Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 666167 times)

Offline aero

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1160 on: 02/25/2011 02:33 PM »
I doubt that Earth's moon would be observable by Kepler. ?? What would it take to find planets with massive moons?
(Assuming of course that Earth and Moon orbited some distant star.)
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Offline marsavian

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1161 on: 02/25/2011 03:09 PM »

Thirdly, it seems to me the most plausible answer to the Fermi question is that we are alone (at least in the Milky Way).

The Kepler results actually suggest this. Although it has found many planets, even the Earth-sized ones found are much less dense than rocky planets. The preliminary data suggests that even small planets tend to be miniature gas or ice planets rather than rocky planets. If rocky planets are rare, complex life is rare as well.


There is a very controversial theory first proposed by retired NASA chemist Professor Oliver Manual that attempts to explain this by suggesting that the Sun and the planets are the end products of a supernova star explosion rather than a normal evolution star. So the theory goes the Sun is a Neutron Star core surrounded by a molten core of Iron topped up with a plasma of Hydrogen and Helium, make of that what you will !! ;)

http://www.thesunisiron.com/
http://www.omatumr.com/
http://www.omatumr.com/papers.html
http://www.omatumr.com/PapersArxiv.html

Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1162 on: 02/25/2011 04:34 PM »
No, I'm not referring to Manual's theory at all.

I am referring to the Kepler-11 data. Kepler-11 is the system with the tightly packed planets, all of them around Earth-sized. The Kepler-11 system is the only system where the densities of the planets can be predicted within a reasonable range. The densities of these planets are all estimated to be significantly lighter than rocky planets. Also, Kepler has found mostly Neptune-sized as well, even though Earth-sized planets are clearly within the sensitivity limits of the instruments. Both of these findings suggest that rocky planets are rare.


Offline Elmar_M

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1163 on: 02/25/2011 05:34 PM »
Kurt9
Uhm, I dont think that your information is up to date:
According to this article on Next Big Future, Kepler has so far found 1200 planets among those are 68 in the size of earth x1.25 or smaller.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/02/kepler-telescope-related-what-is.html
Basically the idea is that there might be up to 500 million planets in the habitable zone in this galaxy (not all of them rocky or earth sized of course). But if only a small fraction of those are of habitable size and composition, you would still get a huge amount of habitable planets...
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/02/extrapolation-of-kepler-telescopes.html

Edit:
Why were the links in my message edited, hello? I am hereby editing them back. If you edit them, at least provide a reason!
I did not put THAT (dead) link into my message!
Anyway, I apologize for the dead link in my message that some joker thought he could edit in.
« Last Edit: 02/25/2011 06:36 PM by Elmar_M »

Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1164 on: 02/25/2011 06:42 PM »
Kurt9
Uhm, I dont think that your information is up to date:
According to this article on Next Big Future, Kepler has so far found 1200 planets among those are 68 in the size of earth x1.25 or smaller.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/02/kepler-telescope-related-what-is.html
Basically the idea is that there might be up to 500 million planets in the habitable zone in this galaxy (not all of them rocky or earth sized of course). But if only a small fraction of those are of habitable size and composition, you would still get a huge amount of habitable planets...
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/02/extrapolation-of-kepler-telescopes.html

Edit:
Why were the links in my message edited, hello? I am hereby editing them back. If you edit them, at least provide a reason!
I did not put THAT (dead) link into my message!
Anyway, I apologize for the dead link in my message that some joker thought he could edit in.

Astrophysicists also claim that rogue planets with tumultuous cores could sustain life. And let's not forget the billions of Jupiter-sized gas giants with several moons that could support life. The chances of us being alone are ridiculously slim, it seems.

Offline Elmar_M

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1165 on: 02/25/2011 06:57 PM »
Quote
Astrophysicists also claim that rogue planets with tumultuous cores could sustain life. And let's not forget the billions of Jupiter-sized gas giants with several moons that could support life. The chances of us being alone are ridiculously slim, it seems.

