Not to mention, what would a few people and assorted stuff not normally carried do to the CG and behavior of the vehicle?
just a question:;If the Dragon CRS is berthed with the ISS , and an emergency happens on board, (:is it technically possible to "jump" into the Dragon, unberth it and return to earth ??(in current or slightly modified configuration) what about oxygen Supply , Air Pressure , Weight limitation, comm , control , etc.how many astronauts will fit inside ?
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct? Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land. So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time. And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible. Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct? Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
Quote from: Norm38 on 01/20/2012 09:49 pmFor the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct? Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".
Quote from: Danderman on 01/20/2012 09:58 pmQuote from: Norm38 on 01/20/2012 09:49 pmFor the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct? Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.
Quote from: Norm38 on 01/20/2012 09:49 pmFor the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct? Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land. So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time. And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible. Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than mass
Quote from: Lars_J on 01/20/2012 10:03 pmQuote from: Danderman on 01/20/2012 09:58 pmQuote from: Norm38 on 01/20/2012 09:49 pmFor the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct? Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.The point is that cargo vehicles based on crew vehicles are optimized to carry cargo. This optimization process means that systems that could be used to support crew are often deleted.
Quote from: Jim on 01/20/2012 09:52 pmQuote from: Norm38 on 01/20/2012 09:49 pmFor the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct? Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land. So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time. And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible. Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than massNo, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.It really might make sense to have a one-time "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon-1-2 small O2 candles + diffuser-LiO2 canister/fan systemThat kind of "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus
So? Most of mass required for crew return is already included in Dragon. Crew/Cargo dragon are both closer to Soyuz than Soyuz is to Progress on the basis of systems included/not included.Number one and two is obviously heat shield and parachutes.
Quote from: cuddihy on 01/20/2012 11:31 pmNo, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.It really might make sense to have a one-time "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon-1-2 small O2 candles + diffuser-LiO2 canister/fan systemThat kind of "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_ApparatusStill not viable because of the lack of volume for crew
No, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.It really might make sense to have a one-time "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon-1-2 small O2 candles + diffuser-LiO2 canister/fan systemThat kind of "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus
If you didn't need an LAS and life support for the longer uphill trip, and the SSRMS was operational, modifying a cargo Dragon to launch for a partial evacuation shouldn't be too hard. Say, if one of the Soyuz craft had a serious problem and couldn't be replaced for a while. Not something you'd do if you could avoid it, but an option if you needed one.
Quote from: Jim on 01/20/2012 03:12 pmNo (in one word)1. it can not unberth itself2. it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.3.There are no controls or commThe technical challenge is obvious.but what is needed technically to solve it ?the Soyuz has solution to all those issues .the Dragon as a craft designed as "human rated" can try to solve these issuesalso. At least it can land correctly , as the cheese cake test proved.
No (in one word)1. it can not unberth itself2. it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.3.There are no controls or comm
Quote from: chrisking0997 on 01/20/2012 04:21 pmI guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)? Would R2 be able to tackle those?Has R2 even done one thing more than PR stuff yet?
I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)? Would R2 be able to tackle those?
1) No life-support;2) No seats;3) Too small for 6 x PLSS packs (even if they had six EVA suits, which they don't)So, no chance.
I don't think seats are a problem. The cargo is usually held by straps, they could strap themselves to the floor.How many hours does it take from detach to splashdown?Also, is the cargo version sea impact speed low enough for humans to survive?
What are the flight readiness of Paragon Space Development Corporation's plug-and-play environmental control and life support system (ECLSS) Air Revitalization System (ARS)? Also the flight readiness of the ECLSS SpaceX is developing for the Dragon?
I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)?
Would R2 be able to tackle those?