Author Topic: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists  (Read 46656 times)

Offline sanman

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #40 on: 01/27/2016 01:15 pm »
Even if a human is driving a bulldozer, or operating a crane, that human will be sitting in the Mars Hab (or on Phobos). There will be a need for some virtual reality controlled robots, which can assemble a steel frame and tighten the screws. Humans would only be on the surface to where extreme dexterity is required. Even there, a tele-operated robot could come close to a space suited hand.

If a robot fails, another robot goes out and gets it, and brings it back to the hanger, where the human mechanic repairs it.

The required robots will probably be developed out of US DoD Exo-skeleton work, rather than advances in AI.

There's a nice short story by Mike Combs, envisioning tele-operated humanoid exo-skeletons doing all the work on the moon:
http://www.nss.org/settlement/MikeCombs/tnbttbt.htm



Coincidentally, a fresh article talks about this:


http://phys.org/news/2016-01-real-mars.html

« Last Edit: 01/27/2016 03:17 pm by sanman »

Offline sghill

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #41 on: 01/27/2016 03:22 pm »
Yeah, I was thinking about that - there's going to be a lot of robotics on Mars. It will be robots doing the bulk of the labor to perform ISRU, and even to build more infrastructure for the colony. Humans would be most useful in maintaining and repairing the robots from the safe indoors, and in troubleshooting them, or giving close supervision to them as they perform their tasks and operations. And of course maintaining the communications that connects to the robotics.

So you're going to need a lot of electromechanically-inclined technicians supporting robotics on Mars. Robots will be the backbone, and humans will support that backbone.

I'd even think that the hab structures should be designed around giving best ingress/egress access for the robots to be repaired and maintained by the humans. I'm imagining large garages with many bays to allow servicing of these mobile robotic platforms.

That's an interesting concept, but I don't think Robots are far enough along to the point of a human not being able to "out-explore" one by donning a suit and going out for the same EVA, and be relegated instead to maintenance duty on one.

Robots are great when a task is mind-numbingly repetitive or takes so long that human frailties get in the way.

Even if a human is driving a bulldozer, or operating a crane, that human will be sitting in the Mars Hab (or on Phobos). There will be a need for some virtual reality controlled robots, which can assemble a steel frame and tighten the screws. Humans would only be on the surface to where extreme dexterity is required. Even there, a tele-operated robot could come close to a space suited hand.

If a robot fails, another robot goes out and gets it, and brings it back to the hanger, where the human mechanic repairs it.

The required robots will probably be developed out of US DoD Exo-skeleton work, rather than advances in AI.

There's a nice short story by Mike Combs, envisioning tele-operated humanoid exo-skeletons doing all the work on the moon:
http://www.nss.org/settlement/MikeCombs/tnbttbt.htm

Robots directly controlled by humans are called "machines"  I don't think anyone is suggesting that mechanization won't be widespread with a human presence in space.  But the line between machine and robot does blur.
Bring the thunder!

Offline Hotblack Desiato

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #42 on: 01/27/2016 10:18 pm »
@alexterrell:

Why would any human need to go to the surface before the teleoperated robots have set up a decent base for usage?

Maybe it's better to have a rather large and useful space station in the martian orbit, teleoperating robots on the surface, and when the initial surface station is completed, and the ISRU-system have produced enough fuel, the first humans can safely land on mars.

The only disadvantage would be, that there might be no one around who is capable of repairing a malfunctioning robot, unless that can be by teleoperation too.

This would alter the initial required skillset to "operate a spacestation" and we know how to do that, and "steer robots with a certain time-delay - 50-250ms".

Offline sanman

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #43 on: 01/28/2016 01:10 am »
@alexterrell:

Why would any human need to go to the surface before the teleoperated robots have set up a decent base for usage?

Maybe it's better to have a rather large and useful space station in the martian orbit, teleoperating robots on the surface, and when the initial surface station is completed, and the ISRU-system have produced enough fuel, the first humans can safely land on mars.

The only disadvantage would be, that there might be no one around who is capable of repairing a malfunctioning robot, unless that can be by teleoperation too.

This would alter the initial required skillset to "operate a spacestation" and we know how to do that, and "steer robots with a certain time-delay - 50-250ms".

Some people say that the Martian moon Phobos would be a great base - just drill into it - that way you're protected from space radiation by being burrowed into the moon.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #44 on: 01/28/2016 07:35 am »
Some people say that the Martian moon Phobos would be a great base - just drill into it - that way you're protected from space radiation by being burrowed into the moon.

