Author Topic: ITAR Reform in the Senate  (Read 29669 times)

Offline Proponent

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #60 on: 12/08/2012 03:04 am »
Well they do control their media, censor dissident views, censor events that cast the Chinese government in a negative light (search "Tiananmen Square Massacre" or "tank man" on Baidu.com) and imprison their citizens that speak out against their government. China also has a long record of not respecting intellectual property rights, this is one famous example.

There are unquestionably many very bad things about China, and there are good reasons that the United States should be concerned about it. 

These facts in no way mean, however, that all charges against China by American politicians are true.  American politicians hurt rather than help America when they promote some of the hysterical falsehoods that the Cox Report appears to contain.  The current ITAR law is an example of American politicians using such hysteria to pass laws that hurt America.

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #61 on: 12/08/2012 05:39 am »
<snip>

Chinese fear-mongering has been a useful political tool for some time.

I can count over 40 offices on the house side alone who will not support this if it does not contain specific language of technology transfer to China and state sponsors of terrorism.

People can have every right to express their opinions on this and frankly we need more dialogue.  Just realize, we are like on our own goal line.  We need to get to the 10 for a new set of downs.  You simply cannot expect the "Hail Mary" pass on this.

Frankly, there Republicans and Democrats who agree on these provisions.

People keep on wanting to make this a partisan fight.  It is not, and those who think it is, don't understand the maneuvering inside DC.  You had a Republican House pass it and Democrat Senate allow it to go to conference.

Finally, I really do not want our technology being transferred to China and state sponsors of terrorism.  That is just a bad idea in my opinion.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

Online yg1968

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #62 on: 12/10/2012 05:48 pm »
Here is an update on the passage of the National Defense Authorization Act by the Senate:
http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/news/fy2013-ndaa-passes-senate-without-inksna-liability-orion-sls-or-export-control-reform

Offline jongoff

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #63 on: 12/19/2012 12:53 am »
Jeff Foust had some relevant tweets that I hadn't seen reposted here yet:

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/281157070613528576

Good news for the satellite industry: the final version of NDAA includes export control reform language: http://1.usa.gov/Twbk2U

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/281157290042740736

The provision "essentially restores the authority of the President to move satellites and related items" from the USML to the CCL.

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Is this a Merry Christmas to us sort of moment?

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Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #64 on: 12/19/2012 01:37 am »
It is not law yet - but its looking good.

All the work is paying off.  Kudos to everyone in the Senate on the Left and Right who came together.  Specifically:

Senator Bennet (D-CO)
Senator Rubio (R-FL)
Senator Warner (D-VA)
Senator Udall (D-NM)
and Senator Carl Levin (D-MI), Chairman of the Senate Committee on Armed Services

There was also a lot of bi-partisan efforts behind the scenes that cannot be talked about. 

Lets all breathe and make sure the conference bill says what we think it says.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

Offline jongoff

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #65 on: 12/19/2012 01:53 am »
Lets all breathe and make sure the conference bill says what we think it says.

Yeah, that's part of why I posted it here. Figured that there were enough people here watching this process closer than I'm able to who might have more details.

~Jon

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #66 on: 12/19/2012 03:00 am »
So I'm reading up the proposed ITAR reform bill, and I find this hilarious bit within it:

Quote
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON TRANSFERS TO THE PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

No satellite or related item ... may be transferred ... to the Government of the People’s Republic of China ...

So what would the AMS-2 currently operating on ISS be?

Link

Quote
BEIJING, May 16 (Xinhua) -- Despite several delays, the AMS-02 particle detector took off from the Florida coast of the United States ...

My bold.

Is this a trick question?

AMS would be a transfer of a satellite related item from the PRC to the USA?

Which is not the same thing as a transfer from the USA to the PRC?

Or is there some commutative property that I'm not aware of?  I mean, commutative sounds like communist, right?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #67 on: 12/19/2012 02:59 pm »
The number one plank in the much maligned TEA Party in Space Platform:

Plank – Congress must reform International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), easing restrictions on U.S. private enterprise from engaging in commerce with friendly countries in the sale of goods and services. Specifically, and among other things, satellites should be removed from the munitions list.

http://teapartyinspace.org/content/platform

On the way to you Mr. President.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

Online yg1968

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #68 on: 12/19/2012 05:26 pm »
See the following updates on the Conference bill:
http://democrats.armedservices.house.gov/index.cfm/press-releases?ContentRecord_id=5b9c3482-2954-48b5-ad2b-22e080706af9
http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/news/house-and-senate-agree-on-fy2013-defense-authorization-bill-update-2
http://www.spacepolitics.com/2012/12/18/a-long-awaited-big-win-for-export-control-reform/

Quote
Export Control Reform:

Reforms satellite export control by repealing Section 1513(a) of the Strom Thurmond NDAA for FY99, which essentially restores the authority of the President to move satellites and related items from the United States Munitions List to the Commerce Control List.  The provisions would prohibit the export, re-export of such items to certain countries and provides for interagency reviews and reporting requirements in order to ensure accountability with respect to the export of satellites and related items. The provisions would maintain the existing security and monitoring provisions of the Strom Thurmond Act.
« Last Edit: 12/19/2012 05:29 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #69 on: 12/21/2012 04:01 pm »
This is a really good article citing two industry champions of ITAR reform.

