IMHO, the existence of lunar ice in sufficient quantities to support commercially viable enterprises renders the current NASA-centric exploration architecture obsolete.Q: Impact of lunar ice on Exploration Architecture?A: Shattered paradigms and a need to return to the drawing board both in terms of mission architecture and the geo-political implications of same.
Quote from: robertross on 11/18/2009 05:50 pmQuote from: Downix on 11/18/2009 05:10 pmThe japanese pay huge money for imported ice with special properties. It would, indeed, be a luxury for some ultra-expensive product to be made using lunar ice....Some of those examples include Evian-lunar & Moonbucks...posts I had seen on a CBC blog.Congressional Black Caucus? Christmas Bird Count? Cambridge Brewing Company?
Quote from: Downix on 11/18/2009 05:10 pmThe japanese pay huge money for imported ice with special properties. It would, indeed, be a luxury for some ultra-expensive product to be made using lunar ice....Some of those examples include Evian-lunar & Moonbucks...posts I had seen on a CBC blog.
The japanese pay huge money for imported ice with special properties. It would, indeed, be a luxury for some ultra-expensive product to be made using lunar ice....
...As for the prop mass for the robotic lander, remember that the concept is to use LH2 for prop, so the prop numbers above are not correct. As an example, the Apollo LM had a mass ratio of 50%, using storable propellants, and it landed and achieved lunar orbit.
The mass of the magic machine is TBD, but it could be carried as payload in a lander, perhaps with a mass of 1 ton, or in pieces of 1 ton apiece. Finally, the architecture calls for expendable landers in the initial stages. However, even in the early stages, LH2 propelled landers could also be used as expendable cargo carriers. In this case, the available cargo carried by a one way LH2 lander would be significantly more than 1 ton. Let's say, its a 2 ton payload - could a machine that takes in icy regolith and produces LH2/LOX have a mass of < 2 tons (assuming nuke power)? I don't know.
The Apollo LM was a two stage vehicle. one used for landing and the other for ascent. I used the rocket equation and a LOX/LH2 Isp of 450 to work it out. Ascent and descent each need a mass ratio of about 35%. The fuel needed for descent is the payload during ascent.
How much is your nuke reactor going to mass? A lot more than 2 tons I suggest. Plus a bulldozer type rover to gather the regolith.If the magic machine masses less than 2 tons, its output is likely to be verly low. Meaning weeks or months to produce the fuel.I'm not saying this can't work, but it will likely require 10's if not 100's of tons of equipment, to start producing reasonable quantities.
I think this means we should change from the ESAS architecture to the 1993 lunox architecture.As for the LV this could be a water shed for team direct to make their case.http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/LUNOX.html
Quote from: Patchouli on 11/19/2009 03:57 amI think this means we should change from the ESAS architecture to the 1993 lunox architecture.As for the LV this could be a water shed for team direct to make their case.http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/LUNOX.htmlThis is all wildly larger in scope than what is feasible today. If such systems were required before LH2 could be generated on the Moon, we may need to develop warp drive or find enormous diamonds on the Moon.
Quote from: MickQ on 11/17/2009 12:44 amJust how much ice would need to be processed to supply the propellant needed for one round trip ?I don't know.What I do know is that by landing a LH2 fueled robotic lander with empty prop tanks, the storage of LOX and LH2 would be relatively easy, as it could be stored in the lander tanks.The question of how much lunar regolith or just chunks of ice have to be processed to fill the tanks is a big question. For example, could a crew of 2 land in a "Scout class" lander, and over a couple of days fill the prop tanks of the robot lander?
Just how much ice would need to be processed to supply the propellant needed for one round trip ?
First, I would focus like a laser beam on getting a few highly capable, highly mobile rovers down on the surface, near the more promising locations.That rumored "Project M" could be ideal and I'd betcha a Robonaut could wield a mean shovel.http://robonaut.jsc.nasa.gov/Project M:http://www.americaspace.org/?p=364
Well yes, but robotic precursors are necessary in any event to scout the best landing sites.
Quote from: Bill White on 11/19/2009 04:27 amWell yes, but robotic precursors are necessary in any event to scout the best landing sites. Sorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.
I read one ton of ore yields 36 ounces of water.
Sorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.
Quote from: Patchouli on 11/19/2009 04:35 amSorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.I do not believe that teleoperation of a rover in a shadowed crater would be likely.
Quote from: Danderman on 11/19/2009 05:53 pmQuote from: Patchouli on 11/19/2009 04:35 amSorry I meant uncrewed variants that were teleoperated from Earth or even EML1.These vehicles can operate remotely or even autonomously in the case of ATHLETE.I do not believe that teleoperation of a rover in a shadowed crater would be likely.So you think ESA is just doing these things for fun ? http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM4GKRTKMF_index_0.htmlNASA too ?http://www.astroday.net/MKrovers.html
Built within strict size, weight and power constraints, the rovers had to descend down the steep 40 degrees slopes of a 15-metre deep crater, grab 0.1 kg of specifically selected soil then carry it out again - all the while in darkness.Working from a trailer camp 2000 metres up, each five-strong team was confronted with some distinctly non-lunar weather including heavy rain and clouds. In the event only one rover managed to complete the assignment -Bremen's three-wheeled CESAR (Crater Exploration and Sample Return) robot, duly judged LRC winner on 26 October