Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 663916 times)

Offline 93143

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1080 on: 02/01/2011 05:02 PM »
Wouldn't you at least have to bring something to where you want the other end of the wormhole?  You couldn't just open a wormhole to anywhere you wanted, and even if you could it would be exceptionally difficult to keep it stably targeted.

Not to mention that even if the planet you opened a wormhole to had a technically breathable atmosphere and no hostile life forms or toxic dust or such (which I suppose you could potentially determine with a pinhole wormhole before opening a transit-grade hole onto somewhere like COROT-7b), conditions would probably be different enough that it would be impractical and likely dangerous to maintain a link through which matter could travel.

Remember that while planetary surface gravity doesn't vary wildly (Saturn's gravity at the equatorial cloud tops is 1.065 gees), atmospheric pressure does.

You could open the wormhole into a space station or ground station built for the purpose, but that would require you to travel there longhand to put up the structure.  Much as I suspect you would need to do to set up the stargate in the first place...

Offline kkattula

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1081 on: 02/01/2011 05:58 PM »
I was thinking the same.  The practical difficulties of establishing a wormhole between planetary surfaces would have to be huge:

Accurate targeting
Constantly compensating for relative movement
Pressure differentials
Biological cross contamination

Not to mention safety. That's a lot of energy being manipulated. Not sure I want that on the surface of the planet I live on...

Most likely if a wormhole can be created and targeted, it would be from interplanetary space (perhaps an Earth Trojan point?) to somewhere in the vicinity of the destination star. Then ME spacecraft would ferry people from Earth through the wormhole and on to their destination.

I wouldn't put one anywhere near Earth, in case something bad happened. Like an asteroid from the destination system coming through at high relative velocity. Even though it would be unlikely to hit Earth, it could smash the wormhole generator, or waiting ship, and flood near-Earth space with debris.

Offline Sith

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1082 on: 02/01/2011 06:47 PM »
Sith:

You might be interested in reading Woodward's latest paper when it's published in Foundations of Physics later this year.  It's about how the M-E can be applied to the Warp Drive and Stargate problem discussed in this video.  It's 26 pages long and it covers some new and interesting ground on how to make warp drives and stargtates using the M-E's wormhole and higher terms to generate the required amount of exotic or negative G/I mass needed to create same.
Thank you, Paul, for doing this for us. I appreciate it. I'll read it as soon as you post it.

And no, Jupiter sized exotic G/I masses will not be required for that estimate is a worst case.  It turns out it could be much, much less...
Which means that for the last 17 years (since Miguel Alcubierre made his publish), we already have theoretical progress. Cool!

I hope that I will at least live up to see the first robotic G/I probe sent to Alpha Centauri! I can't dare to dream further.

Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1083 on: 02/01/2011 10:11 PM »
I was thinking the same.  The practical difficulties of establishing a wormhole between planetary surfaces would have to be huge:

Accurate targeting
Constantly compensating for relative movement
Pressure differentials
Biological cross contamination

Not to mention safety. That's a lot of energy being manipulated. Not sure I want that on the surface of the planet I live on...

You just need a good feedback control system. The cost savings from eliminating the use of any kind of spacecraft ought to pay for a really  good control system. The pressure differentials and biological cross contamination can be dealt with by putting the wormhole generator in a semiconductor-fab like clean room. This is no big deal.

As for energy manipulated, Woodward's paper suggests that it does not require that much energy to make the wormhole. It is the negative "wormhole" energy term that comes out of the Mach-Lorentz equation that generates the wormhole itself.

The economics of this are nice. This kind of wormhole is like a toll bridge or tunnel. The costs are the capital costs to build the generator and the running costs to operate it. The more people who walk through your wormhole, the more revenue you get.

Quote
Most likely if a wormhole can be created and targeted, it would be from interplanetary space (perhaps an Earth Trojan point?) to somewhere in the vicinity of the destination star. Then ME spacecraft would ferry people from Earth through the wormhole and on to their destination.

You can do this as well. Of course, you need spacecraft (like a commercial airliner version of March's Warpstar) to go through it.  Geostationary would be better than the Trojan point because the travel time from planet to planet would only be a few hours, like commercial air travel today. If its at the Trojan point, the travel time can be several days, which means you need state rooms for passengers just like a ship making it a lot more expensive.

