Keep in mind that reused boosters are likely faster to orbit, because they're already at the launch site.So for say Inmarsat, they have additional consideration of waiting for a "fresh" one.
Quote from: Space Ghost 1962 on 05/16/2017 09:20 pmKeep in mind that reused boosters are likely faster to orbit, because they're already at the launch site.So for say Inmarsat, they have additional consideration of waiting for a "fresh" one.But doing what might be seen as penalising the customer could just lead them to go elsewhere for their launcher.
Quote from: Star One on 05/16/2017 10:04 pmQuote from: Space Ghost 1962 on 05/16/2017 09:20 pmKeep in mind that reused boosters are likely faster to orbit, because they're already at the launch site.So for say Inmarsat, they have additional consideration of waiting for a "fresh" one.But doing what might be seen as penalising the customer could just lead them to go elsewhere for their launcher.SpaceX is lining up to be a volume provider. Overly picky customers are welcome to go elsewhere where they will be coddled from 2X the price.SpaceX business model is volume and quick turnaround. Dealing with NASA and DOD may end being a short romance being that they are very picky customers even compared to Inmarsat. What SpaceX will tell NASA and DOD is you take it or leave it, we have other customers for those slots/dates just as well.It could very well change again from the FFP one at a time to contracts to blocks of launches per year of generic capability with options for adding specific engineering support for specified payloads once gov knows (about 6 months in advance) when and what they want launched. Same for NASA. A update to the NLS II contract methodology. Almost a pay up front and then use or loose launch capability. The launch costs then for DOD becomes a fixed cost every year even when number of launches vary. DOD would have multiple providers on such a contract allowing DOD to manage the launch resources just by juggling who launch what and when without haveing a long multi-month or even year long acquisition cycle for each launch. Just a 30 day contract mod specifying what and when to a specific providers existing launch contract. This is what the DOD wanted for the EELV contracts but could never quite get there. Currently there is still way too much customization for each launch to be able to write such a contract. The payloads have to become more general more commoditized.
Quote from: Star One on 05/16/2017 10:04 pmQuote from: Space Ghost 1962 on 05/16/2017 09:20 pmKeep in mind that reused boosters are likely faster to orbit, because they're already at the launch site.So for say Inmarsat, they have additional consideration of waiting for a "fresh" one.But doing what might be seen as penalising the customer could just lead them to go elsewhere for their launcher.SpaceX is lining up to be a volume provider. Overly picky customers are welcome to go elsewhere where they will be coddled from 2X the price.
SpaceX business model is volume and quick turnaround. Dealing with NASA and DOD may end being a short romance being that they are very picky customers even compared to Inmarsat. What SpaceX will tell NASA and DOD is you take it or leave it, we have other customers for those slots/dates just as well.
It could very well change again from the FFP one at a time to contracts to blocks of launches per year of generic capability with options for adding specific engineering support for specified payloads once gov knows (about 6 months in advance) when and what they want launched.
Same for NASA. A update to the NLS II contract methodology. Almost a pay up front and then use or loose launch capability. The launch costs then for DOD becomes a fixed cost every year even when number of launches vary.
DOD would have multiple providers on such a contract allowing DOD to manage the launch resources just by juggling who launch what and when without haveing a long multi-month or even year long acquisition cycle for each launch.
Just a 30 day contract mod specifying what and when to a specific providers existing launch contract. This is what the DOD wanted for the EELV contracts but could never quite get there.
Currently there is still way too much customization for each launch to be able to write such a contract. The payloads have to become more general more commoditized.
There's nothing down the line stopping someone like BO who aren't quite as beholden to their bottom line because of the way they are financed coming in and at least at first undercutting Space X with fresh first stages for the more discerning customer.
Quote from: Star One on 05/16/2017 10:26 pmSpaceX business model is volume and quick turnaround. Dealing with NASA and DOD may end being a short romance being that they are very picky customers even compared to Inmarsat. What SpaceX will tell NASA and DOD is you take it or leave it, we have other customers for those slots/dates just as well.Disagree. They won't do that. Instead they will say "sure, but that will cost x mln $ extra". In fact, it already happened many times.
Inmarsat CEO Rupert Pearce praises "absolutely exceptional performance from SpaceX" and announces that they will use a flight proven core in the future:https://www.universetoday.com/135614/will-launch-reuseable-rocket-exceptional-spacex-performance-inmarsat-ceo-tells-universe-today/Choice quote: "They hit the ball out of the park with this launch for us"
...the company CEO told Universe Today that Inmarsat was willing to conduct future launches with SpaceX – including on a “reusable rocket in the future!”“This has obviously been an absolutely exceptional performance from SpaceX, Inmarsat CEO Rupert Pearce told Universe Today in a post launch interview at the Kennedy Space Center on Monday, May 15.“They have now earned themselves an immensely loyal customer.”
