Not entirely clear what this is about - Argentina owns (has rights to?) two SpaceX launches, but is in default somehow and now a US firm is suing SpaceX to try and get the rights, because Argentina won't give them up? seems a bit.. odd.http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-25/singer-s-nml-sues-musk-s-spacex-over-argentina-contracts-1
What is NML going to do if they win? Re-sell the launch services? Who knows, but I imagine they will ask SpaceX for a refund.
Quote from: starsilk on 03/26/2014 03:48 pmNot entirely clear what this is about - Argentina owns (has rights to?) two SpaceX launches, but is in default somehow and now a US firm is suing SpaceX to try and get the rights, because Argentina won't give them up? seems a bit.. odd.http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-25/singer-s-nml-sues-musk-s-spacex-over-argentina-contracts-1"Argentina’s contract for SpaceX launch slots" launch slots = deposits right? Not the full launch costs.
Seems like it. if you dont pay Your dept... But why sue SpaceX?
The point is, the contract value with SpaceX will be low because they are old "teaser" prices. So they pay a low price for the 2 launches and "subcontract" them out at current market price, pocketing the spread.
Ridiculous. NML tried something similar with that Argentine Navy Ship which was being held in a Ghanaian port.If you buy government bonds, the default risk is part of the deal. That's why yields are a lot higher for countries with precarious finances.
Quote from: Kabloona on 03/26/2014 04:34 pmThe point is, the contract value with SpaceX will be low because they are old "teaser" prices. So they pay a low price for the 2 launches and "subcontract" them out at current market price, pocketing the spread.Spacex can counter that they own the slots and will refund the money. LSC's usually don't allow resale of their services.
Is not only that Argentina defaulted. We also decided to repudiate the debt that didn't enter into a debt exchange program. The hold outs went to court, and the Argentina representatives stated that they would not follow the Court orders if it was against them (which was some of the most stupid statements I've ever heard). Thus, after repeated statements that they won't acknowledge the Court decisions only if it was against it, and given that the original bonds were issued under NY law, the Court basically told the hold outs to embargo whatever Argentina's Federal Government assets they can find that don't have diplomatic immunity (or are considered sovereign assets, or something like that). Thus, they found the SpaceX contract with CONAE for SAOCOM 1A/B. CONAE depends on the Federal Government, but is an autonomous entity. So the case is not very clear cut. It will be quite an interesting legal decision. And in the end is simply a tactic to actually get the government to enter into actual negotiations. Which they won't until this administration ends.The flights are about 18 to 12months from launch for the first and 24 to 36 for the second. And were extremely early contracts. I believe they were previous to v1.0 flight. So they might have very low values and be mostly down payment for the second one. There must be a significant amount of integration work, since the payload passed CDR six months ago. But that is non-refundable. In fact, I don't think anything will be refundable at this point. And trying to sell the launch to a third party will be difficult because of the integration issues. To put things into perspective, the total amount of debt only to this fund is around 1.7B.My personal take, besides the fact that my government did the worst possible negotiation with this guys, is that this is more a harassment/embarrassment tactic than an actual look for money.
Quote from: Elmar Moelzer on 03/26/2014 06:29 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 03/26/2014 05:49 pmI think SpaceX should tell them to stuff it. Did we hold Germany hostage to its unpaid debts after WW2?Uhmm, the US occupied Germany until 1994 and is still keeping bases there. So while not quite holding them hostage, I would not exactly use Germany as an example.The US also paid to rebuild Germany. The world learned after WW2 that forcing a country to go into depression to pay debts is counter-productive and can lead to Very Bad Things (TM). But this is more relevant for Greece. Off-topic anyway.Thanks for your perspective, baldusi.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 03/26/2014 05:49 pmI think SpaceX should tell them to stuff it. Did we hold Germany hostage to its unpaid debts after WW2?Uhmm, the US occupied Germany until 1994 and is still keeping bases there. So while not quite holding them hostage, I would not exactly use Germany as an example.
I think SpaceX should tell them to stuff it. Did we hold Germany hostage to its unpaid debts after WW2?