Offline mikorangester

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1084 on: 02/02/2011 05:13 AM »
Ok.  I bit.  From:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=mass+of+an+electron

Quote
electron mass = 9.10938188 10-31 kilograms

and from:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=mass+of+a+proton

proton mass = 1.67262158 10-27 kilograms

Which is about 1/1836?  Ish?  So when I got to the part in your blog where you state that  "The mass of the electron is 1/10000 the mass of the proton", I stopped.  Personally, I'm not in total understanding of the theory as outlined by Woodward and March;  I don't have what it takes to work with data that appears incorrect.  I notice that Mike Lorrey posted a comment on your site.  In addition, your "How to" graphic was illegible in my viewer.

As a side note, I wondered about the "reactions" that you seem to be expecting from your readers:  "Funny"?

Its an approximation only. The model is what is interesting, well to me anyway. Reactions? Thought I was indicating that there are models out there that shows propellantless field propulsion not only to be workable but within technological reach, or is simple explanations not egg headish enough?

My reaction is you still haven't responded to my comment on your blog, which correctly points out that using electromagnetic waves to cause atoms to move is the central method of the Hall Thruster, a form of ion or plasma drive. It most certainly is NOT propellantless or reactionless, and has absolutely nothing to do with Woodward's Mach Effect. You are a, to quote Jack Sarfatti, a scientific cargo cultist.

The reason I have not replied is that the model is so simple that it is unnecessary to reply.

Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1085 on: 02/03/2011 06:23 PM »
The way to do it is with several wormholes. Have one wormhole that goes from some kind of terminal on Earth (say, in LA) that goes to the L-5 point. Since these two points do not vary in distance, it should be easy to keep the wormhole stable between these two point. The intersteller wormhole would have its opening some distance away since it will tend to move about. The other opening would be in a similar location around the target planet. Then you have the local wormhole to take you to the surface.

This arrangement is nice because the travel time would only be a few hours at most and the craft itself would be a commercial airliner equivalent of March's warpstar. Since the travel times are only a few hours, you don't need staterooms, restaurants, and the like and the travel cost per person would be quite low. A few hundred to a thousand dollars, kind of like flying to Asia or Europe.

Offline 93143

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1086 on: 02/04/2011 03:18 AM »
You guys are all focusing on the control and hazard problems (badly underestimating the control problems, IMO), and blithely assuming that opening a stable wormhole to a specific distant point is possible at all.

The proposal I recall was to generate the wormhole over a very short distance under controlled conditions (both ends would need support equipment), and then cart one end of the wormhole over to wherever it needs to be.

I find myself wondering if this would actually work using a warp drive, or whether that would disrupt the wormhole too much.  It might prove necessary to transport the stargate at sublight speeds...

At the very least, I would expect that you'd need support equipment at both ends.

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1087 on: 02/07/2011 01:52 AM »
supposing that wormholes are indeed possible without time paradoxes and stuff... would we be able to DETECT a wormhole???

i mean... lets say we are a bit xenophobic and are suspicious of the possibility of aliens having easy access to our star system. Would we be able to detect such breaches in our defenses?

Offline kkattula

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1088 on: 02/07/2011 01:58 AM »
supposing that wormholes are indeed possible without time paradoxes and stuff... would we be able to DETECT a wormhole???

i mean... lets say we are a bit xenophobic and are suspicious of the possibility of aliens having easy access to our star system. Would we be able to detect such breaches in our defenses?

What defenses? 

We don't even know where all the Earth Orbit crossing objects in our solar system are, and have no way to stop any impactors we might detect.

Worrying about alien wormholes is a bit premature. If hostile aliens have that technology already we're stuffed.

And I for one would welcome our new alien overlords.  :)

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1089 on: 02/07/2011 04:08 PM »
just having some fun, and anyway, I was asking it theoretically... and with future technologies.

but... I guess detecting wormholes wouldnt use exactly the same methods as detecting asteroids, would it?

