Author Topic: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread  (Read 369229 times)

Offline vjkane

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1269
  • Liked: 617
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #180 on: 01/15/2014 06:13 pm »
I want a Ceres lander equipped with a very big drill!

I want a Neptune orbiter with a Triton rover...
In order:

Europa Clipper
Titan/Enceladus Clipper
Modern Venus radar mapper
Uranus atmospheric probe (remote sensing instruments nice, too)

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #181 on: 01/15/2014 06:37 pm »
Modern Venus radar mapper

I think the Indians are likely to do this. Maybe more likely to do it than the U.S.

Offline vjkane

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1269
  • Liked: 617
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #182 on: 01/15/2014 06:50 pm »
Modern Venus radar mapper
I think the Indians are likely to do this. Maybe more likely to do it than the U.S.
Good joint mission with NASA, since the data volumes are pretty high and the DSN would be a godsend. 

Russia and the US are also investigating coordinated Venus missions for the early 2020s.

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #183 on: 01/16/2014 08:40 pm »
Modern Venus radar mapper
I think the Indians are likely to do this. Maybe more likely to do it than the U.S.
1-Good joint mission with NASA, since the data volumes are pretty high and the DSN would be a godsend. 

2-Russia and the US are also investigating coordinated Venus missions for the early 2020s.

1-There's also other precedent. The U.S. supplied a radar for the Indian lunar mission. Now India has a radar that they could put on a Venus mission, but it's also possible that if India wanted to do this mission NASA could supply the radar. In addition, the Indians had problems with overheating on their lunar spacecraft and I think that they received some advice from the U.S. about that (but I'm not sure of that). Thermal control around Venus would be important, and the U.S. (particularly the people at APL who built MESSENGER) have a lot of experience there and could share it.

I'm not saying that it will happen, but such cooperation could build upon some past relationships.

2-The U.S. is actually planning a meeting with the Russians to work out a science definition team for Venera-D. There was an announcement from LPI about this a month or more ago. The obvious thing to do would be to coordinate the U.S. science goals with the Russian ones. My guess is that we'd want to pick the planetary science decadal survey Venus flagship science goals (as opposed to the New Frontiers Venus science goals--although there is overlap) and figure out if the Russians will or can go after some of them, possibly even with some U.S. instruments.


Here's the announcement:

http://science.nasa.gov/researchers/sara/grant-solicitations/roscosmosiki-science-definition-team-venera-d/

Joint NASA Roscosmos/IKI Science Definition Team for the Venera-D
Call for Letters of Application for Membership on the Joint NASA Roscosmos/IKI Science Definition Team for the Venera-D

Solicitation Number:    NNH14ZDA003L
Posted Date:    December 18, 2013
Response Date:    January 3, 2014

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) invites scientists, technologists, and other qualified and interested individuals at U.S. institutions and elsewhere to apply for membership on the Science Definition Team (SDT) for the Venera-D Venus mission. Venera-D is a strategic Venus mission sponsored by Roscosmos, with participation by NASA’s Planetary Science Division, which is part of the Science Mission Directorate (SMD). 

This mission will advance the scientific priorities detailed in the National Research Council’s Planetary Science Decadal Survey, entitled “Visions and Voyages for Planetary Science in the Decade 2013-2022” (the Decadal Survey is available at http://www.nap.edu).  The Decadal Survey and the Phase A study of Venera-D (Venera-D mission information available at http://venera-d.cosmos.ru/index.php?id=658&L=2 ) conducted in Russia under the guidance of IKI (with participation of GEOKHI, IPM, FIRE, IFZ, and Lavochkin Association), show that there is substantial overlap in the objectives and implementation approach.  It is, thus, apparent that considerable cost savings can be achieved by a coordin­­ated and collaborative effort between U.S. and Russia respective space agencies.  This can be accomplished by the two agencies undertaking complementary and coordinated missions to Venus using the 2021-2023 launch opportunities. Venera-D is intended to investigate the complex Venusian environment and to decipher its geological processes and history, including the assessment of its atmospheric progression to its current extreme greenhouse state.

The members of the Venera-D SDT will provide NASA with scientific assistance and direction during preliminary concept definition (Pre-Phase Activities). Near-term activities of the SDT will include the establishment of baseline mission science objectives and a realistic scientific concept of surface and atmospheric operations, development of a strawman architecture, including payload/instrument suite as proof of concept, and suggestions for threshold science objectives/measurements for a preferred viable mission within resource constraints provided by NASA Headquarters.  The products developed by the SDT will be used to develop the NASA Science Mission Directorate (SMD) Announcement of Opportunity (AO) that will outline the primary science objectives of the baseline mission and the character of the payload-based investigations solicited under the open competition associated with the AO.  The SDT will be formed in late January 2014 and disbanded after the work is complete, approximately a year later. The joint Venera-D SDT will:

1.     Consider the major science questions about Venus addressed by Venera –D and the Venus Mission, as reported in http://vfm.jpl.nasa.gov/ and identify how the required observations can be obtained in a complementary or supplementary nature from the available and/or proposed platforms and instruments.