Phobos would solve the radiation problem during the stay. It would still have people in microgravity for a very long time. It would be an option if you don't have the means to land and return them. But if you have a system with the capabilities of MCT landing people on Mars is the better option by far, except for planetary protection blocking it. And in that case you cannot start a major project on the surface at all. Not even a Curiosity sized rover can be effectively sterile, much less hundreds of tons of equipment.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #45 on: 01/28/2016 07:45 am »
@alexterrell:

Why would any human need to go to the surface before the teleoperated robots have set up a decent base for usage?

Maybe it's better to have a rather large and useful space station in the martian orbit, teleoperating robots on the surface, and when the initial surface station is completed, and the ISRU-system have produced enough fuel, the first humans can safely land on mars.

The only disadvantage would be, that there might be no one around who is capable of repairing a malfunctioning robot, unless that can be by teleoperation too.

This would alter the initial required skillset to "operate a spacestation" and we know how to do that, and "steer robots with a certain time-delay - 50-250ms".

Some people say that the Martian moon Phobos would be a great base - just drill into it - that way you're protected from space radiation by being burrowed into the moon.

Drill? Most asteroids are rubble piles mixed with dirt*. Shovel some rocks into sandbags and you're done!

*Yes I know not technically dirt

Offline Hotblack Desiato

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #46 on: 01/28/2016 09:44 am »
Some people say that the Martian moon Phobos would be a great base - just drill into it - that way you're protected from space radiation by being burrowed into the moon.

Phobos would solve the radiation problem during the stay. It would still have people in microgravity for a very long time. It would be an option if you don't have the means to land and return them. But if you have a system with the capabilities of MCT landing people on Mars is the better option by far, except for planetary protection blocking it. And in that case you cannot start a major project on the surface at all. Not even a Curiosity sized rover can be effectively sterile, much less hundreds of tons of equipment.

A few days ago, I read an
article on "derstandard"
, about research done in the university valley in antarctica. This valley is virtuallly sterile, which is odd for the earth.

The original publication on nature: http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015239a.html

There might be a chance that mars is sterile after all (Which is not good from a scientific point of view, but makes colonisation much easier, since they don't need to focus on keeping mars biological pristine (which wouldn't be possible anyways).

This might also indicate, that biologists are just required for biological ECLSS and greenhouses, not for field research on mars.

Offline laszlo

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #47 on: 01/28/2016 11:00 am »
Great.  Gun slingers on Mars...

Shoot low, they're at 1/6th g.

In the meantime, there doesn't have to be an equal gender mix, rather an equal preferences mix. 98 asexuals with 2 homosexuals would keep everyone just as happy as 50 each heteros. Well, maybe not some of the taxpayers back on Earth, but that's a different issue. Actually, the "non-traditional" mix would also be a cheap interim solution to the population growth control issue. Drug-free, no mass to lift, no pre-flight surgery and no ethical issues about failed contraception. In fact, no chance of failure at all if all are the same gender. Probably a lot of resistance to this from heteros who'd be left out of the selection, so it probably won't work.

I can see the ad now - wanted, homosexuals who can hold their breaths for 10 years, never drink water and have a really high threshold of boredom and no fear of small enclosed spaces. Job involves travel to nearly airless, possibly sterile world. Duties upon arrival - still working that out.

 ;D

Offline alexterrell

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #48 on: 01/29/2016 05:29 pm »
@alexterrell:

Why would any human need to go to the surface before the teleoperated robots have set up a decent base for usage?

Maybe it's better to have a rather large and useful space station in the martian orbit, teleoperating robots on the surface, and when the initial surface station is completed, and the ISRU-system have produced enough fuel, the first humans can safely land on mars.

The only disadvantage would be, that there might be no one around who is capable of repairing a malfunctioning robot, unless that can be by teleoperation too.

This would alter the initial required skillset to "operate a spacestation" and we know how to do that, and "steer robots with a certain time-delay - 50-250ms".
The reason humans need to go to the surface of Mars will be to fix the robots that went down before hand to build the base.

My preferred scenario for Mars is:
1. Establish a base on Phobos including an inflatable, rotating hab, providing some gravity (about lunar gravity), covered in 10m of regolith.
2. Populate the base
3. Start ISRU on phobos, including production of rocket fuel
4. Start refuelling large vessels on Phobos to return to Earth, and bring back more crew to Phobos.
5. Send first robots down to Mars, set up small base, including atmospheric ISRU
6. Send first humans in reusable spacecraft between Phobos and Mars.

So basically, humans go to Mars only after they've been living on Phobos for about six years.

It might be desirable to have a relay satellite for full time teleoperation. Or just teleoperate them for a few hours, and then send them to the charging station whilst Phobos goes behind Mars.

Offline alexterrell

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #49 on: 01/29/2016 05:36 pm »
Another though on skills sets. Everyone will need several skills.

How do you convince Professor / Doctor Monster Ego, that his fourth job is "Hair Stylist", and his third job is "chief toilet un-blocker".