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1090 on: 02/07/2011 04:18 PM »
supposing that wormholes are indeed possible without time paradoxes and stuff... would we be able to DETECT a wormhole???

i mean... lets say we are a bit xenophobic and are suspicious of the possibility of aliens having easy access to our star system. Would we be able to detect such breaches in our defenses?

What defenses? 

We don't even know where all the Earth Orbit crossing objects in our solar system are, and have no way to stop any impactors we might detect.

Worrying about alien wormholes is a bit premature. If hostile aliens have that technology already we're stuffed.

And I for one would welcome our new alien overlords.  :)

Interesting concept...

The industrial level required to send even a small probe from Alpha Centauri on a 75 year sublight trip is approximately equivalent to the year 2500 A.D. If it was actually a war of conquest with military-level like devotion of the industrial complex, maybe then we could hope to fight back because their equivalent tech and industrial development level would be lower.

So if we shoot at the alien equivalents of NASA, we'd be stuffed because then the alien equivalent of the USAF rolls in.
« Last Edit: 02/07/2011 04:20 PM by Lampyridae »
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Offline kurt9

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1091 on: 02/07/2011 04:34 PM »
If any of these technologies (Mach Lorentz thrusters, wormholes, etc.) are possible, it makes it even more likely that we are alone in the galaxy, at least. These technologies make it easier to spread through out the galaxy. If there are aliens, they most certainly should have done this by now and the galaxy should look like central Tokyo. It does not.

Also, the initial Kepler data shows the expected number of planets in the HZ, but that those planets are more like Neptune than Earth. This would certainly put a crimp on the evolution of ET's.

Online cuddihy

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1092 on: 02/07/2011 05:14 PM »
If any of these technologies (Mach Lorentz thrusters, wormholes, etc.) are possible, it makes it even more likely that we are alone in the galaxy, at least. These technologies make it easier to spread through out the galaxy. If there are aliens, they most certainly should have done this by now and the galaxy should look like central Tokyo. It does not.

Also, the initial Kepler data shows the expected number of planets in the HZ, but that those planets are more like Neptune than Earth. This would certainly put a crimp on the evolution of ET's.

Huh?

Just because there may be aliens doesn't mean they want to talk to us.

Our galaxy could be the stellar equivalent of Tokyo and we're in the position of tribal Tongans who don't have a clue about it.

Also, Kepler shows a number of planets that are Neptune sized because those are easier to see by several orders of magnitude, not because there are necessarily more than expected. Based on our solar system, you would expect the numbers to be "about equal," but I would expect gas giants to dominate slightly due to the gravitational effects on smaller planets.

to quote the wikipedia entry,
Quote

Since Kepler must see at least three transits to be sure the dimming was caused by a planet, and since larger planets give a signal that is easier to check, scientists expect the first reported results will be larger Jupiter sized planets in tight orbits. The first of these were reported after only a few months of operation. Smaller planets, and planets further from their sun will take longer, and discovering planets comparable to Earth is expected to take three years or longer.

« Last Edit: 02/07/2011 05:15 PM by cuddihy »

Offline mlorrey

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1093 on: 02/08/2011 10:37 PM »
I was thinking the same.  The practical difficulties of establishing a wormhole between planetary surfaces would have to be huge:

Accurate targeting
Constantly compensating for relative movement
Pressure differentials
Biological cross contamination

Not to mention safety. That's a lot of energy being manipulated. Not sure I want that on the surface of the planet I live on...

Most likely if a wormhole can be created and targeted, it would be from interplanetary space (perhaps an Earth Trojan point?) to somewhere in the vicinity of the destination star. Then ME spacecraft would ferry people from Earth through the wormhole and on to their destination.

I wouldn't put one anywhere near Earth, in case something bad happened. Like an asteroid from the destination system coming through at high relative velocity. Even though it would be unlikely to hit Earth, it could smash the wormhole generator, or waiting ship, and flood near-Earth space with debris.

Well I've actually proposed the first gated wormholes to be established between Titan and Mars, as a conduit to vent Titanian atmosphere into the Martian atmosphere, densifying it rather quickly (to Earth-normal levels within a few years) for rapid terraforming of the Martian surface.

