Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 688655 times)

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1200 on: 03/15/2011 05:42 PM »
I hope somebody will film it and put on Youtube.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1201 on: 03/16/2011 11:59 AM »
The discussions on the previous pages about population declines are hard to understand.  Seems like population is going up across the board, with pockets of decline here and there, largely for what I would call logistic reasons, eonomies, and stuff like that.

While perhaps the US white population is not growing as fast as the Hispanic US population, it is still growing.  Why are the highways so crowded?  Immigration? Wealth?  Or more people driving cars?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Elmar_M

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1202 on: 03/16/2011 01:20 PM »
The discussions on the previous pages about population declines are hard to understand.  Seems like population is going up across the board, with pockets of decline here and there, largely for what I would call logistic reasons, eonomies, and stuff like that.

While perhaps the US white population is not growing as fast as the Hispanic US population, it is still growing.  Why are the highways so crowded?  Immigration? Wealth?  Or more people driving cars?

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate

Mathematically, you need two children per woman in order to sustain the population over a longer period of time. However, due to some people dieing before reaching fertile age, you need more in the range of 2.1 to 2.2.
Almost all western countries have seen a decline in birthrates. Caucasians are struck most hard, with birth rates as low as 1.5  per women on average in the European Union. Some European countries have birth rates as low as 1.3. This means that their population is almost cut in half with every generation.
The US is the western country that is still closest to keeping its population at level with a fertility rate of 2.0. But even the US will see a small slow decline.
The population growth that you still observe in some of these countries, despite the decline in fertility rate is due to the following factors:
1. An increase in lifetime. People live longer, so the population decline takes longer to take effect. But it will become very dramatic once the baby boomer generation starts dieing. The effect of them retiring with fewer younger people to pay their pensions will already have an impact on economies and societies.
2. Immigration. Central Europe is particular has seen a large amount of immigration from southern, middle eastern and african countries with higher birth rates.
In any case, there is a signifficant shift in the origins of the population of these countries happening due to these factors.
The socio- economic impact of all this is hard to predict.

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1203 on: 03/16/2011 09:51 PM »
The discussions on the previous pages about population declines are hard to understand.  Seems like population is going up across the board, with pockets of decline here and there, largely for what I would call logistic reasons, eonomies, and stuff like that.

While perhaps the US white population is not growing as fast as the Hispanic US population, it is still growing.  Why are the highways so crowded?  Immigration? Wealth?  Or more people driving cars?

European population growth is negative, same for Japan and every other industrialized western nation other than the US. The only reason the US has positive pop growth is immigration.

Highways are more crowded because the population of cars is increasing, AND, the "ring city" phenomenon causes commute times to increase, which also causes more traffic.

The ring city phenomenon is a function of building and zoning codes that encourage sprawl and development centered around use of the automobile as primary means of transportation. People increasingly live further away from their location of employment, and many wealthy local city communities seek to minimize their welfare burden by blocking construction of affordable housing, and blocking permits for "mother in law apartments", which forces many employees to find housing in more rural communities and make long commutes.

People also demand larger homes which requires more land (this is partly because people of the year 2000 are significantly taller and heavier than their great grand parents of 1900 or their grandparents of the 1950's, but also due to us having a lot more stuff due to our consumer culture, in the year 1950, there were no self-storage businesses in the entire US.)
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Offline UncleMatt

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1204 on: 03/17/2011 12:31 PM »
Not really interested in discussing population in this thread. Lets stay on topic here...

Offline Elmar_M

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1205 on: 03/17/2011 12:34 PM »
Not really interested in discussing population in this thread. Lets stay on topic here...
Agreed, but I just wanted to adress a question that was asked...
So has anybody heard anything about the presentation by Woodward?

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1206 on: 03/17/2011 09:02 PM »
Not really interested in discussing population in this thread. Lets stay on topic here...
Agreed, but I just wanted to adress a question that was asked...
So has anybody heard anything about the presentation by Woodward?

No, I expect we wont get an update until he's done and back at his hotel or something, unless someone else has gone to SPESIF too. Jim isn't up on all the new fangled internet tech, he still uses a juno email account with a big BCC list...
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Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1207 on: 03/17/2011 09:02 PM »

Agreed, but I just wanted to adress a question that was asked...
So has anybody heard anything about the presentation by Woodward?

Haven't heard anything about Woodward's presentation yet, but some interesting tidbits about Droscher & Hauser's presentation were posted on physorg forums.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4385&st=2910

"I am currently at SPESIF. Its been pretty good, got to hear from NIAC.

Professor Hauser gave his presentation this morning.