From the looks of it, in the range of 1:500 million...
I would say that are pretty good odds for not being allone.
The German Astrophysicist Harald Lesch (I recommend his shows on the Bayern TV- channels to everyone who speaks German!) had a good argument though, that I have not found a satisfying counter to so far (it is kinda related to Fermis paradox).
Lesch said in one of his shows that given the cosmic timescales and the dimension of the galaxy, if interstellar spacetravel is possible and intelligent life is not extremely rare, we should be surrounded by space traveling aliens. Unless we are the first and highest developed ones, where are they? A million years is nothing in the galactic timeframe. So it would be likely that there would be aliens that are technologically 1 million years ahead of us. One million years is a lot of time ot conquer the galaxy. Why arent they here yet?
I have no answer to this, honestly. Maybe they are not interested in earth. Maybe they decided to leave our planet allone for some reason...
As hard as I try, I can not counter him there.

Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1166 on: 02/25/2011 07:29 PM »


From the looks of it, in the range of 1:500 million...
I would say that are pretty good odds for not being allone.
The German Astrophysicist Harald Lesch (I recommend his shows on the Bayern TV- channels to everyone who speaks German!) had a good argument though, that I have not found a satisfying counter to so far (it is kinda related to Fermis paradox).
Lesch said in one of his shows that given the cosmic timescales and the dimension of the galaxy, if interstellar spacetravel is possible and intelligent life is not extremely rare, we should be surrounded by space traveling aliens. Unless we are the first and highest developed ones, where are they? A million years is nothing in the galactic timeframe. So it would be likely that there would be aliens that are technologically 1 million years ahead of us. One million years is a lot of time ot conquer the galaxy. Why arent they here yet?
I have no answer to this, honestly. Maybe they are not interested in earth. Maybe they decided to leave our planet allone for some reason...
As hard as I try, I can not counter him there.

That is essentially Fermi's paradox re-stated.

As to why they aren't here yet: why would they be?

I've always thought its kind of anthropocentric of us to assume that an arbitrarily advanced civilization would be interested in us. The suggestion that an alien race capable of building hyper-intelligent machines or Jupiter brains as is hypothesized by physicists (or better yet, civilizations who have successfully developed the M-E technology discussed in this thread that could possibly generate exotic matter) would come down to Earth and introduce themselves is laughable. We simply have nothing to offer them - they have everything they need. That doesn't mean they're not interested, but they would find ways of satisfying their curiosity without actually being seen or intruding. After all, we are talking about Type II-III civilizations that have survived for millions, perhaps billions of years. I'd wager they would have quite a bit of experience dealing with primitive civilizations such as our own.

Then there's also the possibility that they've already been here sometime in Earth's 4.5 billion year history. Or maybe some galactic event wiped out several of them. Or once a civilization experiences a technological singularity, they retreat into what John Smart calls "inner space". It's called a paradox for a reason - it's not easy to solve.
« Last Edit: 02/25/2011 07:29 PM by GeeGee »

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1167 on: 02/25/2011 07:36 PM »
I love this subject and I took part in it too, but maybe we should drop it, since its quite off-topic. Of course, if we can discover and use propellantless propulsion, there are implications on the question of aliens also using them, why they are not here, etc. But we should discuss that in other thread.

lets limit this thread to advanced propulsion concepts and its implication in human society only.

Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1168 on: 02/25/2011 08:52 PM »
I love this subject and I took part in it too, but maybe we should drop it, since its quite off-topic. Of course, if we can discover and use propellantless propulsion, there are implications on the question of aliens also using them, why they are not here, etc. But we should discuss that in other thread.

lets limit this thread to advanced propulsion concepts and its implication in human society only.

You're right. Back to the topic

Paul: I had a question directed at you but it got lost in the flood of comments a few pages back. Here it is again in case you missed it:

"This is unrelated to the discussion at hand but what does Woodward have to say about zero-point energy & the apparent magnitude of it?