“I’m sure we will be using a ‘reused rocket’, Pearce stated. “And we will be launching on a ‘reusable rocket’ in the future.”“We will be looking to support them in any way we can with their new innovation programs.”
Quote from: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/16/2017 12:06 amHere's a nice quote from Inmarsat's CEO, Rupert Pearce:QuoteMr Pearce said he was delighted to fly SpaceX for the first time, and looked forward to the occasion when an Inmarsat satellite would go up on one of the American provider's "second-hand" rockets."I'd like to see a longer track record of refurbished rockets being launched successfully without problems," the CEO told BBC News."At the moment, we don't put up satellites in sufficient numbers to be relatively sanguine about losing one. But I'm very encouraged by what I've seen in recent months, and once we feel that refurbished rockets are essentially the same as new rockets - we'll jump onboard and extend our relationship with SpaceX."http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39929168Glad you posted that as some people seem to think that every customer is just going to get onboard with reusability, when they just aren't at this stage. They can't afford to be so sanguine about it until its far, far more proven technology.
Here's a nice quote from Inmarsat's CEO, Rupert Pearce:QuoteMr Pearce said he was delighted to fly SpaceX for the first time, and looked forward to the occasion when an Inmarsat satellite would go up on one of the American provider's "second-hand" rockets."I'd like to see a longer track record of refurbished rockets being launched successfully without problems," the CEO told BBC News."At the moment, we don't put up satellites in sufficient numbers to be relatively sanguine about losing one. But I'm very encouraged by what I've seen in recent months, and once we feel that refurbished rockets are essentially the same as new rockets - we'll jump onboard and extend our relationship with SpaceX."http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39929168
Mr Pearce said he was delighted to fly SpaceX for the first time, and looked forward to the occasion when an Inmarsat satellite would go up on one of the American provider's "second-hand" rockets."I'd like to see a longer track record of refurbished rockets being launched successfully without problems," the CEO told BBC News."At the moment, we don't put up satellites in sufficient numbers to be relatively sanguine about losing one. But I'm very encouraged by what I've seen in recent months, and once we feel that refurbished rockets are essentially the same as new rockets - we'll jump onboard and extend our relationship with SpaceX."
Quote from: Johnnyhinbos on 05/16/2017 11:15 amBecause Pearce used this wording, "we'll jump on board and extend our relationship with SpaceX". That is not cautionary, that is enthusiastic wording. He's saying, in my opinion, that they are just waiting on a bit more due diligence - i.e., more data through reuse - and then they are ready to sign up.And it is near-term that he will have a longer track record... maybe 6 flights this year, something like 3/4ths of all flights in a year or two. Inmarsat already has one more sat on orbit than constellation design. They'll probably order again in -- wait for it -- a year or two.
Because Pearce used this wording, "we'll jump on board and extend our relationship with SpaceX". That is not cautionary, that is enthusiastic wording. He's saying, in my opinion, that they are just waiting on a bit more due diligence - i.e., more data through reuse - and then they are ready to sign up.
Wasn't this one of the customers that was discussed as leaving SpaceX due to FH delays? A feature: Reusability is being sold, even when flying expendable.
Wasn't this one of the customers that was discussed as leaving SpaceX due to FH delays?
Quote from: AncientU on 05/19/2017 10:04 amWasn't this one of the customers that was discussed as leaving SpaceX due to FH delays? Yes: Citing SpaceX delays, Inmarsat moves satellite launch from Falcon Heavy to Ariane 5
Yes, cheaper launches and satellites are opening up smaller markets.From SES April 28 earnings call;Quote<snip>But none of these factors is having a material effect on SES’s video business so far. McCarthy said pricing remains stable, with SES selling transponder capacity at an average rate of 1.7 million euros ($2 million) per year.<snip>
<snip>But none of these factors is having a material effect on SES’s video business so far. McCarthy said pricing remains stable, with SES selling transponder capacity at an average rate of 1.7 million euros ($2 million) per year.
