Author Topic: Pre-Rice Space Plans?  (Read 3221 times)

Offline truth is life

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 8
Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« on: 02/22/2011 06:40 pm »
I've seen some mention here and elsewhere about what NASA was planning prior to the famous Rice speech and the whole "to the Moon before 1970" plan Kennedy came up with. However, what I've seen is mostly rather vague about what exactly they wanted to do (usually just stating that there weren't any landings planned) and doesn't mention anywhere to go to look up more information. I was therefore wondering if anyone here knew of any decent sources (on-line or off) on what NASA envisioned they would do in the future prior to Kennedy setting that goal.

Offline Jorge

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6404
  • Liked: 529
  • Likes Given: 67
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #1 on: 02/22/2011 06:54 pm »
I've seen some mention here and elsewhere about what NASA was planning prior to the famous Rice speech and the whole "to the Moon before 1970" plan Kennedy came up with. However, what I've seen is mostly rather vague about what exactly they wanted to do (usually just stating that there weren't any landings planned) and doesn't mention anywhere to go to look up more information. I was therefore wondering if anyone here knew of any decent sources (on-line or off) on what NASA envisioned they would do in the future prior to Kennedy setting that goal.

Nit: Kennedy didn't set the Moon goal in the Rice speech (September 1962), he did it before a joint session of Congress in May 1961.
JRF

Offline truth is life

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #2 on: 02/22/2011 07:02 pm »
Nit: Kennedy didn't set the Moon goal in the Rice speech (September 1962), he did it before a joint session of Congress in May 1961.

True...well, the point is still the same. I'd like to know more about whatever NASA was planning before then.

Offline edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15391
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 8566
  • Likes Given: 1356
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #3 on: 02/22/2011 07:36 pm »
Nit: Kennedy didn't set the Moon goal in the Rice speech (September 1962), he did it before a joint session of Congress in May 1961.

True...well, the point is still the same. I'd like to know more about whatever NASA was planning before then.

Here's one glimpse at planning, circa 1959. 

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/report59.html

 - Ed Kyle

Offline truth is life

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #4 on: 02/22/2011 07:47 pm »
Here's one glimpse at planning, circa 1959. 

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/report59.html

 - Ed Kyle

Ah! Thank you very much. Now to go over it and compare to what actually happened...

EDIT: Interestingly, it was actually pretty accurate in what NASA did and when they did it. Early on, of course. It didn't really start significantly diverging from what actually happened until the mid-60s.
« Last Edit: 02/22/2011 07:57 pm by truth is life »

Offline edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15391
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 8566
  • Likes Given: 1356
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #5 on: 02/22/2011 07:57 pm »
Here's one glimpse at planning, circa 1959. 

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/report59.html

 - Ed Kyle

Ah! Thank you very much. Now to go over it and compare to what actually happened...

In terms of launch vehicle and spacecraft, my recollection is that the "two-stage Saturn" mentioned is what we know as "Saturn I".  There would have been a follow on Saturn, derived from Saturn I, for circumlunar and manned LEO space station flights with a spacecraft that looked dimly like Apollo.  Landing on the Moon, sometime after 1970, would have been done with a much bigger rocket named Nova, and the thinking at the time was that the lander (topped by a return spacecraft complete with heat shield) would have flown directly (no docking, no orbiting, etc.) to the lunar surface from Earth.  Others like von Braun contemplated a modified direct mode (eventually named Earth Orbit Rendezvous) that involved building up a spacecraft and propellant load in LEO via. multiple Saturn launches.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 02/22/2011 08:02 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15289
  • Liked: 7828
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #6 on: 02/22/2011 08:33 pm »
Go to Amazon and order John Logsdon's book "John F. Kennedy and the Race to the Moon."  That should answer your questions.

Offline truth is life

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 278
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #7 on: 02/22/2011 08:57 pm »
In terms of launch vehicle and spacecraft, my recollection is that the "two-stage Saturn" mentioned is what we know as "Saturn I".  There would have been a follow on Saturn, derived from Saturn I, for circumlunar and manned LEO space station flights with a spacecraft that looked dimly like Apollo.  Landing on the Moon, sometime after 1970, would have been done with a much bigger rocket named Nova, and the thinking at the time was that the lander (topped by a return spacecraft complete with heat shield) would have flown directly (no docking, no orbiting, etc.) to the lunar surface from Earth.  Others like von Braun contemplated a modified direct mode (eventually named Earth Orbit Rendezvous) that involved building up a spacecraft and propellant load in LEO via. multiple Saturn launches.

 - Ed Kyle

I figured the "two-stage Saturn" was Saturn I, too. Actually, I dug around a little more, and found this beauty of a report (from 1960) that goes into a lot more detail. Unfortunately, it's missing its figures, but note particularly the cost and time estimates on the lunar landing program at the end, this is probably the only time NASA (okay, not really; some kind of special advisory panel) estimated high! They figured around $34 billion for the whole program, with a landing around 1975, whereas it cost around $25 billion IRL for a landing in 1969, of course.

@Blackstar: Thanks, I put that on my wish list so I can remember to get it later.

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15289
  • Liked: 7828
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #8 on: 02/22/2011 09:19 pm »
The Logsdon book includes a discussion of the cost estimates for Apollo.

You can also hear an interview with him here:

http://www.thespaceshow.com/detail.asp?q=1509

Offline vericksen

  • Member
  • Posts: 6
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #9 on: 07/11/2011 02:16 am »
Regarding the Logsdon book...a must read for those interested in the origins of the U.S. Manned Space Program. I am in the first hundred pages...

A question however:

Would President Kennedy have made "The Speech" to Congress if these conditions (Gagarin's flight, Bay of Pigs, Shepard's flight...)did not exist and what combination of these were needed to push the President to make the decision to go to the moon?

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15289
  • Liked: 7828
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Pre-Rice Space Plans?
« Reply #10 on: 07/11/2011 12:37 pm »
Would President Kennedy have made "The Speech" to Congress if these conditions (Gagarin's flight, Bay of Pigs, Shepard's flight...)did not exist and what combination of these were needed to push the President to make the decision to go to the moon?

Almost certainly not.

You can actually see it in the documents from that period. After all, it was the Gagarin flight that caused Kennedy to write the memo asking "is there anything we can do?"

In fact, that is one of the conclusions of John's book--that the circumstances were unique and not repeatable.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1