Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 690049 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1460 on: 07/13/2011 01:41 AM »
Well, about the demonstration article of "proof".  Right now, the force is very itty bitty.  Floating in a large battery operated device which could hover for an hour seems too much to ask.  What about a dictionary sized article, with a wire attached to it, and a joystick of some sort?  The device sits on the table until it is turned on, and the joystick moves it around the table within the limits of the wire, for maybe five minutes or so.

The "proof" article doesn't have to be huge, but it should move, I'd think, in a fashion detectable by the naked eye.

Quote
Based on a statistical analysis of the signal/noise ratio of the pixels, you find that both 99% assessments are indeed accurate.


Presumably, the scientists witnessing the "proof" article, would have the ability to rule out spurious "explanations".  That is, no large electromagnets under the table, say.  The proof would be, well, proved, when a third party could replicate the demonstration.

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If it works as advertized we get weekend roadtrip times for Moon destinations...

Yes, but it's far too soon to get too excited about stuff like that.  Heck, they can't even reconstruct Saturn V.  So the weekend trip soundbite tends to disillusion many people, I'd say.

There seems to be a difference between inertial mass and gravitational mass.  In the famous elevator experiment, when you let go of the steel sphere, it accelerates to the floor, but you can't tell if the sphere is stationary and the elevator moving, or vice versa.  If you drop two spheres, theoretically, they would converge to the center of gravity of an attracting body as they accelerate to the floor.  If, however, the elevator were accelerating and the spheres stationary, the two spheres would accelerate to the floor in parallel.  Thus, you could tell the difference between inertia and gravity.  Has this experiment ever been done?  Sciama references it in one of his books.

It seems like inertia has something to do with the effect.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1461 on: 07/13/2011 04:09 AM »
Paul,

Did Dr. Woodward ever respond to you about sfuerst's comments?

Only with hints of what his response will be when Jim is ready.  In the meantime I'm getting myself out of the firing range.
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Offline Cinder

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1462 on: 07/13/2011 05:34 AM »
Quote
If it works as advertized we get weekend roadtrip times for Moon destinations...

Yes, but it's far too soon to get too excited about stuff like that.  Heck, they can't even reconstruct Saturn V.  So the weekend trip soundbite tends to disillusion many people, I'd say.
As I see it, the Moon and planets and stars are always out there. So close yet so far.  That's exciting to me.  Whether it's ME or something else, we have to get there.  I find it exciting to be making progress towards that, one way or another.  Proving or ruling out ME is progress either way:  it either works and gives us that stairway to vaster yet prospects that we'll then gawk at and struggle to come to grips with the same way we are now with climbing out the gravity well, or it doesn't work and it's one less wild goose chase for our means - the men and women working to get us from here to there - to refocus from.
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From desire, ariseth the thought of some means we have seen produce the like of that which we aim at; and from the thought of that, the thought of means to that mean; and so continually, till we come to some beginning within our own power.
« Last Edit: 07/13/2011 05:34 AM by Cinder »
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Offline sfuerst

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1463 on: 07/13/2011 06:26 AM »
Quote
As previously said I'm a newb to GRT/SRT, but I always thought that equations of motion don't "describe" inertia; they rather require a priori, a particular understanding of inertia,that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

In Newtonian physics, that is correct.  In that context, it is quite mysterious why inertial mass and gravitational mass have any connection since gravity is just one force amongst many.

GR is different.  It models the behaviour of all mass/energy in the universe in a self-consistent manner.  It handles the effects of every other force by modelling their stress-energy content.  By using calculus of variations on the Einstein equation, the effects of inertia neatly pop out due to conservation of stress-energy.


Steve:

"By using calculus of variations on the Einstein equation, the effects of inertia neatly pop out due to conservation of stress-energy."

The effects of inertia may be demonstrated by this approach, but it still doesn't tell us WHY this is so, nor HOW inertia is expressed in the local frame.  However, I'm now going to ask you to take this disscussion up directly with Dr. Woodward, for as an Electrical Engineer, I'm fast getting out of my area of expertise here.