This sort of project would help work out all the kinks of operating stargates at much longer distances.
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Offline aero

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1094 on: 02/09/2011 12:04 AM »
I was thinking the same.  The practical difficulties of establishing a wormhole between planetary surfaces would have to be huge:

Accurate targeting
Constantly compensating for relative movement
Pressure differentials
Biological cross contamination

Not to mention safety. That's a lot of energy being manipulated. Not sure I want that on the surface of the planet I live on...

Most likely if a wormhole can be created and targeted, it would be from interplanetary space (perhaps an Earth Trojan point?) to somewhere in the vicinity of the destination star. Then ME spacecraft would ferry people from Earth through the wormhole and on to their destination.

I wouldn't put one anywhere near Earth, in case something bad happened. Like an asteroid from the destination system coming through at high relative velocity. Even though it would be unlikely to hit Earth, it could smash the wormhole generator, or waiting ship, and flood near-Earth space with debris.

Well I've actually proposed the first gated wormholes to be established between Titan and Mars, as a conduit to vent Titanian atmosphere into the Martian atmosphere, densifying it rather quickly (to Earth-normal levels within a few years) for rapid terraforming of the Martian surface.

This sort of project would help work out all the kinks of operating stargates at much longer distances.
Did you consider atmosphere transfer from Venus to Mars, or perhaps to Mars from a combination of sources? Water from some ice moons, for example. Would the water pressure be high enough? Just thinking about the make-up of the resulting Martian atmosphere.
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Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1095 on: 02/09/2011 07:23 PM »


Well I've actually proposed the first gated wormholes to be established between Titan and Mars, as a conduit to vent Titanian atmosphere into the Martian atmosphere, densifying it rather quickly (to Earth-normal levels within a few years) for rapid terraforming of the Martian surface.

This sort of project would help work out all the kinks of operating stargates at much longer distances.

The biggest problem with terraforming Mars is its very weak magnetic field. Humans wouldn't be able to survive there for long with the bombardment of cosmic rays. I don't really know any way around that problem besides habitation modules.

Online Cherokee43v6

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1096 on: 02/09/2011 07:27 PM »


Well I've actually proposed the first gated wormholes to be established between Titan and Mars, as a conduit to vent Titanian atmosphere into the Martian atmosphere, densifying it rather quickly (to Earth-normal levels within a few years) for rapid terraforming of the Martian surface.

This sort of project would help work out all the kinks of operating stargates at much longer distances.

The biggest problem with terraforming Mars is its very weak magnetic field. Humans wouldn't be able to survive there for long with the bombardment of cosmic rays. I don't really know any way around that problem besides habitation modules.

Well, we could mine all the copper in the Solar System then wrap Mars like an electric motor then start applying current ;)
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Offline GeeGee

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1097 on: 02/09/2011 10:51 PM »


Well, we could mine all the copper in the Solar System then wrap Mars like an electric motor then start applying current ;)

That sounds like it would take quite a bit of resources and time. Maybe too much to consider it viable.

Offline LegendCJS

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1098 on: 02/09/2011 11:10 PM »


Well I've actually proposed the first gated wormholes to be established between Titan and Mars, as a conduit to vent Titanian atmosphere into the Martian atmosphere, densifying it rather quickly (to Earth-normal levels within a few years) for rapid terraforming of the Martian surface.

This sort of project would help work out all the kinks of operating stargates at much longer distances.

The biggest problem with terraforming Mars is its very weak magnetic field. Humans wouldn't be able to survive there for long with the bombardment of cosmic rays. I don't really know any way around that problem besides habitation modules.

Well, we could mine all the copper in the Solar System then wrap Mars like an electric motor then start applying current ;)

Live in caves, or develop gene therapies that make the damage irrelevant (certainly possible in the future we are talking about).  The issue with tera-forming mars and a lack of a planetary magnetic field is that the solar wind will blow away any atmosphere over long enough time scales.
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Offline 93143

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1099 on: 02/10/2011 01:29 AM »
Would it help if Mars had a large moon?

This is the M-E thread, after all...

...

Alternately, might it be possible to drill holes at the poles and backfill with molten iron, down to the point where a magnetic connection could be made with the core, and then simply energize?  Or would convective effects in the mantle ruin any such attempt?

The loss of atmosphere is such a planetary-scale problem that I suspect it warrants a planetary-scale solution.

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