Quote from: woods170 on 12/12/2017 07:20 amQuote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 12:48 pmQuote from: woods170 on 12/11/2017 12:06 pmQuote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 10:14 amConstellation or no Constellation: I believe it was very wrong to redirect America away from the Moon after Obama made his - essentially - 'been there; done that' statements. It's one of the few things I wont forgive him for. But since I'm not an American voter; I'm fully aware that my annoyance for that is impotent It is what it is. People like me are 'Space Cadets'. Even if intended to be pejorative - I'd still wear that label with pride...Wrong. The guy you have to blame is named Nixon, not Obama. Nixon is the one that steered the USA away from the Moon, all the way back to LEO. And once the USA was stuck there, courtesy of the space shuttle and the space station sucking the NASA budget dry, there was no real chance of going back into deep space.Most of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.You do realize that changing course is what Democrats and Republicans do when they take over from each other?- Bush sr.: Moon first, Mars later- Clinton: Forget the Moon. Mars eventually.- Bush jr.: Moon first, Mars later- Obama: Forget the Moon. Asteroids, and Mars eventually- Trump: Moon first, Mars laterIs see a pattern here.Once Trump is replaced by a Democrat president the focus will shift, once again. Simply because space policy is not set along "what is good for the country" but along "what is good for the party-in-charge".Obviously, the two need not be mutually exclusive. I would think - at least I interpret it thus - that what is 'best' for a country's space program is to be progressive over time; building on the achievements of the past; even if it has to have a new Administrations' 'spin' on what progress is. My opinion - for what it's worth as a non-U.S. citizen and taxpayer - is that the Moon should not have been abandoned during the Obama era. We've had nigh on a decade of a great deal of money spent, but arguably little progress and nowhere went to
Quote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 12:48 pmQuote from: woods170 on 12/11/2017 12:06 pmQuote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 10:14 amConstellation or no Constellation: I believe it was very wrong to redirect America away from the Moon after Obama made his - essentially - 'been there; done that' statements. It's one of the few things I wont forgive him for. But since I'm not an American voter; I'm fully aware that my annoyance for that is impotent It is what it is. People like me are 'Space Cadets'. Even if intended to be pejorative - I'd still wear that label with pride...Wrong. The guy you have to blame is named Nixon, not Obama. Nixon is the one that steered the USA away from the Moon, all the way back to LEO. And once the USA was stuck there, courtesy of the space shuttle and the space station sucking the NASA budget dry, there was no real chance of going back into deep space.Most of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.You do realize that changing course is what Democrats and Republicans do when they take over from each other?- Bush sr.: Moon first, Mars later- Clinton: Forget the Moon. Mars eventually.- Bush jr.: Moon first, Mars later- Obama: Forget the Moon. Asteroids, and Mars eventually- Trump: Moon first, Mars laterIs see a pattern here.Once Trump is replaced by a Democrat president the focus will shift, once again. Simply because space policy is not set along "what is good for the country" but along "what is good for the party-in-charge".
Quote from: woods170 on 12/11/2017 12:06 pmQuote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 10:14 amConstellation or no Constellation: I believe it was very wrong to redirect America away from the Moon after Obama made his - essentially - 'been there; done that' statements. It's one of the few things I wont forgive him for. But since I'm not an American voter; I'm fully aware that my annoyance for that is impotent It is what it is. People like me are 'Space Cadets'. Even if intended to be pejorative - I'd still wear that label with pride...Wrong. The guy you have to blame is named Nixon, not Obama. Nixon is the one that steered the USA away from the Moon, all the way back to LEO. And once the USA was stuck there, courtesy of the space shuttle and the space station sucking the NASA budget dry, there was no real chance of going back into deep space.Most of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.
Quote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 10:14 amConstellation or no Constellation: I believe it was very wrong to redirect America away from the Moon after Obama made his - essentially - 'been there; done that' statements. It's one of the few things I wont forgive him for. But since I'm not an American voter; I'm fully aware that my annoyance for that is impotent It is what it is. People like me are 'Space Cadets'. Even if intended to be pejorative - I'd still wear that label with pride...Wrong. The guy you have to blame is named Nixon, not Obama. Nixon is the one that steered the USA away from the Moon, all the way back to LEO. And once the USA was stuck there, courtesy of the space shuttle and the space station sucking the NASA budget dry, there was no real chance of going back into deep space.
Constellation or no Constellation: I believe it was very wrong to redirect America away from the Moon after Obama made his - essentially - 'been there; done that' statements. It's one of the few things I wont forgive him for. But since I'm not an American voter; I'm fully aware that my annoyance for that is impotent It is what it is. People like me are 'Space Cadets'. Even if intended to be pejorative - I'd still wear that label with pride...
There are "space missions" and then there's "space stunts"... I'm speaking of the latter...
Budgets are policy.
Obviously, the two need not be mutually exclusive. I would think - at least I interpret it thus - that what is 'best' for a country's space program is to be progressive over time
With all due respect; Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, GW Bush and Obama didn't have 'Kennedy Moments' and I doubt anyone else will, either. The Trump Administration is having 'speed wobbles' over a number of things. If a partisan Congress and Senate don't get behind this initiative then we may have another 'Constellation' on our hands. But I would be delighted to be wrong.
If Jim Bridenstine is even half the man James Webb was - then NASA and the U.S. space program should prosper.
Quote from: woods170 on 12/12/2017 07:20 amQuote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 12:48 pmMost of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.You do realize that changing course is what Democrats and Republicans do when they take over from each other?- Bush sr.: Moon first, Mars later- Clinton: Forget the Moon. Mars eventually.- Bush jr.: Moon first, Mars later- Obama: Forget the Moon. Asteroids, and Mars eventually- Trump: Moon first, Mars laterIs see a pattern here.Once Trump is replaced by a Democrat president the focus will shift, once again. Simply because space policy is not set along "what is good for the country" but along "what is good for the party-in-charge".Obviously, the two need not be mutually exclusive. I would think - at least I interpret it thus - that what is 'best' for a country's space program is to be progressive over time; building on the achievements of the past; even if it has to have a new Administrations' 'spin' on what progress is. My opinion - for what it's worth as a non-U.S. citizen and taxpayer - is that the Moon should not have been abandoned during the Obama era. We've had nigh on a decade of a great deal of money spent, but arguably little progress and nowhere went to
Quote from: MATTBLAK on 12/11/2017 12:48 pmMost of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.You do realize that changing course is what Democrats and Republicans do when they take over from each other?- Bush sr.: Moon first, Mars later- Clinton: Forget the Moon. Mars eventually.- Bush jr.: Moon first, Mars later- Obama: Forget the Moon. Asteroids, and Mars eventually- Trump: Moon first, Mars laterIs see a pattern here.Once Trump is replaced by a Democrat president the focus will shift, once again. Simply because space policy is not set along "what is good for the country" but along "what is good for the party-in-charge".
Most of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.
The question is: what will NASA do differently in 2018, based on this directive?
It was directed to the Moon in the first place - I remember all the talk, lectures, videos and Powerpoints. But I also remember, as you just pointed out, that there was no serious funding allocated to a Lander. Virtually none at all other than notional studies. The Ares design choices 'ate NASA's lunch' and sucked up billions. I remember the folk advocating modified EELVs (my preference) Side Mount Shuttle Derived (my second choice) and of course; the Direct launcher. Direct was a pragmatic compromise that might have saved billions - and the first options I mentioned, billions more. I believe the slow and expensive Ares path was what helped kill Constellation. Blame all the personalities involved, if we must - but I wont take time to list them here.