33 PM »
You've just said that exchanging momentum with the Vacuum doesn't count as a violation of Conservation of Momentum. I just have to convince enough Vacuum constituents to trade momentum with me on my terms.

I'm not sure you understand what momentum is.  Hint:  it has nothing to do with position...

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turning the random incoherent fluctuations of the Vacuum into coherent ones acting in phase doesn't have to be infinitely improbable, if we can find the right mechanism.

It's not "infinitely improbable" anyway - that was just Douglas Adams being hyperbolic for the sake of the story...

Online sanman

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #846 on: 05/26/2010 08:44 PM »
You've just said that exchanging momentum with the Vacuum doesn't count as a violation of Conservation of Momentum. I just have to convince enough Vacuum constituents to trade momentum with me on my terms.

I'm not sure you understand what momentum is.  Hint:  it has nothing to do with position...


p = mv

never said momentum was based on position, I said that brownian motion (kicks from the vacuum) are still changes to momentum, albeit brief ones.

A standing wave still has momentum, and that's what debroglie wave behavior is.


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turning the random incoherent fluctuations of the Vacuum into coherent ones acting in phase doesn't have to be infinitely improbable, if we can find the right mechanism.

It's not "infinitely improbable" anyway - that was just Douglas Adams being hyperbolic for the sake of the story...

Yeah, I've read the books, listened to the radio show, and seen the TV series and movie, but just as the principles of a laser can manipulate random distributions of photonic states into orderly ones, likewise  so could the same principles be applied to the disorderly changes in momentum states from the vacuum.

Photons are absorbed and re-emitted via excitation and de-excitation, but momentum is absorbed and re-emitted by collisions.

Photonic lasers are rated according to their power (watts), but what would atom lasers be rated by? Their mass? In which case, what could a higher-mass atom laser do better than a lower-mass atom laser? Presumably, the higher the mass, the smaller the DeBroglie wavelength, and thus the greater the ability to measure and map out the Planck scale (aka. "quantum gravity")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity

Is quantum gravity the key to "field propulsion"?
« Last Edit: 05/26/2010 08:45 PM by sanman »

Offline jimgagnon

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #847 on: 06/15/2010 03:14 AM »
Interesting article on how German researchers have shown how it is possible to create situations in the quantum world in which the effects of inertial and gravitational mass must be different. In fact, they show that these differences can be arbitrarily large.
  http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25331/

Offline 93143

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #848 on: 06/15/2010 04:49 AM »
never said momentum was based on position, I said that brownian motion (kicks from the vacuum) are still changes to momentum, albeit brief ones.

Brownian motion has nothing to do with quantum vacuum fluctuations.  It's just the effect of random molecular collisions.  The scale is vastly larger; you can see Brownian motion under a microscope.  And collimating it for thrust is a well-known field of technology...

Quantum tunneling does not result in an observable change in the momentum of the system.  If you want to "exchange momentum with the vacuum" in such a way as to be useful in pushing a spacecraft, you'll have to do it some way that ultimately transfers momentum to something real.

Elementary particles are not pointlike in the sense I think you mean.  I strongly suspect that your understanding of quantum mechanics is not nearly as good as you think it is.

Sadly, mine is none of the best either...  Is an actual quantum mechanic reading this?  My expertise is all Newtonian; some backup would be appreciated...

Interesting article on how German researchers have shown how it is possible to create situations in the quantum world in which the effects of inertial and gravitational mass must be different. In fact, they show that these differences can be arbitrarily large.
  http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25331/

Well, that's certainly encouraging...

Offline Garrett

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #849 on: 06/15/2010 04:10 PM »
Sadly, mine is none of the best either...  Is an actual quantum mechanic reading this?  My expertise is all Newtonian; some backup would be appreciated...
Am not a "quantum mechanic" but I like the term  :D
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Offline gospacex

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #850 on: 06/15/2010 04:24 PM »
As long as the electron has the same momentum before and after the jump, conservation of momentum isn't violated.  Remember, these aren't pointlike objects - they're more like probability distributions...  and conservation doesn't need to hold on timescales smaller than the Planck time (since there isn't really such a thing), so long as the before and after states do respect it...

An electron, like any other lepton, is a point charge. When you say it's a "probability distribution", that's just another way of describing the fact that the electron is being jiggled around by the Vacuum (aka. Brownian Motion). By that standard, even a speck of dust floating in water is a "probability distribution". The smaller the mass is relative to the kicks it's getting from its surroundings, the more it looks like a probability distribution. (ie. DeBroglie wavelength)

No. It is not a point charge. By now we know it for sure.