Bernard Haisch & Garret Moddel released a patent in 2008 for "extracting energy from the vacuum" which has yielded some rather interesting experimental results (although still quite inconclusive.) If they do somehow manage to extract this energy (I highly doubt it), how would this be interpreted by Woodward's theory?"

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1169 on: 02/25/2011 09:07 PM »
I love this subject and I took part in it too, but maybe we should drop it, since its quite off-topic. Of course, if we can discover and use propellantless propulsion, there are implications on the question of aliens also using them, why they are not here, etc. But we should discuss that in other thread.

lets limit this thread to advanced propulsion concepts and its implication in human society only.

Folks:

I agree with AcesHigh that the discussion of habitual planets needs to be on a separate thread, but I'll make one parting comment on the topic that some of you may blanch at, but need to ponder when talking about the topic of are we alone in this galaxy?  The 5% of UFO reports that can NOT be explained away by conventional human controlled vehicles, Venus, Jupiter, swamp gas or just about any other mundane possibility you care to name.  And while you are at it, try to explain what that 1957 USAF RB-47 ECM crew were chasing for several hours...
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Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1170 on: 02/25/2011 09:12 PM »
I love this subject and I took part in it too, but maybe we should drop it, since its quite off-topic. Of course, if we can discover and use propellantless propulsion, there are implications on the question of aliens also using them, why they are not here, etc. But we should discuss that in other thread.

lets limit this thread to advanced propulsion concepts and its implication in human society only.

You're right. Back to the topic

Paul: I had a question directed at you but it got lost in the flood of comments a few pages back. Here it is again in case you missed it:

"This is unrelated to the discussion at hand but what does Woodward have to say about zero-point energy & the apparent magnitude of it?

Bernard Haisch & Garret Moddel released a patent in 2008 for "extracting energy from the vacuum" which has yielded some rather interesting experimental results (although still quite inconclusive.) If they do somehow manage to extract this energy (I highly doubt it), how would this be interpreted by Woodward's theory?"

GeeGee:

Woodward is not at all fond of the ZPE field and he thinks that most of the effects attributed to it like the Casimir force can be explained by E&M charges in matierals interacting.  In otherwords, the vacuum per Woodward is a void with no energy content whatsoever.  Of coruse Jim has yet to explain the Dark Energy issue, but then again nobody else has either...
Star-Drive

Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1171 on: 02/25/2011 10:33 PM »
I know its not popularly regarded here. But Extended Heim Theory does explain Dark Energy.

The Haisch and Moddel patent describes a method for extracting energy from the vacuum using MEMS devices of various designs. They even received $200k in funding from a Colorado organization to construct prototype devices. The MEMS devices proposed in the patent do not seem particularly difficult or expensive to fabricate using a commercial MEMS foundry or one of these university "nano-fabrication" facilities. I've not heard anything more about this since this funding announcement. I've noticed Earthtech has been very quiet the last couple of years.

In one of his papers, Woodward suggests that electromagnetic ZPE concepts are not compatible with GRT because they are not background independent.
« Last Edit: 02/25/2011 10:44 PM by kurt9 »

Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1172 on: 02/25/2011 11:26 PM »
I know its not popularly regarded here. But Extended Heim Theory does explain Dark Energy.

The Haisch and Moddel patent describes a method for extracting energy from the vacuum using MEMS devices of various designs. They even received $200k in funding from a Colorado organization to construct prototype devices. The MEMS devices proposed in the patent do not seem particularly difficult or expensive to fabricate using a commercial MEMS foundry or one of these university "nano-fabrication" facilities. I've not heard anything more about this since this funding announcement. I've noticed Earthtech has been very quiet the last couple of years.

In one of his papers, Woodward suggests that electromagnetic ZPE concepts are not compatible with GRT because they are not background independent.

