Author Topic: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?  (Read 9362 times)

Offline Khadgars

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Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« on: 08/01/2013 01:44 am »
Just curious what people think are the chances that ATK restarts solid motor casing production.  Is it really too expensive to restart production?  Seems like the 5 Seg SRB is perfect for the SLS, all it really needs over Block I design is a more powerful US.

-Khadgars
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Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #1 on: 08/01/2013 01:51 am »
Don't need to. They have enough.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/01/the-dark-knights-atks-advanced-booster-revealed-for-sls/
"It is expected that the five segment solid motor will be used on all SLS flights until at least the middle of the 2020s, with source information (L2) noting SLS managers have the option to launch up to 10 missions using the current five segment booster design."

So no "restart" just new production for the advanced booster, if ATK win - which they probably will.
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Offline Khadgars

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #2 on: 08/01/2013 02:02 am »
Thanks for the info Chris!  But I was really referring to when the casings run out.  Instead of doing an advanced booster, why not continue producing 5 seg SRB's and just concentrate on the US.  A Block I with 4 RL-10 US is said to put 118mt to LEO correct? 

Edit: Though I suppose after 10 flights, by the time they run out they will be so old its not worth investing any more in?
« Last Edit: 08/01/2013 02:05 am by Khadgars »
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Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #3 on: 08/01/2013 02:17 am »
Thanks for the info Chris!  But I was really referring to when the casings run out.

That's what I'm here for ;)

They should be on to the composite casings for the advanced boosters well before SLS gets close to 10 flights, so they have absolutely no need to restart production.

Instead of doing an advanced booster, why not continue producing 5 seg SRB's and just concentrate on the US.

That's an entirely different thread.....which reminds me of an interview with a NASA guy who answered a Q&A in a friendly and jovial manner, before a question in the middle received a stern:

"NASA doesn't deal in hypotheticals!" :D

Point is, the plan - as it is - means the answer to your question is "they don't need to".

If someone changes the plan and does away with advanced boosters, and ATK win all those future flights, the question would be "will ATK persist with current casings, or move on to composite regardless". Because I'm thinking they might go with the latter, as it's a good cost and mass saving.

Anyhoo, that's how I see it. I'll probably wake up in the morning with some ATK guy saying "What's that Bergin mumbling about now?" :D
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Offline TomH

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #4 on: 08/01/2013 02:24 am »
No. They are going to advanced boosters and there will be a competition. Even if a a solid won, it would be the advanced solid which would have four segments with composite casings, each longer than the current casings. Even then, advanced liquids are superior to advanced solids on multiple levels. This has been discussed many times in other threads.

Offline sdsds

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #5 on: 08/01/2013 03:33 am »
I would echo everything said so far, except add a time factor. "It's not worth even considering the hypothetical, at least until the five segment boosters have been flight proven."

By the time that's happened, someone in a leadership position (like say a President) could conceivably advance a plan that involved launching SLS quite frequently, i.e. two per year. In that situation, given the need to fund those payloads, there might not be a need to fund advanced booster development.
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Offline AndrewSTS

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #6 on: 08/01/2013 04:08 am »
Has been discussed before, but thanks for reminding by about the Dark Knights article. That was a good read!

Offline Lobo

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #7 on: 08/01/2013 08:08 pm »
Over various conversations on L2 and on the public side, I get the impression that restarting production of the 5-seg booster casings once the existing stock run out is something ATK doesn't really want to do, and could be perhaps more expensive than new composite casings. 
It might be cheaper to just use the same propellant and pour into 4-seg composites to replace the 5-seg steel.

I don't have anything definitive for that, just sort of the impression I gleaned out of various conversations.

It sounds like the tooling that made the steel casings was dismantled/scrapped/destroyed or something a few years ago.  Part of what made them less desirable to stick with as special coatings and treatments on the insides so they could be used multiple times.  If the boosters would no longer be recovered...which they weren't to be under CxP or later SLS...then they didn't need that any more. 

However, that said, the 5-segment steel casings were the PoR plan for Ares V and I don't know that it was supposed to be upgraded to composite boosters in the near term.  So perhaps there's more at play than I understood.  Not sure why they'd scrap the steel casings tooling equipment if Ares 1 and 5 was the PoR until early 2010.  so not sure.
Maybe Ares 1 and 5 was to have brand new steel casing tooling to support it that made segments that were not reusable?  And since it was cancelled, ATK decided to go with composite casings instead of non-reusable steel?