Quote from: Reuters
(Mike) Gold tells a story about how the one-size-fits-all export regulations required Bigelow Aerospace to post guards and pay for government observers to keep tabs on a metal stand for its prototype space habitat sent to Russia for launch in 2007.

"The stand was simply intended to prevent our spacecraft from sitting on the ground," he said. "If you turned it upside-down, put a tablecloth on it and some nice cutlery, it's indistinguishable from a metal coffee table."

"Due to the overbreadth of the regulations, we had to have two guards watching this coffee table on a 24/7 basis in Russia and then pay two government monitors to watch our guards watching the coffee table," Gold said.

"I can only imagine the national security repercussions of this table technology leaking out from the Russians to the Iranians, where they can learn to serve coffee, or in a worst-case scenario, even tea," he quipped.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/19/space-exports-idUSL1E8NJE8U20121219

This is the kind of common sense reform we fought for so hard.  We will continue to fight for these kind of reforms in the future... 2013 is right around the corner.  Unless the world implodes in the next 12 hours.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

Offline john smith 19

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #70 on: 12/24/2012 02:40 pm »
This is the kind of common sense reform we fought for so hard.  We will continue to fight for these kind of reforms in the future... 2013 is right around the corner.  Unless the world implodes in the next 12 hours.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space
It looks a great improvement on the current situation. A more level playing field for US suppliers to offer their wares to foreign customers. I presume this will also loosen the situation of foreign nationals at US universities working on space degrees that work on space instruments being able to work on them without hindrance and get jobs with US companies after they graduate.

But I'm not counting this one in till that final vote. People seem confident that it's a formality but this situation has persisted for 13 years already.

When is the final vote due on this?
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #71 on: 12/24/2012 02:55 pm »
This is the kind of common sense reform we fought for so hard.  We will continue to fight for these kind of reforms in the future... 2013 is right around the corner.  Unless the world implodes in the next 12 hours.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space
It looks a great improvement on the current situation. A more level playing field for US suppliers to offer their wares to foreign customers.

1.  I presume this will also loosen the situation of foreign nationals at US universities working on space degrees that work on space instruments being able to work on them without hindrance and get jobs with US companies after they graduate.

But I'm not counting this one in till that final vote. People seem confident that it's a formality but this situation has persisted for 13 years already.

2.  When is the final vote due on this?

1.  It will not.  The legislation specifically deals with commercial communication satellites.  We will have to work to further reform ITAR for areas such as suborbital vehicles and universities. 

Its an incremental approach and we believe it is the correct approach.

2.  Waiting on the President to sign.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

Offline john smith 19

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #72 on: 12/24/2012 07:57 pm »

1.  It will not.  The legislation specifically deals with commercial communication satellites.  We will have to work to further reform ITAR for areas such as suborbital vehicles and universities. 

Its an incremental approach and we believe it is the correct approach.
Too bad. But there is always next year. OTOH the TPIS has established lines of communications into the Legislature, gained their trust and helped establish consensus on both the need for change and what that change should be. As a political outsider these seem like major achievements to me, even more so as I'm guessing the full time staff at TPIS is fairly small.   
Quote
2.  Waiting on the President to sign.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space
Is it literally just a signature or is there some kind of ceremony attached? This sounds like it could be done by the end of the week.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #73 on: 12/24/2012 10:59 pm »
John,

I would argue that we achieved as much as was politically possible this year with the ITAR reform we are getting.  People simply do not realize how much work it was bring up to speed the staffs, the members, and those who need to agree to reform ITAR.

The work is long and tedious.  A lot of visits to both chambers as well as thousands of emails. Thousands. 

We have a small staff - four.  We are all volunteers who donate time.  It does help that I am retired and have an income.

ITAR reform now needs to evolve.  Personally, I am thinking suborbital vehicles and the cubesat community.  It is still too early to tell where we will go in 2013 - we are still trying to enjoy this win.

Thank you.  It was a big deal for us as an organization.  We simply just don't go out and make noise, we are the signal that permeates Capitol Hill.  People may not like us, and that is ok; however we now have a track record and a history.  When we move on an issue, people know that our work is valid and well sourced.

