Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 691717 times)

Offline Peacekeeper

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Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« on: 05/11/2008 08:07 AM »
Why does NASA not turn much attention on this revolutionary propulsion, which will make spaceflight accessible to everybody, instead of a few chosen 3-4 times per year?
Not only rockets are danger, but their potential is limited. I know about laser and other type of propulsions, but a spacecraft directed by this concentrated light is dependent on the same source.
Space - The Final Frontier!

Offline Jim

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1 on: 05/11/2008 01:00 PM »
$$$$$

Offline Peacekeeper

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #2 on: 05/11/2008 02:35 PM »
Quote
Jim - 11/5/2008  4:00 PM

$$$$$
Aren't 16 billion $ per year not enough :?
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Offline Tim S

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #3 on: 05/11/2008 02:44 PM »
Quote
Peacekeeper - 11/5/2008  9:35 AM

Quote
Jim - 11/5/2008  4:00 PM

$$$$$
Aren't 16 billion $ per year not enough :?

No, not for side projects on pseudo-science. It's been spent on real vehicles and real science.

Offline Peacekeeper

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #4 on: 05/11/2008 04:45 PM »
Quote
Tim S - 11/5/2008  5:44 PM

Quote
Peacekeeper - 11/5/2008  9:35 AM

Quote
Jim - 11/5/2008  4:00 PM

$$$$$
Aren't 16 billion $ per year not enough :?

No, not for side projects on pseudo-science. It's been spent on real vehicles and real science.
They weren't real 60 years ago. They are real now, because of the progressive minds and their scientific work over the decades.  Attention, my friend, attention must be turned on such  "pseudo-science", like you said ;)     Some day the projects, of which I speak, will dominate over the primitive rockets, but I won't be alive to see it!
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Offline Jim

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #5 on: 05/11/2008 04:48 PM »
Quote
Peacekeeper - 11/5/2008  12:45 PM

Some day the projects, of which I speak, will dominate over the primitive rockets, but I won't be alive to see it!

You have no proof that they aren't pseudo-science or that they will work

Offline Jim

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #6 on: 05/11/2008 05:03 PM »
This isn't a conspiracy.  I speak against unfounded rumors and unresearched posts  

USENET is a good place for these discussions.

My job is to get spacecraft into orbit, it is doesn't matter how they get there.

Offline khallow

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #7 on: 05/11/2008 05:35 PM »
Thanks admins for trimming the nonsense from this thread. There are a number of propellantless methods for changing the momentum of a spacecraft, for example, aerobraking and gravity assists. But to be a possible propulsion technology, the effect needs to be clearly demonstrated first, and then scaled up to something viable. If we're going to use Earth's magnetic fields to get into space (which I assume are the fields you're refering to), then we need a model that generates net force. A key part of the problem is that the Earth's magnetic field primarily generates a torque (a rotation force) not a force pushing in a useful direction. The only ways I know of generating net forces in a particular direction involve structures on the scale of the Earth's magnetic field. For example, a giant conductive ring, looped around one of Earth's magnetic poles, could. through a suffiicently strong electric force travelling in the appropriate direction, generate a large net force that would push it away from Earth.

If you propose to use something like this on the scale of a rocket, then you need to explain the propulsion mechanism. In particular, why is it going to generate net force rather than flip the vehicle?
Karl Hallowell

Offline Peacekeeper

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #8 on: 05/11/2008 06:22 PM »
These and others, khallow, like the 'Tether'.  And 'Lifter' technology as well :)
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Offline meiza

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #9 on: 05/11/2008 08:22 PM »
"Lifters" use air as reaction mass, and need energy for the ionization and acceleration of the air. I wouldn't class it as propellantless since you need both an energy source and reaction mass. It's more like a propeller aircraft.

Tethers can use electrodynamics in low Earth orbit to respin after tossing a payload, and can produce the power for that from solar cells so it could be propellantless propulsion I guess that could perhaps work indefinitely since the momentum exchange is with the mass of Earth.

Then there are the solar sails, electrodynamic and electrostatic sails, all propellantless propulsion if thought of as that way that use the sun's light or the solar wind (which is an ion stream).