But...I got the impression that ATK wants to go with composite casings for large segmented boosters going forward.  Maybe that's so they can make their own casings rather than outsoursing it (which I believe they did with the steel casings).  They make the GEM-60 SRB's for Delta IV and those are composite.  So maybe they'd rather try to evolve that tech to a larger scale for SLS Advanced boosters?  The composite boosters would use HTPB propellant whcih the GEM-60's use as well.

Lots of question and not a ton of hard answers surrounding all of this.
Maybe it's just that ATK wants to squeeze more money by not going back to the old tool? But that wouldn't make much sense if that would actually be cheaper if there's to be a booster competition.  I think ATK would want to propose what was the cheapest for them on their end to make their offering more attractive.

Another interesting note, the original Ares 5 from ESAS (aka LV 27.3.  LV27 was without the EDS) was to have 5-segment steel boosters, but they were to have the more energetic HTPB propellant rather than the PBAN that Titan and Shuttle 4-seg SRB's used..  But the new 5-seg steel boosters for SLS will use the PBAN rather than the HTPB.  So not sure what changed there.  Maybe the planned steel casings couldn't handle the HTPB pressure?

This could explain a little of SLS's Block 1 performance debate.  While it pretty much has to be more than the 70mt they are "officially" claming (because J-130 using a smaller core with 4-seg shuttle boosters using the same PBAN did that), it might not be as much as LV27 was predicted to do in ESAS, because the boosters won't have as good of performance as LV27's boosters were to have...despite both being 5-segments.  Maybe it's only going to be around 90mt instead of closer to 100mt which LV27 was to have?
« Last Edit: 08/01/2013 08:11 pm by Lobo »

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #8 on: 08/02/2013 02:50 am »
Has been discussed before, but thanks for reminding by about the Dark Knights article. That was a good read!

Thanks! :)
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #9 on: 08/07/2013 06:23 am »
Maybe Ares 1 and 5 was to have brand new steel casing tooling to support it that made segments that were not reusable?

I believe the boosters on Ares I and V were meant to be recovered, so no need to make new casings.
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Offline MP99

Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #10 on: 08/07/2013 07:40 am »
Maybe Ares 1 and 5 was to have brand new steel casing tooling to support it that made segments that were not reusable?

I believe the boosters on Ares I and V were meant to be recovered, so no need to make new casings.

Agreed.

Cheers, Martin

Offline Lobo

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #11 on: 08/07/2013 03:59 pm »
Maybe Ares 1 and 5 was to have brand new steel casing tooling to support it that made segments that were not reusable?

I believe the boosters on Ares I and V were meant to be recovered, so no need to make new casings.

Agreed.

Cheers, Martin

Well, I dunno then.  Like I said, there's a lot of questions and not a lot of answers.  If it was an economically viable option, I'd think ATK would be exploring it because unlike before, they will have competition here.  So I don't know that they can just say, "This is what we'll provide you...deal with it". 

I would very much like to know a definitive explaination from ATK as to why they don't seem to be considering an option to restart steel segment production.
Is the steel segment tooling no longer available?
Will composite casings just be cheaper than going back to steel casings?
Perhaps the steel casings can't handle the pressures of the HTPB propellant?  But still, they could do an option for more than the 10 existing sets of booster casings with PBAN if NASA desired. 
Maybe NASA's just not inquiring about any more steel boosters after a potential buy if the existing 10 pairs of them?  So ATK's not releasing any information about it?

dunno...


Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #12 on: 08/07/2013 05:47 pm »
Maybe Ares 1 and 5 was to have brand new steel casing tooling to support it that made segments that were not reusable?

I believe the boosters on Ares I and V were meant to be recovered, so no need to make new casings.

Agreed.

Cheers, Martin

Well, I dunno then.  Like I said, there's a lot of questions and not a lot of answers.  If it was an economically viable option, I'd think ATK would be exploring it because unlike before, they will have competition here.  So I don't know that they can just say, "This is what we'll provide you...deal with it". 

I would very much like to know a definitive explaination from ATK as to why they don't seem to be considering an option to restart steel segment production.
Is the steel segment tooling no longer available?
Will composite casings just be cheaper than going back to steel casings?
Perhaps the steel casings can't handle the pressures of the HTPB propellant?  But still, they could do an option for more than the 10 existing sets of booster casings with PBAN if NASA desired. 
Maybe NASA's just not inquiring about any more steel boosters after a potential buy if the existing 10 pairs of them?  So ATK's not releasing any information about it?

dunno...


If it is true that the advanced boosters will be cheaper and have better performance then best to replace the 5 segs with them.

