Author Topic: Could Direct allow Orion become more then a one trick pony?  (Read 8087 times)

Offline Patchouli

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Ok lets assume Ares I is dead and direct will replace it and that lame part on cargo and crew in the CAIB report is thrown out.

There is nothing dangerous about some cargo riding the same booster so long as the crew can still escape the launch vehicle.

The Jupiter 120 has a lot of excesses payload then just what is needed to lift Orion.

Now could this extra payload could be put to use on LEO Orion missions maybe and even allow earth sciences missions by using a spacehab arctus as a recoverable mission module.

I think the same setup be can used for launching station modules maybe canceled ISS segments or
parts for a new station.

The non castrated block two Orion has lots of delta V about 1640M/sec this makes it a natural space tug.

It also should also allow a Hubble servicing mission to be performed using just one launch vs two with ares I.
Lack of flexibility was one of the issues that doomed the Apollo spacecraft so maybe repeating this mistake should be avoided I'm not talking making it a do all like the shuttle but instead find a sensible middle ground between Apollo and the Shuttle in flexibility.

Offline MATTBLAK

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Hubble wont need/can't get another servicing mission after the one that's coming -- in only a few years it will be pretty much obsolete. That will seal it's fate. Other than that, I agree with much of what you said.
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Offline A_M_Swallow

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Hopefully a Jupiter-120 can lift the Orion to LM1/LM2 whilst carrying construction crew and some parts of the Mars rocket.

Offline madscientist197

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A_M_Swallow - 9/2/2008  10:17 PM

Hopefully a Jupiter-120 can lift the Orion to LM1/LM2 whilst carrying construction crew and some parts of the Mars rocket.

Jupiter 232 maybe - with the 120 you can't just trade ~30 ton less to orbit for an extra ~3000 m/s TLI. It would also have to be timed very precisely, even if it were possible, because the RS-68 can't restart in space.

It would be better to have automated assembly anyway - it saves ~25 tons of mass.
John

Offline A_M_Swallow

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I was assuming that the service module's restartable engine would perform the TLI.  The SM would need a large fuel tank.

Offline Analyst

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MATTBLAK - 10/2/2008  7:30 AM

Hubble wont need/can't get another servicing mission after the one that's coming -- in only a few years it will be pretty much obsolete. That will seal it's fate. Other than that, I agree with much of what you said.

I aggree with the "can't get" part. But I strongly disaggree with the "won't need" and "pretty much obsolete" part, as does the scientific community. Do you have any proof for your claim of HST becoming obsolete pretty sure? Where are equivalent follow ons ground based or in orbit?

Analyst

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Doing the maths people would have to use J-232 because it is a return journey.

For cargo about 15 metric tons can be delivered by the J-120 to EML-1.

delta-v LEO to EML-1 = 3770 m/s
ISP of AJ-10 = 319 s
thrust of AJ-10-118 = 7700 lbf (34 kN)
J-120 LEO payload = 50 mT

m1 = m0 exp(-delta-v / (ISP * g)) = 50 * exp(-3770 / (319 * 9.81)) = 14.99 mT

Offline MATTBLAK

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Okay, maybe I generalised a little. But last October when I was at the Lowell Observatory in Flagstaff, Arizona, it was the opinion of one staff member there that new, soon to be finished, larger ground-based telescopes with segmented mirrors and adaptive optics technology would rival Hubble, even after it is upgraded this year. Not being a professional astronomer, I had to take them at their word. Trouble is, there is no money to upgrade Hubble after this year and every modification and upgrade made to this amazing instrument -- when do you get diminishing returns? Hubble's mirror can't get any bigger, it's onboard processing power (486?!) can't get any bigger and newer space telescopes on the drawing board with bigger mirrors, brand-new technology instruments and cameras... When do you draw the line with throwing more money at Hubble? Every servicing mission costs billions. Eventually, it will be far more economic to pour these funds into a clean-sheet design.

Nonetheless, Astronomers I've talked to say Hubble will do very good science for the next 6-10 years. Nothing to sneeze at, it's life is far from over. But like the Space Shuttle, one day we have to let Hubble go...

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Offline A_M_Swallow

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MATTBLAK - 10/2/2008  11:15 AM
Nonetheless, Astronomers I've talked to say Hubble will do very good science for the next 6-10 years. Nothing to sneeze at, it's life is far from over. But like the Space Shuttle, one day we have to let Hubble go.

Orion on a J-232 could probably visit Hubble to service it in 10 years time.

An alternative is to use a Jupiter to lift son of Hubble into orbit.  A J-120 can lift 50 mT, or a J-232 can lift 100 metric tons, into LEO orbit.  The maximum weight of telescope is fixed by the required final orbit.

The DIRECT rockets support 10 metre fairings, permitting larger lenses.

Moving HST-2 out to the Sun-Earth L2 point from LEO has a delta-v of 50 m/s + 3430 = 3480 m/s
A 20 kW Hall Thruster has an ISP of 2750 s, thrust of 1.08 N and a 72% efficiency.