There actually have been some updates to the energy extraction device. In fact, the results of a recent experiment was given at the annual meeting of the society for scientific exploration last year.

http://ecee.colorado.edu/~moddel/QEL/ZPE.html

Also, regarding Heim theory: I'm going to remain skeptical until some actual experiments are done.
« Last Edit: 02/25/2011 11:30 PM by GeeGee »

Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1173 on: 02/26/2011 12:33 AM »
I don't know if anyone saw this on the arXiv physics blog, but this is pretty interesting.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26436/

Now all that's required is some solid evidence of exotic matter.

Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1174 on: 02/26/2011 12:58 AM »


Cuddihy:

My ideas on FTL communications have evolved since I authored that Stair-Steps to the Stars presentation some eight years ago.  Now think about driving a toroidal ring of dielectric that is bulk accelerated and driven with enough ac power (dP/dt) to evoke the M-E wormhole term that in turn creates a nano-to-micro OD wormhole at the center of this toroid with its destination in space and time at X & Y.  Next aim a modulated laser beam into your end of the wormhole while having your partner put a laser receiver at the other end of the wormhole.  You will note that just a few nano seconds is used for the laser beam to traverse the wormhole no matter where or when in the universe the wormhole exit and reciever may be placed. 

I vote for Mike Lorrey's Fermi Pardox solution D.  ("D) The use of active high powered radio wave transmissions by intelligent species is a short-lived phase of technological development lasting 100-200 years on average")  ... To be replaced by near instantaneous M-E wormhole comm links...

Its my understanding, from reading the "2004 flux capacitor" paper, that the dielectric material alone is not sufficient for this. You need the piezo-material to "rectify" the dielectric mass fluctuation, as well as the "reaction mass" that is made negative by the wormhole term of the equation. This suggests a three layer structure, as well as the electrodes for both the dielectric and the piezo layers.

Is this correct?

Offline Star-Drive

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1175 on: 02/26/2011 03:26 AM »


Cuddihy:

My ideas on FTL communications have evolved since I authored that Stair-Steps to the Stars presentation some eight years ago.  Now think about driving a toroidal ring of dielectric that is bulk accelerated and driven with enough ac power (dP/dt) to evoke the M-E wormhole term that in turn creates a nano-to-micro OD wormhole at the center of this toroid with its destination in space and time at X & Y.  Next aim a modulated laser beam into your end of the wormhole while having your partner put a laser receiver at the other end of the wormhole.  You will note that just a few nano seconds is used for the laser beam to traverse the wormhole no matter where or when in the universe the wormhole exit and reciever may be placed. 

I vote for Mike Lorrey's Fermi Pardox solution D.  ("D) The use of active high powered radio wave transmissions by intelligent species is a short-lived phase of technological development lasting 100-200 years on average")  ... To be replaced by near instantaneous M-E wormhole comm links...

Its my understanding, from reading the "2004 flux capacitor" paper, that the dielectric material alone is not sufficient for this. You need the piezo-material to "rectify" the dielectric mass fluctuation, as well as the "reaction mass" that is made negative by the wormhole term of the equation. This suggests a three layer structure, as well as the electrodes for both the dielectric and the piezo layers.

Is this correct?

How you want to bulk accelerate the dielectric is up to you.  A PZT stack is one such approach.
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Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1176 on: 02/26/2011 09:18 PM »
It seems Nembo Buldrini is presenting a paper on the Mach Effect at this year's SPESIF


Title: Possible Mach Effects in Bodies Accelerated by Non-Uniform Magnetic Fields

Abstract. Transient mass fluctuations are predicted by Woodward in accelerated bodies which are subjected to a change of their internal energy. This sort of effects goes under the name of Mach effects. Proving their existence would lead to a relatively fast development of rapid space transportation systems. Several tests have been pursued by Woodward himself and others, the results being sometimes elusive and contrasting. The potential of this research field, however, justifies further investigation. Until now, the tests have been conducted using exclusively capacitors as means of energy storage, and the acceleration has been supplied by the Lorentz force or by a piezoelectric actuator. The present work explores the possibility to search for Mach effects in bodies subjected to impulsive forces caused by a non-uniform magnetic field. Such magnetic field would provide both the acceleration and the change in the internal energy of the body, required for the expression of Mach effects. It will be shown that an impulsive (bell shaped) force applied to a special sort of test body should produce an anomalous final speed of the body itself.  A qualitative analysis is  presented and a possible experimental setup is outlined.