Also, electron can't be envisioned as a cloud or a wave of electric charge too - the experimental data do not support this theory.

It is really a complex-valued wavefunction whose modulus integrated over some volume is the *probability* of the particle being in that volume.

The new discoveries in theoretical physics require good knowledge of the current mathematical apparatus of quantup physics and related areas (way better than I have, and I spent 5 yeads studying higher math), and the ability to produce unconventional new hypothesises.

Just the ability to produce unconventional new hypothesises without good understanding of current theories will not do any good.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #851 on: 06/15/2010 08:25 PM »
An electric is a point-mass in some aspects, but it still has a deBroglie wavelength (like everything else, basically).

...
Just the ability to produce unconventional new hypothesises without good understanding of current theories will not do any good.
If only EVERY person on the Internet understood that single sentence...
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Offline JasonAW3

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Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #853 on: 06/16/2010 04:58 AM »
Sadly, mine is none of the best either...  Is an actual quantum mechanic reading this?  My expertise is all Newtonian; some backup would be appreciated...
Am not a "quantum mechanic" but I like the term  :D
Does a quantum mechanic have to wear overalls, and get dirty with quarks?

A quantum mechanic is strange, charming, and wears colored overalls. His favorite sport is spinning.
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Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #854 on: 06/16/2010 05:00 AM »
An electric is a point-mass in some aspects, but it still has a deBroglie wavelength (like everything else, basically).

...
Just the ability to produce unconventional new hypothesises without good understanding of current theories will not do any good.
If only EVERY person on the Internet understood that single sentence...

But then we wouldn't need acronyms like SWAG...
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #855 on: 06/16/2010 01:29 PM »
Or memnonics like:

Pretty Red Horses Eat Candy
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline cgrunska

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #856 on: 07/29/2010 06:54 PM »
any new news for this?
anything on the polywell fusion reactor?

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #857 on: 07/29/2010 08:01 PM »
any new news for this?
anything on the polywell fusion reactor?

Not really, Woodward is buying/building a new power supply last I heard.

Nebel's polywell team isn't due to announce anything until some time between November of this year and May of next year. However, the chief of the Office of Naval Research recently gave a presentation to high level military brass about future naval power, propulsion, and weaponry, and among other things, talked briefly about Polywell remaining on track and giving positive results so far and will be able to meet the Navy's needs for power for its future railgun and other energy weaponry needs. So this is encouraging even if there's no science released as of yet.
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Offline jimgagnon

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #858 on: 07/31/2010 05:20 PM »
Those interested in the Mach effect may find this latest paper interesting. It shows that a model assuming inertia is due to Unruh radiation can explain the Pioneer effect and why disc galaxies have a minimum mass. The paper claims that as accelerations decrease, the inertial mass of an object deviate significantly from its gravitational mass, causing accelerations to quantise.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.3303

Readable layman take on the paper:
  http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=13651
« Last Edit: 07/31/2010 05:49 PM by jimgagnon »

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #859 on: 08/03/2010 04:16 AM »
Those interested in the Mach effect may find this latest paper interesting. It shows that a model assuming inertia is due to Unruh radiation can explain the Pioneer effect and why disc galaxies have a minimum mass. The paper claims that as accelerations decrease, the inertial mass of an object deviate significantly from its gravitational mass, causing accelerations to quantise.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.3303

Readable layman take on the paper:
  http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=13651

And lets not forget:

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25331/

http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.1988

"Inertial and gravitational mass in quantum mechanics

Authors: E. Kajari, N.L. Harshman, E.M. Rasel, S. Stenholm, G. Süßmann, W.P. Schleich

(Submitted on 10 Jun 2010 (v1), last revised 15 Jun 2010 (this version, v2))
Abstract: We show that in complete agreement with classical mechanics, the dynamics of any quantum mechanical wave packet in a linear gravitational potential involves the gravitational and the inertial mass only as their ratio. In contrast, the spatial modulation of the corresponding energy wave function is determined by the third root of the product of the two masses. Moreover, the discrete energy spectrum of a particle constrained in its motion by a linear gravitational potential and an infinitely steep wall depends on the inertial as well as the gravitational mass with different fractional powers. This feature might open a new avenue in quantum tests of the universality of free fall."


Hmmm, now the comment that "the spatial modulation of the corresponding energy wave function is determined by the third root of the product of the two masses" sounds very familar.  Oh yes, I know, it's in one of Dr. Woodward's Mach-Effect derivation expansions that indicate that the M-E mass fluctuations are proportional to the cube of the cap dielectric energy wave's voltage.  Looks like the QM guys are finally starting to catch on...
Star-Drive

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