Using m1 = m0 * exp( - delta-v / (ISP * g0) ) = 50 * exp( -3480 / (2750 * 9.81) ) = 43.9 mT

So a J-120 would permit a 40 metric ton larger lensed replacement for the HST to be launched to SEL-2.

Getting the money to pay for the new telescope is a different problem.

Offline clongton

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RE: Could Direct allow Orion become more then a one trick pony?
« Reply #10 on: 02/10/2008 11:54 AM »
The limiting factor to the Jupiter-232 is the availability of the J-2X engine, not slated to be available until 2015. However, there is no reason, in the interim, why a Centaur upper stage cannot be used for missions that need a little extra boost. Call it a Jupiter-232C ('C' for 2-engine Centaur) or Jupiter-234C ('C' for a 4-engine Centaur). That is a development option we have done a fair amount of work on and HIGHLY recommend while we wait for the J-2X. The beauty of the Jupiter launch vehicle is that not being quite as large and inefficient as the Ares-V it can easily take full advantage of existing Centaur stages and capabilities. The potential missions that become possible with the use of Centaur and, when development is completed, the WBC (Wide Body Centaur) stagger the imagination. In short, while the more powerful J-2X is the heavy configuration aimed for, the Centaur capabilities are extremely well suited for all kinds of missions that go beyond LEO. And even after the J-2X is made available, that does not disqualify the Centaur from continued use for missions better suited to it than the J-2X. Centaur technology is quite stunning, well understood, very, very efficient and is and will remain available to the Jupiter launch vehicle family.

Go Centaur!
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Jim

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RE: Could Direct allow Orion become more then a one trick pony?
« Reply #11 on: 02/10/2008 01:50 PM »
Quote
Patchouli - 10/2/2008  12:24 AM

1.  how could this extra payload could be put to use on LEO Orion missions
I think the same setup be can used for launching station modules maybe canceled ISS segments or
parts for a new station.

2.  The non castrated block two Orion has lots of delta V about 1640M/sec this makes it a natural space tug.

3.  Lack of flexibility was one of the issues that doomed the Apollo spacecraft so maybe repeating this mistake should be avoided I'm not talking making it a do all like the shuttle but instead find a sensible middle ground between Apollo and the Shuttle in flexibility.

1.  No need for Orion LEO misssion, except for ISS.  Unmanned vehicles can do better

2.  A manned tug is not needed and the current vehicle has plenty of prop for any mission

3.  Apollo was very flexible.  The budget wasn't.  

As said on many threads, CEV is only for crew delivery/transport.  It isn't an end in itself nor does it require to be.  It is not a standalone vehicle.  What determines the mission, it what it is docked to:  ISS, LSAM, MTV, NEO mission module, etc   AND is it for an exploration mission, not routine LEO access.

The shuttle paradigm, or anything close to it, is not needed.  

Spacecraft delivery - not needed any more, ELV's rule

spacecraft servicing - most spacecraft are not in reach and replacement spacecraft would be cheaper.  HST would have been better off as a normal spacecraft at l2 with a fleet of replacements.

zero-g research (attached modules) - ISS and commercial spacecraft would be better


There is a thread on this already



Offline renclod

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RE: Could Direct allow Orion become more then a one trick pony?
« Reply #12 on: 02/10/2008 01:52 PM »
Quote
Patchouli - 10/2/2008  7:24 AM

Ok lets assume Ares I is dead and direct will replace it and that lame part on cargo and crew in the CAIB report is thrown out.

The name of this thread is inappropriate, lame, unfit for NasaSpaceFlight.

The matter of this thread was discussed in other threads. Nothing new, nothing entertaining, no substance above what we have in the Direct thread.

The CAIB report "part on cargo and crew" stands today and there is nothing "lame" about it to be "thrown out". Irrelevant for separate bodies manned spacecraft and cargo spacecraft.

This thread is a perfect target for NSF editors pressing the DELETE key.

Quote
The non castrated block two Orion has lots of delta V about 1640M/sec this makes it a natural space tug.
This is not a veterinary related web site. While some members are indulging... these members have proved theire value here. Greenhorns should be more prudent.

Lots of delta-V is irrelevant for a space tug. A solid rocket motor stage can provide more delta-V than that, and still it's not a natural for a LEO tug.


Offline Jim

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RE: Could Direct allow Orion become more then a one trick pony?
« Reply #13 on: 02/10/2008 02:01 PM »
Quote
Patchouli - 10/2/2008  12:24 AM

Ok lets assume Ares I is dead and direct will replace it and that lame part on cargo and crew in the CAIB report is thrown out.


It isn't lame and you can't assume it isn't

What would prevent a 10m capsule loaded with crew and cargo

Offline Jim

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RE: Could Direct allow Orion become more then a one trick pony?
« Reply #14 on: 02/10/2008 02:03 PM »
Quote
Patchouli - 10/2/2008  12:24 AM
I think the same setup be can used for launching station modules maybe canceled ISS segments or
parts for a new station..

canceled are canceled, they are gone.  nothing to bring back.   "New" parts? with what money.


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