However this should be done at a later date to decide on. Give commercial a reasonable time to show that they will have a better option than the SLS for heavy and wide payloads. They would need to show they can by the end of 2018 or NASA would need to order the advanced boosters and RS-25E by then for launches sometime after 2022.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #13 on: 08/15/2013 12:54 am »
Maybe Ares 1 and 5 was to have brand new steel casing tooling to support it that made segments that were not reusable?

I believe the boosters on Ares I and V were meant to be recovered, so no need to make new casings.

Agreed.

Cheers, Martin

Well, I dunno then.  Like I said, there's a lot of questions and not a lot of answers.  If it was an economically viable option, I'd think ATK would be exploring it because unlike before, they will have competition here.  So I don't know that they can just say, "This is what we'll provide you...deal with it". 

I would very much like to know a definitive explaination from ATK as to why they don't seem to be considering an option to restart steel segment production.
Is the steel segment tooling no longer available?
Will composite casings just be cheaper than going back to steel casings?
Perhaps the steel casings can't handle the pressures of the HTPB propellant?  But still, they could do an option for more than the 10 existing sets of booster casings with PBAN if NASA desired. 
Maybe NASA's just not inquiring about any more steel boosters after a potential buy if the existing 10 pairs of them?  So ATK's not releasing any information about it?

dunno...



Lobo, re your question about steel vs. composite cases: I would think weight is a major issue, especially if ATK might be competing with a liquid booster down the road, no? With solids at an Isp disadvantage, they are looking at "advanced" propellant formulations to try to scratch out a few more seconds. So a reduction in case mass could also improve their overall performance vis-a-vis a liquid booster.

Offline Lobo

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #14 on: 08/16/2013 05:45 pm »

Lobo, re your question about steel vs. composite cases: I would think weight is a major issue, especially if ATK might be competing with a liquid booster down the road, no? With solids at an Isp disadvantage, they are looking at "advanced" propellant formulations to try to scratch out a few more seconds. So a reduction in case mass could also improve their overall performance vis-a-vis a liquid booster.

Kabloona,
That's not the issue.  Yea, for advanced boosters in a competition I'm sure ATK needs to go with lighter casings and more energetic propellants to compete with liquid boosters.
However, the issue isn't the Advanced booster competition, it's if NASA may want to opt to delay (perhaps indefinately) the Advanced booster competition once a Block 1B with DUUS is flying, if it's able to loft 118mt to LEO and 43mt BLEO (per a Boeing paper).  Would NASA be better off to save the advanced booster competition monday and put those funds towards payloads like a new lunar lander or deep space habitat?
Supposedly, ATK has 10 pairs of the 5-seg steel casings, which would last several years unless there's a significant increase in flight rate.
If ATK could easily restart 5-seg steel casing production, NASA could perhaps invest only a small sum into that, and then not have to change their pad infrastructure at all until sometime down the road when they might really need more perfomance out of SLS.  WHich it really doesn't need until there's over 118mt payloads for it. (And there's not even 118mt payloads anywhere in the near future)

However, I've heard a few things that would indicate that perhaps it might be hard/expensive for them to do that, if they don't have the steel casing tooling any more.  In which case, it could perahps cost more to try to restart that than to go another way.

An option that I've been noodling around is that perhaps NASA could change the Advanced booster competition.  Basically push it off indefinately.  Instead decide to stick with existing SRB's.  But if making more steel SRB's past the 10 pairs is too expensive, there could be an argument than switching to a composte SRB could be a "replacement" SRB, that just used ATK's current casing production capabilities.  Assuming of course the composite boosters would basically be "drop in" replacements.  They should be from weight and handling perspective, and pad operations.  They might have too much more thrust and need modification of booster interfaces though...and if so, that might not be a possibility.  But if not that could be a bit of an end-around the booster competition, it would continue the SRB's with potentially very little change in the logistics and pad operations.  They'd sell by saying they just want to stick with SRB's.  But it's cheaper to go with composite case SRB's rather than re-create the tooling to continue steel case SRB's.  Not even call it "advanced boosters".  Just Composite case boosters as a direct replacement for steel case boosters.
If it doesn't give Block 1B enough of a performance booster to meet the 130mt mandate, no problem, as this won't be the Block 2 SLS, just a "Block 1B-v2.0".  Block 2 will be after an advanced booster competition...that will be pushed out for decades....

Anyway, just a thought I had.  Myself, I'd like to see SLS go with liquid boosters and get rid of the SRB's entirely.  But I'd also like to see them not spend too much money on new boosters after they already paid for the 5-segs, so they can maybe afford some payloads and launches!

:-)




Offline Kabloona

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Re: Will ATK Restart Solid Motor Casing Production?
« Reply #15 on: 08/16/2013 07:38 pm »
OK, thanks for the insights.

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