So far, the three sources as we all know (or have heard about at some point) that have been used to corroborate evidence of Heim theory are 1) Tajmar's rotating superconductor experiment, 2) Gravity probe B, 3) Grahm's experiment (some guy from an Australian institution who was unable to replicate Tajmar's results)


He reconciled the problems concerning the use of Gravity Probe B as a way to corroborate EHT. He cited the inherent problems in the experiment and noted it as"ill-conceived", however, even when accounting for these design problems, there is still a portion unaccounted for--which is where he claims EHT comes in.

He presented in a table the key differences between Tajmar's experiment and Grahm's experiment (which was unable to replicate Tajmar's results) and why those differences were apparent.

He concluded his lecture by suggesting that an axial field, or 'Heim experiment' be conductedto further developing/understanding Heim theory (maybe someone on this forum has access to the slideshow, but it should be available on the proceedings CD)

Hopefully I didn't butcher this explanation too badly, but that's what I took away from this."


Anyone know if Paul attended the conference?

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1208 on: 03/17/2011 09:28 PM »
The results of Gravity Probe B are said by Woodward to also show proof of Mach's Principle. IMHO the data from that mission mean all things to all people.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1209 on: 03/18/2011 12:53 PM »
European population growth is negative, same for Japan and every other industrialized western nation other than the US. The only reason the US has positive pop growth is immigration.

I get that.  But isn't the world's population rising?  There are just pockets of low or no growth.  Not to get too off topic tho.

So why can't inertia be a property of matter?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Sith

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1210 on: 03/18/2011 01:20 PM »
I can't find those beautiful PDF presentations about the current limitations of space propulsion. There were some future perspectives.

Offline 93143

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1211 on: 03/18/2011 07:24 PM »
But isn't the world's population rising?  There are just pockets of low or no growth.

There's about a 70-year lag built into the system.  You have to look at the demographics.

IIRC, last I heard Earth's human population was projected to peak at ~9B around the middle of the century, and then start to decline.


Sadly, I don't have anything on topic to say at the moment...
« Last Edit: 03/18/2011 07:30 PM by 93143 »

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1212 on: 03/19/2011 12:44 AM »
The Mach effect thread appears to be dead. Long live the Mach effect thread.

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1213 on: 03/19/2011 01:27 AM »
European population growth is negative, same for Japan and every other industrialized western nation other than the US. The only reason the US has positive pop growth is immigration.

I get that.  But isn't the world's population rising?  There are just pockets of low or no growth.  Not to get too off topic tho.

World population is rising, but the rate of rise is dropping, primarily due to the chinese one-child law. Even though the birth rate has dropped in china as a result, infant mortality is way down, and life expectancy continues to increase, both factors that cause population to rise even when birth rates drop. Population in China won't start dropping until those of childbearing age prior to the one-child law start reaching life expectancy.

Many countries with negative growth in population are either former Eastern Bloc countries.

While China has a 0.48% growth rate, this doesnt tell the whole story, because with the one child policy, the male to female gender split in births is running about 60/40, so future fertility to be expected would actually be 80% of what one would expect of a one child policy. In terms of total fertility (i.e. children born per female over the mothers life), china dropped from 154th to 227th between 2006 and 2009 alone, because pre-one-child policy mothers are starting to die off.

Quote

So why can't inertia be a property of matter?

Well, you have to explain what it is about matter in and of itself, that lets it resist acceleration without having any linkage to anything else.

The mass of an object distorts time-space as Einstein said, as some sort of explanation for why you can't simply push something along without resistance, but the time-space fabric concept doesnt really explain this, because if conservation of energy holds true, then the energy expended to push a mass against the hole of its own gravity well in one direction should likewise be recollected by the rebound of the time-space well behind the object as it rebounds, so there should be zero resistance, unless time-space itself doesn't like to be distorted, but the simple act of an object moving, conservation of momentum says that time-space should have zero resistance to being distorted.

So you are left with the mass itself conserving its momentum, but resisting acceleration without a linkage to anything else. Its arguable that this resistance to acceleration is its own sort of spooky action, or rather spooky inaction, like, imagine a helium balloon floating in the air, that resists you pushing against it without it having anything to push against to create that resistance. Push hard enough, and it does give resistance equivalent to wind resistance, because its banging against the air molecules it comes into contact with mechanically.

In a vacuum of space, though, an object has no obvious "air" to provide wind resistance. There are candidates: cosmic background radiation as an air of electromagnetic energy, the gravitational attraction of all Far-Off-Active-Mass in all directions, and of course there's the proverbial zero point field.

