Author Topic: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel  (Read 16003 times)

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #40 on: 12/04/2013 01:28 am »
]You should do research before making such assertions.
http://www.iridium.com/about/IridiumNEXT/Technology.aspx
You can already get 132kbps connections using the current, already-existing Iridium constellation. The next-gen network will be capable of 64mbps connections.

You are correct, I am way behind the times on this stuff.

Iridium figured out a way to gang together a bunch of 2.4 kbps channels that no one was using to enable a quasi-broadband system, basically using all of the capacity of a comsat flying over the ocean for one connection (this is only offered for maritime users, since the ocean is not really filled with many standard Iridium users).

The IridiumNEXT broadband is new to me. This uses the Proteus II bus, so there isn't a lot of power for many users at that baud rate, so by ganging together multiple  user circuits, they can provide quasi-broadband for a small number of users. The Ka-band product simply uses the feeder link bandwidth for even fewer users, since once that is in use, the comsat loses the capability of communicating with a terrestrial gateway.

Having said that,  no flavor of Iridium will be useful for a space platform in LEO, since the satellites are so low that their propagation cones are too small at orbital altitudes for much communication. There might be enough signal time for short bursts of data that could support a constellation like Planet Labs in very low LEO, but not enough for a commercial space platform.
In an update to that, there's always MEO or, especially, GSO:
There's a discussion on ARocket on this topic.

Henry Spencer pointed out that Spacehab's proposal for a commercial ISS module used Inmarsat for communications. Maybe Jim can shed some light, there.

I see absolutely no show-stoppers, here. You are correct that connecting via Iridium may be spotty (although I wonder if you could communicate via the intra-network links Iridium uses to talk between birds?), but there are several solutions there.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #41 on: 12/04/2013 07:29 am »
With a two BA330 module station, one could be used for commercial manufacturing/labs while second module could be used accommodation and tourists. Any commercial operation would probably require semi/permanent manning by renter's staff ie technicians/scientists. If manned the station would require at least one capsule(eg Dragon) astronaut/crewman for permanently docked capsule. This crewman could also be responsible for station maintenance.

Regular tourist flights would enable staff and crew to be rotated and for resupplying station, plus returning manufactured products/ lab samples to earth. Without regular tourist flights commercial operations would be very expensive as they would have to pay for dedicated flights.

Any staff on station would need some training in operation of capsule and station just in case of emergency. In regards to tourist flights there maybe a requirement for 2 crew and 5 passengers, crew would also double as tour guides.

The of biggest costs will be fuel for orbit adjustment of station, a SEP should help reduce this considerably.
One possible solution is to use visiting 2nd stages to give the station a push, these 2nd stages would require small secondary engine as main engine would be to much. Not sure how feasible this is.






Offline RonM

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #42 on: 12/04/2013 03:45 pm »
What would improve the business model would be to include business trips. If the space station 'hotel' also had a section for experiments, then private or government researchers could go there to setup experiments and bring them back. You'd probably make most of your money from that.

Also host some instruments on the outside to turn it into an Earth resources satellite. Google might pay 'rent' for their own camera to update Google Maps. Weather bureaus might buy data from your instruments.

There are lots of possibilities to boost income. These extra revenue streams could allow you to lower the cost of trips for tourists and increase the number of customers.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #43 on: 12/04/2013 05:27 pm »
They maybe  able to sell a few seats as prizes in marketing campaigns. Similar to load of seats that XCOR sold for men's after shave campaign.

Offline Norm38

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #44 on: 12/08/2013 12:44 am »
With a two BA330 module station, one could be used for commercial manufacturing/labs while second module could be used accommodation and tourists.

Don't all the proposals for industrial use require very low vibration?  Is that possible with tourists bouncing around in the other module?  Or maybe they could share a power/solar array truss in between and get damping that way?

What a hotel really needs to sell rooms, is amenities.  The second BA330 would ideally be mostly open space for zero-g fun/sports.  It would also provide the life support redundancy and cargo space a commercial hotel would probably require.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #45 on: 12/08/2013 03:43 pm »
What would be interesting would be an analysis of the MirCorp MiniStation concept, assuming that each Soyuz brought up 2 paying passengers, and there were 3 - 4 missions per year. Each Soyuz would also bring all consumables required by the crew, and there would be no support crew at the MiniStation between missions.

Assuming that the tourists paid $35 million for an 11 day flight, there might be a business case there.  The trick would be the agreement with Roskosmos and Energia to defray hardware costs.