Probably a willingness to do dirty, menial and boring tasks is required.

(Do astronauts on ISS get hair cuts, or do they come back looking like they've been to the 1960s?)




Offline chalz

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #50 on: 01/30/2016 05:30 am »
(Do astronauts on ISS get hair cuts, or do they come back looking like they've been to the 1960s?)
They cut each others hair. Those with long hair probably wait until they get back. On Mars I'm sure you would find the person with the most aptitude would find it became their job.

Offline chalz

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #51 on: 01/30/2016 05:50 am »
The other mundane activity I thought about was laundry and clothing. Anyone who full fills requirements for other roles can be expected to repair their own clothes but making new ones is a big difference. It's possible it might be regulation uniform to prevent unnecessary contamination at least to start with. Although on ISS they seem to wear their own clothes at least within certain parameters. Perhaps a grab bag of new t shirts gets sent every two years for people to pick from.

Laundry is not really a skill but it would be a full time task after a certain size of station is reached.

At the opposite end no one mentioned Rocket Engineer, various life support technicians, radiation specialist? Someone to keep an eye on pathogens, bugs, infections, mice even? Maybe some sort of general 'outdoors goto guy' who knows about Martian seasons, wind, clouds, dust, local geography and what equipment works best in those conditions. Or maybe it will be mostly unchanging and only those who ever go out will need to know any of that. Or 20 years from now AI will be handling that and we just get an alert on our phones when something relevant occurs.

Offline laszlo

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #52 on: 01/30/2016 10:59 am »
Another though on skills sets. Everyone will need several skills.

How do you convince Professor / Doctor Monster Ego, that his fourth job is "Hair Stylist", and his third job is "chief toilet un-blocker".

Probably a willingness to do dirty, menial and boring tasks is required.

(Do astronauts on ISS get hair cuts, or do they come back looking like they've been to the 1960s?)

I remember Bob Overmyer talking about chasing monkey feces in zero-g on board STS-51-B, thinking that 7500 flight hours, 26 years as an astronaut and 2 shuttle flights, just to be chasing monkey s**t. But chase he did. I also remember reading in one cosmonaut's biography how cleaning the toilet was impartially rotated among the entire crew.

That's one advantage of a military background. I remember being on board the USS Fort Worth out in the Pacific and when "Sweepers man your brooms" was announced, everyone, including the skipper, grabbed a cleaning implement and got to work.

Offline ThereIWas3

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #53 on: 01/30/2016 01:07 pm »
How do you convince Professor / Doctor Monster Ego, that his fourth job is "Hair Stylist", and his third job is "chief toilet un-blocker".

Having a monster ego would be a disqualifying characteristic for going at all on the early trips, regardless of your other "skills".   Just like being 7 feet tall or clinically obese.

Offline RonM

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #54 on: 01/30/2016 03:22 pm »
How do you convince Professor / Doctor Monster Ego, that his fourth job is "Hair Stylist", and his third job is "chief toilet un-blocker".

Having a monster ego would be a disqualifying characteristic for going at all on the early trips, regardless of your other "skills".   Just like being 7 feet tall or clinically obese.

The early crews will have to pass psychological exams and work well together. By the time prima donnas and monster ego types are allowed to go to the colony, the colony will be large enough that they won't have to do multiple jobs. Still, they better learn to get along with others or there might be an increase in airlock accidents.

Speaking of that, law enforcement will be needed.

Offline nadreck

Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #55 on: 01/30/2016 06:06 pm »
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline Donosauro

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #56 on: 01/30/2016 09:02 pm »
There's a nice short story by Mike Combs, envisioning tele-operated humanoid exo-skeletons doing all the work on the moon:
http://www.nss.org/settlement/MikeCombs/tnbttbt.htm

Thanks for the link! Nice story!

Online MickQ

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #57 on: 01/31/2016 12:40 am »
Every frontier town needs a Sherrif.

Offline Arb

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #58 on: 01/31/2016 04:33 pm »
At McMurdo there's a deputised US Marshal: http://www.usmarshals.gov/history/antarctica/index.html

Offline RonM

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Re: Best Skillsets for Mars Colonists
« Reply #59 on: 01/31/2016 05:08 pm »
At McMurdo there's a deputised US Marshal: http://www.usmarshals.gov/history/antarctica/index.html

That reminds me of something.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082869/?ref_=nv_sr_3

Since the United States would be responsible under the OST for an American company such as SpaceX, someone there could be sworn in as a US Marshal.

As the colony gets larger, administrative functions might require full time bureaucrats. But by that time, software might have replaced many of those types of professions.

I think this gets us back to scientists, engineers, and technicians who can double up as admins, barbers, etc.

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