http://ias-spes.org/SPESIF2011/AGENDA/Abstracts/14_Buldrini_abs.pdf


I wonder if he plans to carry out this experiment himself later this year?
« Last Edit: 02/26/2011 09:20 PM by GeeGee »

Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1177 on: 02/28/2011 01:11 AM »
I know its not popularly regarded here. But Extended Heim Theory does explain Dark Energy.

The Haisch and Moddel patent describes a method for extracting energy from the vacuum using MEMS devices of various designs. They even received $200k in funding from a Colorado organization to construct prototype devices. The MEMS devices proposed in the patent do not seem particularly difficult or expensive to fabricate using a commercial MEMS foundry or one of these university "nano-fabrication" facilities. I've not heard anything more about this since this funding announcement. I've noticed Earthtech has been very quiet the last couple of years.

In one of his papers, Woodward suggests that electromagnetic ZPE concepts are not compatible with GRT because they are not background independent.

There actually have been some updates to the energy extraction device. In fact, the results of a recent experiment was given at the annual meeting of the society for scientific exploration last year.

http://ecee.colorado.edu/~moddel/QEL/ZPE.html

Also, regarding Heim theory: I'm going to remain skeptical until some actual experiments are done.

The EarthTech people have tried the experiment where they run Hydrogen gas between two casimer plates 100nm apart. They say they got a null result.

Yes, Heim Theory is an open question until someone actual does the suggested experiment. What is clear is that "bosonic coupling does not exist. Doing the "fermionic" coupling test requires the superconducting coil capable of generating a 30 Tesla magnetic field. It will be several years before this experiment can be performed.

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1178 on: 02/28/2011 02:02 AM »
...
I thought SETI was actually assuming that already and was looking for non-stray transmissions, instead. Surely a tight beam aimed at nearby stars wouldn't get drowned out so quickly?

Well the example used in the calculator required some pretty big & powerful equipment to both send and detect a tight beam at 20 LY.

If the criteria now includes the alien civilization has to be making a massive effort to communicate, and is within say 100 LY, and has targeted our system, then there could be thousands in our galaxy, and we still wouldn't know.

Normal communications radio signals are rather broad beam and do die out after a dozen or two dozen light years. But there are narrow beam transmissions that sweep across a large area of the sky but focus all their power on a small patch at regular intervals, such as radars. The early warning radars used by NORAD, for instance.

Another thing to consider is electromagnetic and gravitational lensing. Jupiter's electromagnetic field should lense Earth's transmissions, and possibly amplify them by inductance as well. The Sun might do a similar thing.
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Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1179 on: 02/28/2011 02:10 AM »
Dyson Spheres and other megastructures were made under the limitless growth paradigm where it looked like industrial economies were just going to keep on growing indefinitely - due to population growth. Europe and Japan show that that's not going to happen as a given. Our own civilisation will cap growth at 12 billion.

Advanced civilisations will do who knows what. They may just virtualise themselves and live in a small lump of computronium.

Limitations on population growth do not imply a concurrent limitation on demand for computational resources. In fact, the more expensive it becomes to build and operate meat-ware computers (people) versus non-meatware, the faster the demand for computational resources will grow. Dyson spheres, matrioshka brains, etc are not about human overpopulation, they are about maximizing the capture of solar power from one's home star, with which to power computation.

Population growth on Earth is limited only because resources on Earth are limited: space, water, food, energy, etc. When you open the resource system, limitations on population growth are eliminated. That's the whole point of space colonization, or had you not gotten that point?
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