The FOAM resistance is an interesting case, imagine you have a geodesic ball. Each junction of legs in the shell constitutes a piece of FOAM, each FOAM has a gravitational influence on the piece of matter we are considering at the center of the ball. The matter at the center is linked to every junction in the shell by a rubber band, so it exists in a state of constant tension between all points around it, the rubber band representing the gravitational attraction of all the FOAM toward the matter in the center. If you try to accelerate the matter in one direction, you get a resistance from the FOAM in the opposite direction. This is inertia.

The matter exerts its own gravitational attraction toward all other matter, so time-space is more properly described as a 4 dimensional ocean of rubber bands connecting all matter to all other matter within its light cone.

If you are able to vary the mass of the matter at the center of the ball, when you move it in x+ direction versus x- direction, you wind up with a net transfer of momentum from the FOAM to the matter in the center. Thats the Mach Effect, term 1. Do it energetically enough to enough matter, and you'll get a resonance effect that creates a warp in the ocean of rubber bands. Thats Mach Effect term 2.
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Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1214 on: 03/19/2011 02:24 AM »
In spirit of keeping this thread alive,

It's just occurred to me that Woodward has been experimenting with his Mach Effect conjecture since the early 90's...is there some kind of technical hurdle that's making this effect difficult to reliably generate? After 15+ years, you would think we would have more to show for it.
« Last Edit: 03/19/2011 02:25 AM by GeeGee »

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1215 on: 03/19/2011 02:42 AM »
In spirit of keeping this thread alive,

It's just occurred to me that Woodward has been experimenting with his Mach Effect conjecture since the early 90's...is there some kind of technical hurdle that's making this effect difficult to reliably generate? After 15+ years, you would think we would have more to show for it.

Well it's not like he's operating on any grant money here. Its all being financed by his retirement salary, and hampered by his current health problems with his kidneys, etc.

As for "more to show for it", the level of effect we are seeing in the data to date is big enough that if we were instead measuring global warming, even the coal companies would agree its happening, and trillions of dollars would be budgeted to the problem. There are agenda driven reasons why certain entities deny the Mach Effect is real. It is more lucrative to make space launch as expensive as possible, or so they think, ignoring the fact that the automotive business has made far more money than the horse and buggy industry ever made. But not a single horse buggy maker ever successfully became an automobile manufacturer.
« Last Edit: 03/19/2011 02:43 AM by mlorrey »
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Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1216 on: 03/19/2011 03:21 AM »
Anyone know if Paul attended the conference?

GeeGee:

Nope, I stayed home and I'm using the saved $1,500 by not going to the conference to continue work on my self contained battery powered ~1.9 MHz M-E/MLT test article test.  Hopefully I'll have some preliminary test results in hand by this summer.


Mike L.:

Paradigm breaking is tough work, even when we CAN float the M-E test article into the conference room...
Star-Drive

Offline kkattula

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1217 on: 03/19/2011 02:28 PM »

...ignoring the fact that the automotive business has made far more money than the horse and buggy industry ever made. But not a single horse buggy maker ever successfully became an automobile manufacturer.

Ah, almost all the early automobile manufacturers only produced the rolling chasis. Customers went to a coachbuilder for the body. The same people who previously built bodies for carriages.

So I expect the major aircraft manufacturers will happily swap turbofans (and possibly wings)  for M-E drives  and carry on building vehicles.

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1218 on: 03/21/2011 03:06 AM »

...ignoring the fact that the automotive business has made far more money than the horse and buggy industry ever made. But not a single horse buggy maker ever successfully became an automobile manufacturer.

Ah, almost all the early automobile manufacturers only produced the rolling chasis. Customers went to a coachbuilder for the body. The same people who previously built bodies for carriages.

So I expect the major aircraft manufacturers will happily swap turbofans (and possibly wings)  for M-E drives  and carry on building vehicles.

Maybe... but the loading is completely different. Unless a turbofan was needed to provide the electicity (actually not that unlikely), the shape would need to change, because the thrusters themselves would not distribute the loads the way the wing does. i.e. the thruster is a single "chunk" giving you lift... you pretty much would have to replace the wings with attachment to the thrusters in order to make the loading on the body work out.

Of course it never hurts to have a "backup" method of flying...which is probably why warpstar-1 looks like it is designed to return from orbit passively if needed..

Online JasonAW3

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1219 on: 03/21/2011 03:49 AM »
Pardon my butting in here, but going back to the energy issue, it sounds, in some ways, as though the energy being put into the system is also acting as a sort of 'eductor' power drawing additional power from vaccumn energy into the system to compensate for larger energy requirements as relativistic effects com into play.

     Being former Navy and having worked damage control, the concept of an eductor always fascinated me and I have always suspected that it may be possible to use a similar principle to draw energy from the quantum vaccumn.

     Of course I could be completely off base, if so, sorry I bugged you.  Just trying to clarify a point or two.

Jason
My God!  It's full of universes!

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