Quote from: jpo234 on 05/20/2017 11:31 pmQuote from: gongora on 05/20/2017 07:39 pmWe need to recruit some Indonesian members to watch the local media for us...These seem to say there is a contract for SpaceX to launch Telkom 4 around June 2018 (although I can never be completely sure with Google Translate).https://inet.detik.com/telecommunication/d-3424084/spacex-masih-dipercaya-luncurkan-satelit-telkom-4http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170417152745-213-208098/telkom-bakal-lebih-hemat-berkat-roket-spacex/http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170130174006-213-190081/satelit-telkom-berikutnya-bakal-gandeng-spacex/Behold my Google foo:https://seasia.co/2017/05/01/indonesia-to-use-spacex-to-launch-next-satellitehttp://www.satellitetoday.com/telecom/2015/12/30/ssl-to-provide-next-satellite-for-telkom-indonesia/Nice find! So not only is this a new launch contract, but it will also be on a flight-proven booster.QuotePresident Director of Telkom, Alex J. Sinaga mentioned to CNN, “Investment in Telkom-4 [satellite] will be cheaper as we use a reusable orbital rocket from SpaceX, so it will be cheaper as much as 40 percent.”Edit: added relevant quote from seasia.co article.
Quote from: gongora on 05/20/2017 07:39 pmWe need to recruit some Indonesian members to watch the local media for us...These seem to say there is a contract for SpaceX to launch Telkom 4 around June 2018 (although I can never be completely sure with Google Translate).https://inet.detik.com/telecommunication/d-3424084/spacex-masih-dipercaya-luncurkan-satelit-telkom-4http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170417152745-213-208098/telkom-bakal-lebih-hemat-berkat-roket-spacex/http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170130174006-213-190081/satelit-telkom-berikutnya-bakal-gandeng-spacex/Behold my Google foo:https://seasia.co/2017/05/01/indonesia-to-use-spacex-to-launch-next-satellitehttp://www.satellitetoday.com/telecom/2015/12/30/ssl-to-provide-next-satellite-for-telkom-indonesia/
We need to recruit some Indonesian members to watch the local media for us...These seem to say there is a contract for SpaceX to launch Telkom 4 around June 2018 (although I can never be completely sure with Google Translate).https://inet.detik.com/telecommunication/d-3424084/spacex-masih-dipercaya-luncurkan-satelit-telkom-4http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170417152745-213-208098/telkom-bakal-lebih-hemat-berkat-roket-spacex/http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170130174006-213-190081/satelit-telkom-berikutnya-bakal-gandeng-spacex/
President Director of Telkom, Alex J. Sinaga mentioned to CNN, “Investment in Telkom-4 [satellite] will be cheaper as we use a reusable orbital rocket from SpaceX, so it will be cheaper as much as 40 percent.”
Cross posting with emphasis mine:Quote from: cppetrie on 05/20/2017 11:40 pmQuote from: jpo234 on 05/20/2017 11:31 pmQuote from: gongora on 05/20/2017 07:39 pmWe need to recruit some Indonesian members to watch the local media for us...These seem to say there is a contract for SpaceX to launch Telkom 4 around June 2018 (although I can never be completely sure with Google Translate).https://inet.detik.com/telecommunication/d-3424084/spacex-masih-dipercaya-luncurkan-satelit-telkom-4http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170417152745-213-208098/telkom-bakal-lebih-hemat-berkat-roket-spacex/http://www.cnnindonesia.com/teknologi/20170130174006-213-190081/satelit-telkom-berikutnya-bakal-gandeng-spacex/Behold my Google foo:https://seasia.co/2017/05/01/indonesia-to-use-spacex-to-launch-next-satellitehttp://www.satellitetoday.com/telecom/2015/12/30/ssl-to-provide-next-satellite-for-telkom-indonesia/Nice find! So not only is this a new launch contract, but it will also be on a flight-proven booster.QuotePresident Director of Telkom, Alex J. Sinaga mentioned to CNN, “Investment in Telkom-4 [satellite] will be cheaper as we use a reusable orbital rocket from SpaceX, so it will be cheaper as much as 40 percent.”Edit: added relevant quote from seasia.co article.
New study: Sensing satellite market banking on spacex – blue origin space rivalry to boost future demand
Headline sounds interesting, but article text doesn't support it. Seems to be unspoken, yet logical link...QuoteNew study: Sensing satellite market banking on spacex – blue origin space rivalry to boost future demandhttps://www.whatech.com/market-research/telecommunications/310359-sensing-satellite-market-banking-on-spacex-blue-origin-space-rivalry-to-boost-future-demand
This is what the DOD wanted for the EELV contracts but could never quite get there.
Quote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 05/16/2017 10:22 pm This is what the DOD wanted for the EELV contracts but could never quite get there.When does ERLV become an acronym?