« Last Edit: 12/08/2013 03:43 pm by Danderman »

Offline chalz

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #46 on: 12/09/2013 06:25 am »
Getting hardware costs down is the trick. At the moment progress is only being made with launchers and unmanned operation. Experience with LEO habitats and HSF operations has not even started. The gap from experiments to commercial exploitation is vast. Compare the first satelites to now or rocket planes from the 50's and now.

If a 'space hotel' means a commercially funded venue in LEO for short stay open to the public. Then if you notice that what we have currently are the ISS and Dragon or Shenzhou and Tiangong. Judging by this, it is not possible with present technology.

Online guckyfan

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #47 on: 12/09/2013 07:39 am »
If a 'space hotel' means a commercially funded venue in LEO for short stay open to the public. Then if you notice that what we have currently are the ISS and Dragon or Shenzhou and Tiangong. Judging by this, it is not possible with present technology.

You are dismissing Bigelow BA-330. It has not yet flown, true. But the technology of inflatable orbiting structures has been demonstrated and will soon be demonstrated on the ISS.

Present technology is not limited to systems that have already flown.


Offline pathfinder_01

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #48 on: 12/09/2013 02:12 pm »

If a 'space hotel' means a commercially funded venue in LEO for short stay open to the public. Then if you notice that what we have currently are the ISS and Dragon or Shenzhou and Tiangong. Judging by this, it is not possible with present technology.

Dragon at the moment is limited to cargo, current version can not support crew.  Shezhou isn't up for commercail use. Soyuz however has carried tourist to the ISS when it carries out other duities.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #49 on: 12/15/2013 06:13 am »
The current situation with the ISS Pump Module illustrates how trying to cost a space hotel and ignoring the ISS experience will lead to bad economic models.

Offline Garrett

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #50 on: 12/15/2013 07:45 am »
The current situation with the ISS Pump Module illustrates how trying to cost a space hotel and ignoring the ISS experience will lead to bad economic models.
Indeed. Any future commercial space "hotel" will almost certainly need to be serviceable without spacewalks for a start. I'm not sure what Bigelow has in mind in that regard.
- "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." - Indiana Jones

Offline MikeAtkinson

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #51 on: 12/15/2013 09:17 am »
Looking at the second spreadsheet on the first page about 2/3 of the revenue goes to the launch provider(s), 15% to the manufacturer (which would decrease if operated for more years) and the rest to the operator.

The manufacturer is highly likely to make a profit, as is the launch provider(s), most of the risk seems to be on the operator.

This leads me to the following conclusions:

1. It is highly advantageous for the launch provider(s), not only do they get recurring business, but the extra volume will allow them to have lower unit costs making them more competitive in other markets.

2. Profitability is better with a high number of tourists per year, the faster the number of tourists can be ramped up the better.

3. If costs can be shared with some other use of the station, especially in the early years, the whole thing looks more viable.

4. The manufacturer and operator should be separate companies. The operator should lease out space to a hotelier, space research organisation(s), space manufacturing companies, governments, etc.

5. A second station looks like it would be more profitable than the first - lower pre-use costs as no development required, proven market (hence lower cost of finance), further decrease in launch costs, being able to learn from the mistakes made on the first station.

Offline JazzFan

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #52 on: 12/15/2013 04:14 pm »
How will the operational needs to keep the station working impact the customer experience for a commercial venture?  What would be the marketing strategy?

Come and spend 20-25 million to get to orbit, spend a day unpacking your own supplies.  Oh, and while would you mind performing a little maintenance to keep the station operating.  A commercial station will similar operations as ISS and require a crew to perform the tasks.  A launch crew of 7 would require one pilot, one maintenance crew, and 5 passengers.  This limits the paying customers per flight to 5 limiting revenue and increasing price per flight for space tourists.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #53 on: 12/16/2013 06:53 pm »
The current situation with the ISS Pump Module illustrates how trying to cost a space hotel and ignoring the ISS experience will lead to bad economic models.
Indeed. Any future commercial space "hotel" will almost certainly need to be serviceable without spacewalks for a start. I'm not sure what Bigelow has in mind in that regard.

That is why I suggested looking at a MirCorp MiniStation 1 concept rather than a large platform for initial commercial operations.
« Last Edit: 12/16/2013 06:59 pm by Danderman »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Viability of a Private/Commercial Space Hotel
« Reply #54 on: 12/16/2013 08:43 pm »
The current situation with the ISS Pump Module illustrates how trying to cost a space hotel and ignoring the ISS experience will lead to bad economic models.
Indeed. Any future commercial space "hotel" will almost certainly need to be serviceable without spacewalks for a start. I'm not sure what Bigelow has in mind in that regard.
I am pretty sure robotic servicing will help this significantly. And I know a certain company that can help... http://blog.altius-space.com/
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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