Offline cpcjr

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RE: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #10 on: 05/11/2008 09:20 PM »
Actually NASA already uses a “propellantless field propulsion” in the form of a gravitational slingshot that swings a space craft around on planet to give it a boost to another.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #11 on: 05/12/2008 12:49 AM »
Solar sails and tethers have already been tested. NASA has an advanced propulsion lab that used to do deal with all this before they got axed (or so I believe). The only technologies of interest appeared to be casimir effect drives and wormholes. Casimir effect is real, but the thrust is so far pathetic. Wormholes are still sci-fi for all intents and purposes but vaguely plausible.

>EDIT<

Peacekeeper, instead of starting off discussions without apparently knowing much about the subject, why not read the many threads contributed to by people who actually put nuts and bolts into space? Or work with REAL technology? I believe you will derive much more benefit by doing so first.
SKYLON... The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's preferred surface-to-orbit conveyance.

Offline Peacekeeper

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #12 on: 05/12/2008 05:30 AM »
Quote
meiza - 11/5/2008  11:22 PM

"Lifters" use air as reaction mass, and need energy for the ionization and acceleration of the air. I wouldn't class it as propellantless since you need both an energy source and reaction mass. It's more like a propeller aircraft.

Tethers can use electrodynamics in low Earth orbit to respin after tossing a payload, and can produce the power for that from solar cells so it could be propellantless propulsion I guess that could perhaps work indefinitely since the momentum exchange is with the mass of Earth.

Then there are the solar sails, electrodynamic and electrostatic sails, all propellantless propulsion if thought of as that way that use the sun's light or the solar wind (which is an ion stream).
Then what about microwave saucer shaped craft? The EmDrive :)  Can it replace today's rockets?
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Online Eerie

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #13 on: 05/12/2008 09:06 AM »
Can`t someone ban Peacekeeper? It is rather annoying.  :)

Offline hmh33

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #14 on: 05/12/2008 08:30 PM »
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Peacekeeper - 12/5/2008  1:30 AM
Then what about microwave saucer shaped craft? The EmDrive :)  Can it replace today's rockets?

No, because it is fake science.

Offline Disssident

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #15 on: 05/17/2008 05:42 PM »
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Jim - 11/5/2008  4:00 PM

$$$$$
How much?
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Offline khallow

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #16 on: 05/17/2008 08:16 PM »
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Disssident - 17/5/2008  10:42 AM

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Jim - 11/5/2008  4:00 PM

$$$$$
How much?

No idea. But you'd have to 1) find an effect, 2) make it large enough that it'd be useful for spacecraft propulsion, and 3) build economically viable engines that use the effect to get to orbit (as indicated by the original poster). If it is relatively easy, I think it'd take a few tens of billions. If the effect isn't useful for the purpose, then no amount of money will make a difference.
Karl Hallowell

Offline Disssident

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #17 on: 05/17/2008 09:00 PM »
Further research of Casimir effect is a key point of success! Several milion $ are enough to prove that a propulsion, based on this "phenomena", is possible!
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #18 on: 05/17/2008 11:03 PM »
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hmh33 - 13/5/2008  6:30 AM

Quote
Peacekeeper - 12/5/2008  1:30 AM
Then what about microwave saucer shaped craft? The EmDrive :)  Can it replace today's rockets?

No, because it is fake science.

EM-Drive is not fake science. They have a WORKING prototype and are moving towards a flight test in 2009. www.emdrive.com. This uses actual physics and obeys all the convervation laws.
Given finite cash, if we want to go to Mars then we should go to Mars.

Online hop

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #19 on: 05/18/2008 12:12 AM »
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Nathan - 17/5/2008  4:03 PM
EM-Drive is not fake science. They have a WORKING prototype and are moving towards a flight test in 2009. www.emdrive.com. This uses actual physics and obeys all the convervation laws.
He claims to have a working prototype. He claims it doesn't violate conservation of momentum, but many experts disagree.

See http://www.newscientist.com/blog/fromthepublisher/2006/10/emdrive-on-trial.html for various objections.

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