Best,

Paul M.

Actually GR is rather elegant in how it derives inertia.

You use the Einstein equation  G_ab=8\piT_ab, and take the covariant derivative of both sides.  On the RHS you derive the equations of motion for your material based on the fact that this derivative is zero.  So the effects of inertia are directly linked to the fact that the derivative is zero, and stress-energy is a conserved quantity.

Why is the derivative zero?  Looking at the LHS, we can perform the derivative there as well.  Due to a subtle differential geometry theorem known as the Bianchi Identities, the zero result appears.  In turn, these identities are related to the topological fact that the boundary of a boundary is zero.

So GR links inertia to a neat result in topology.

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1464 on: 07/13/2011 01:00 PM »
Quote
As previously said I'm a newb to GRT/SRT, but I always thought that equations of motion don't "describe" inertia; they rather require a priori, a particular understanding of inertia,that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

In Newtonian physics, that is correct.  In that context, it is quite mysterious why inertial mass and gravitational mass have any connection since gravity is just one force amongst many.

GR is different.  It models the behaviour of all mass/energy in the universe in a self-consistent manner.  It handles the effects of every other force by modelling their stress-energy content.  By using calculus of variations on the Einstein equation, the effects of inertia neatly pop out due to conservation of stress-energy.


Steve:

"By using calculus of variations on the Einstein equation, the effects of inertia neatly pop out due to conservation of stress-energy."

The effects of inertia may be demonstrated by this approach, but it still doesn't tell us WHY this is so, nor HOW inertia is expressed in the local frame.  However, I'm now going to ask you to take this disscussion up directly with Dr. Woodward, for as an Electrical Engineer, I'm fast getting out of my area of expertise here.

Best,

Paul M.

Actually GR is rather elegant in how it derives inertia.

You use the Einstein equation  G_ab=8\piT_ab, and take the covariant derivative of both sides.  On the RHS you derive the equations of motion for your material based on the fact that this derivative is zero.  So the effects of inertia are directly linked to the fact that the derivative is zero, and stress-energy is a conserved quantity.

Why is the derivative zero?  Looking at the LHS, we can perform the derivative there as well.  Due to a subtle differential geometry theorem known as the Bianchi Identities, the zero result appears.  In turn, these identities are related to the topological fact that the boundary of a boundary is zero.

So GR links inertia to a neat result in topology.

Steve:

What is your definition of "Stress-Energy" in the GRT context?  In other words what is it physically??

Best,

Paul M.
Star-Drive

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1465 on: 07/13/2011 01:09 PM »
Quote from: Cinder
Proving or ruling out ME is progress either way...

Totally agree.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline sfuerst

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1466 on: 07/13/2011 04:05 PM »

What is your definition of "Stress-Energy" in the GRT context?  In other words what is it physically??

The Stress-Energy Tensor contains terms that describe all the mass/energy and momentum flux in a small differential volume around a given point.  It contains things like the density, pressure, kinetic energy, energy-momentum of any fields, any shear forces etc.

There is an article on it at wikipedia that is relatively readable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress-energy_tensor


Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1467 on: 07/22/2011 10:43 PM »
According to GRT, wormholes are supposed to allow for time travel as well as distance travel. That there have been no verified accounts of anyone visiting us from the future suggests that backwards time travel is possible. If wormholes cannot be used for time travel, then they probably cannot be used for distance travel, meaning that they are impossible. Perhaps wormholes are possible, but can only be used for distance travel and not time travel.

Perhaps Woodward-Mach effect can be used to make the "space drive" (sub-light, of course) but cannot be used to make wormholes. In this case, it would still open up the solar system for settlement and development, O'neill-style, and that would be good enough in itself.

Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1468 on: 07/22/2011 10:50 PM »

its an important physics forum, but I am in no mood to push the issue forward, because I dont know enough about physics or eve about the peer review process, to argue with that or other moderators. If any of you think you can prove them ME should be allowed to have a thread on that forum, feel free to do so.

I PMed the moderator with the peer-reviewed papers and he has re-opened the thread.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=259842


Offline MP99

Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1469 on: 07/23/2011 03:01 PM »
Kurt,

believe there is a theory that a time machine may not travel back before the time it was created.

Lack of observation of time travelers only shows that no time machine currently exists!

cheers, Martin

Offline jimgagnon

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1470 on: 07/26/2011 11:44 PM »
When a spinning laser gyroscope is placed near a super-cooled rotating ring, the gyroscope accelerates a bit in the same direction as the ring, and scientists aren’t sure why.

  http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-gyroscope-unexplained-due-inertia.html

“Inertial mass has not been well understood and has been assumed to be the same as gravitational mass (the Equivalence Principle, EP),” McCulloch explained. “If MiHsC is correct, then the EP is only an approximation (the small deviation from the EP due to MiHsC could not have been detected in torsion balance experiments, as I explain in the Discussion of my paper). As a result there may be implications for General Relativity since this assumes the EP is true (and therefore also implications for low-acceleration phenomena like the orbits of stars at the edge of galaxies).

“Once the cause of something is known, then it may be controllable,” he said. “The control of inertia could be useful. For example: Can we generate Unruh radiation to change the inertial mass of an object and thereby move it? I have discussed this possibility in previous papers (e.g., EPL, 90, 29001).”

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1471 on: 07/27/2011 03:09 PM »
When a spinning laser gyroscope is placed near a super-cooled rotating ring, the gyroscope accelerates a bit in the same direction as the ring, and scientists aren’t sure why.

  http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-07-gyroscope-unexplained-due-inertia.html

“Inertial mass has not been well understood and has been assumed to be the same as gravitational mass (the Equivalence Principle, EP),” McCulloch explained. “If MiHsC is correct, then the EP is only an approximation (the small deviation from the EP due to MiHsC could not have been detected in torsion balance experiments, as I explain in the Discussion of my paper). As a result there may be implications for General Relativity since this assumes the EP is true (and therefore also implications for low-acceleration phenomena like the orbits of stars at the edge of galaxies).

“Once the cause of something is known, then it may be controllable,” he said. “The control of inertia could be useful. For example: Can we generate Unruh radiation to change the inertial mass of an object and thereby move it? I have discussed this possibility in previous papers (e.g., EPL, 90, 29001).”

Folks:

Find attached a couple of McCoulloch's related modified inertia papers that are on the web.  From a quick reading, it appears that McCoulloch combines some of Wooward's and White's ideas on inerita that inertia is the consequence of long wave gravitational radiation bouncing back and forth in the Caimir cavity created by the casually connected universe.  It appears that McCoulloch's work does not directly conflict with either Woodward's or White's work to date, but this is just after my first reading of these papers and your opinion on this topic may differ.

Best.

Paul M.
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Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1472 on: 08/09/2011 08:13 PM »
According to GRT, wormholes are supposed to allow for time travel as well as distance travel. That there have been no verified accounts of anyone visiting us from the future suggests that backwards time travel is possible. If wormholes cannot be used for time travel, then they probably cannot be used for distance travel, meaning that they are impossible. Perhaps wormholes are possible, but can only be used for distance travel and not time travel.

Perhaps Woodward-Mach effect can be used to make the "space drive" (sub-light, of course) but cannot be used to make wormholes. In this case, it would still open up the solar system for settlement and development, O'neill-style, and that would be good enough in itself.

Speaking of wormholes, I found this paper that does not spell good news for them:

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0504003

Basically, this paper says wormholes cannot be both stable and predictable. Type A devices (semiclassical) are unstable and type B devices (large space-time fluctuations induced by quantum matter) are unpredictable. The instability arises from a violation of the null energy condition, as shown here .