Its all you can hope for when you do not have millions of dollars to lobby.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

Offline john smith 19

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #74 on: 12/25/2012 07:30 am »
I would argue that we achieved as much as was politically possible this year with the ITAR reform we are getting.  People simply do not realize how much work it was bring up to speed the staffs, the members, and those who need to agree to reform ITAR.
It's my impression that if you want to campaign on an issue you'd better be OK with repeating yourself a lot:)

Quote
We have a small staff - four.  We are all volunteers who donate time.  It does help that I am retired and have an income.
Which makes the teams achievements phenomenal.

Quote
ITAR reform now needs to evolve.  Personally, I am thinking suborbital vehicles and the cubesat community.  It is still too early to tell where we will go in 2013 - we are still trying to enjoy this win.
These both seem important areas for future work. I'm sure both Xcorp and Virgin Galactic would love to expand but ITAR places severe constraints on their operations (and I'm sure there are others). Likewise the cubesat market brings in the issues of foreign students who might like to stay in the US and help form the basis of the next generation of US aerospace engineers, whose average age (IIRC) has been creeping up.

It's a great start and I hope you are able to keep up the momentum now that you have established access. I can see that it may be difficult to keep this on the agenda in 2013, given the Legislatures heavy preoccupation with the fiscal situation.
Quote
People may not like us, and that is ok;
I was once told that Economics is the science of satisfying infinite demands with finite resources. It's difficult to say "no, if you want this, you cannot have that," or that the stated goals simply will not be met by the budget they want to allocate. It takes courage (and solid research) to do so.
Quote
however we now have a track record and a history.  When we move on an issue, people know that our work is valid and well sourced.
The laying of these foundations may be the most vital part of the TPIS's early development. I hope you can build on them in the coming year.

I'd not planned to post on Christmas Day but I'll wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a hopeful new year.

MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline woods170

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #75 on: 06/18/2013 09:22 am »
ITAR reform has not just taken items off the list, but has added them as well, as Thales Alenia Space just found out:

http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35820with-chinese-option-blocked-european-built-satellite-to-fly-atop-falcon-9#.UcAjpJFrOHM

Quote
With Chinese Option Blocked, European-built Satellite To Fly Atop Falcon 9

Franco-Italian satellite builder Thales Alenia Space has selected a Space Exploration Technologies Corp. (SpaceX) Falcon 9 rocket to launch Turkmenistan’s first telecommunications satellite after being blocked by U.S. export rules from shipping the satellite to China for launch, European officials said.

The decision, which was expected, signals at least the temporary end of what has become known as Thales Alenia Space’s “ITAR-free” communications satellite design, which has been used in the past decade to launch about a half-dozen Thales-built satellites and satellite electronics payloads aboard Chinese Long March rockets. This hardware was touted as devoid of U.S. components and thus beyond the reach of U.S. export policy, which bars the shipment of U.S. space technology to China.

In recent months, even as it has moved to make the International Trade in Arms Regulations (ITAR) and the U.S. Munitions List less restrictive for satellite components, the U.S. State Department has added to the list certain satellite components previously not covered.

<snip>

Industry officials have said the State Department’s concerns with the ITAR-free satellite — the department has been conducting an investigation of the satellite’s component lineup since 2008 through what is called a Blue Lantern inquiry — made it likely that, sooner or later, even the most banal U.S. satellite components could be barred from shipment to China.

The proposed changes to ITAR and the U.S. Munitions List do not change any of these restrictions as they apply to China.

These industry officials said the U.S. position has evolved from one seeking to assure that sensitive U.S. technologies are not exported to China to one that is focused on preventing Western satellite owners and makers from using the Long March rocket.

Emphasis mine.
That was to be expected. Gross misuse of ITAR to protect US industrial interests.

Offline baldusi

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #76 on: 06/18/2013 05:10 pm »
I think that this will eventually hurt the US more than it helps. Now there's a good incentive to develop those few Us built parts on foreign countries. It will block the Long March for a few years, but force the development of component competition in the rest of the world. The more they block the Chinese, the more they have to develop in house. The more experience and industrial base that they actually develop. Extremely shortsighted.

Offline woods170

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Re: ITAR Reform in the Senate
« Reply #77 on: 06/19/2013 06:27 am »
I think that this will eventually hurt the US more than it helps. Now there's a good incentive to develop those few Us built parts on foreign countries. It will block the Long March for a few years, but force the development of component competition in the rest of the world. The more they block the Chinese, the more they have to develop in house. The more experience and industrial base that they actually develop. Extremely shortsighted.

Agreed, shortsighted it is.
Because it will lead to non-US industries becoming ever more mature, by being forced to develop just about every little component themselves. Once that is done, the natural tendency to wanting to sell will lead the non-US industries to flourish. This will, on the long term, cost the US industry much.

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