Though it has to be said I found a paper that provides counter-examples where systems violating the null energy condition can be stable. Quote from the paper:

"A necessary feature of all the counter-examples is the anisotropy of the background and, perhaps more importantly, the presence of superluminal modes. In fact we proved that for systems that are either isotropic or do not feature superluminality, a violation of the null energy condition always implies an unescapable instability"

Whether the M-E exotic matter term can produce wormholes or not will depends on the nature of the exotic matter, it seems.

Warp drives for interstellar travel is becoming less likely, after it was discovered that as soon as one enters superluminal velocity, the bubble becomes unstable and an influx of hawking radiation accumulates in the center of the bubble, frying anything inside to a crisp. Subluminal warp drives are still possible (albeit you still need exotic matter)...but superluminal warp drives appear to be impossible.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0904/0904.0141v2.pdf

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1473 on: 08/10/2011 04:09 PM »
I dont give a damn about wormholes. If we can reach near light speed easily and cheap, we can reach the edge of the universe in only 60 years (ship time)

Offline Cinder

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1474 on: 08/10/2011 05:05 PM »
Dunno about giving a damn, but for sure "conventional" Mach thrusters would already revolutionize life on earth and in space.  Saturn in two weeks' time is just ... crazy :)

Revolutionary is almost an understatement.
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Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1475 on: 08/10/2011 06:29 PM »
I dont give a damn about wormholes. If we can reach near light speed easily and cheap, we can reach the edge of the universe in only 60 years (ship time)

For interstellar flight to be economical and safe, we need FTL. Period. The kind of trip you're proposing is a one-way suicide mission (unless of course you know that there's a habitable Earth-like planet at your destination and you plan on colonizing it).

If it's not possible, then you can kiss those dreams good bye. If I am not mistaken, Paul shared similar sentiments on the polywell forum.

Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1476 on: 08/10/2011 06:41 PM »
To do interstellar travel cost effectively and within any kind of payback period requires some sort of FTL. If FTL is not possible, any interstellar travel is strictly one-way and it has to be self-financed. Although the Woodward-Mach approach is plausible, its still likely that FTL is impossible. Its quite likely that Woodward-Mach will give us the space drive but not FTL. It is also likely that if FTL is possible, that it will be wormholes but that FTL space craft are not possible. Eric Davis believes this to be the case.

Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1477 on: 08/10/2011 07:40 PM »
It is also likely that if FTL is possible, that it will be wormholes but that FTL space craft are not possible. Eric Davis believes this to be the case.

Yes. That last paper I posted shows a superluminal warp drive is impossible for the time being. I have yet to see that problem addressed by other researchers.

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1478 on: 08/11/2011 08:34 PM »
lets clarify. I do give a damn about FTL. But I dont think its necessary yet. I will be content with sub luminal Mach in my lifetime. We still have to colonize the whole solar system, including dozens of moons and hundreds of asteroids, before we need to worry about other star systems. WHILE we colonize the solar system, we can already dispel hundreds of Mach propelled probes to several different stars and wait for their data

In fact, with Mach we would be able to build huge space telescopes that would probably be able to look at planets in other star systems with the same clarity we can see Mars (from Earth) nowadays.

One step at a time is enough for me.
« Last Edit: 08/11/2011 08:35 PM by aceshigh »

Offline mrflora

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1479 on: 08/11/2011 09:40 PM »
Hello everyone, this is my first post.  I have been lurking for quite a while.  I am intrigued by Woodward and his experiments but also skeptical (as I am sure most people here are).  Lately I have been trying to think of ways to amplify the effect, if it exists, to a level where there could be no doubt of its existence.  Looking at Woodward's equations, the thrust appears to depend on dP/dt, the power rate of change into the device.  Since multi-megawatt lasers exist with very short pulse duration, would it be plausible to incorporate a short-pulse laser into a Mach thruster?  There would be a photon momentum effect of course that would have to be taken into account.

Regards,
M.R.F.

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