2.     Identify which Venus questions are not addressed by the two missions and explore options to obtain the required data.

3.     Submit a report to the two agencies within 12 months following the formal formation of the team.

All reports and output materials of the Venera-D SDT will be made publicly available, and the SDT will be disbanded prior to any future cooperative Announcement of Opportunity (AO) for participation in the Venera-D mission, including provision of instrumentation and investigation support.  Participation in the Venera-D SDT is open to all qualified and interested individuals.
« Last Edit: 01/16/2014 08:42 pm by Blackstar »

Online jacqmans

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21709
  • Houten, The Netherlands
  • Liked: 8562
  • Likes Given: 320
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #184 on: 02/11/2014 09:12 am »

February 10, 2014

RELEASE 14-046

NASA and French Space Agency Sign Agreement for Mars Mission

 
NASA Administrator Charles Bolden and Jean-Yves Le Gall, president of the National Center of Space Studies of France (CNES), signed an implementing agreement Monday for cooperation on a future NASA Mars lander called the Interior Exploration Using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy, and Heat Transport (InSight) mission.

"This new agreement strengthens the partnership between NASA and CNES in planetary science research, and builds on more than 20 years of cooperation with CNES on Mars exploration," said Bolden. "The research generated by this collaborative mission will give our agencies more information about the early formation of Mars, which will help us understand more about how Earth evolved."

The InSight mission currently is planned for launch in March 2016 and is scheduled to land on Mars six months later. Designed to study the planet's deep interior, the lander seeks to understand the evolutionary formation of rocky planets, including Earth, by investigating Mars' deep interior. InSight also will investigate the dynamics of Martian tectonic activity and meteorite impacts using CNES's Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure instrument (SEIS).

SEIS will measure seismic waves travelling through the interior of Mars to determine its interior structure and composition, which will provide clues about the processes that shaped the planet during its earliest stages of formation.

Other partners working with CNES on the SEIS instrument include: the German Aerospace Center, United Kingdom Space Agency, Swiss Space Office (through the European Space Agency) and NASA.

InSight's international science team is made up of researchers from Austria, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

For more information about SEIS, visit:

http://smsc.cnes.fr/INSIGHT/

For more about InSight, visit:

http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov

For more information about NASA and planetary exploration, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov
Jacques :-)

Online jacqmans

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21709
  • Houten, The Netherlands
  • Liked: 8562
  • Likes Given: 320
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #185 on: 05/19/2014 09:34 pm »

May 19, 2014

Construction to Begin on NASA Mars Lander Scheduled to Launch in 2016


NASA and its international partners now have the go-ahead to begin construction on a new Mars lander after it completed a successful Mission Critical Design Review on Friday.
 
NASA’s Interior Exploration Using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) mission will pierce beneath the Martian surface to study its interior. The mission will investigate how Earth-like planets formed and developed their layered inner structure of core, mantle and crust, and will collect information about those interior zones using instruments never before used on Mars.
 
InSight will launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base, on the central California coast near Lompoc, in March 2016. This will be the first interplanetary mission ever to launch from California. The mission will help inform the agency’s goal of sending a human mission to Mars in the 2030’s.
 
InSight team leaders presented mission-design results this week to a NASA review board, which approved advancing to the next stage of preparation.
 
“Our partners across the globe have made significant progress in getting to this point and are fully prepared to deliver their hardware to system integration starting this November, which is the next major milestone for the project," said Tom Hoffman, InSight Project Manager of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, California. "We now move from doing the design and analysis to building and testing the hardware and software that will get us to Mars and collect the science that we need to achieve mission success."
 
To investigate the planet's interior, the stationary lander will carry a robotic arm that will deploy surface and burrowing instruments contributed by France and Germany. The national space agencies of France and Germany -- Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales (CNES) and Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR) -- are partnering with NASA by providing InSight's two main science instruments.
 
The Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS) will be built by CNES in partnership with DLR and the space agencies of Switzerland and the United Kingdom. It will measure waves of ground motion carried through the interior of the planet, from "marsquakes" and meteor impacts. The Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package, from DLR, will measure heat coming toward the surface from the planet's interior.
 
"Mars actually offers an advantage over Earth itself for understanding how habitable planetary surfaces can form," said Bruce Banerdt, InSight Principal Investigator from JPL. "Both planets underwent the same early processes. But Mars, being smaller, cooled faster and became less active while Earth kept churning. So Mars better preserves the evidence about the early stages of rocky planets' development."
 
The three-legged lander will go to a site near the Martian equator and provide information for a planned mission length of 720 days -- about two years. InSight adapts a design from the successful NASA Phoenix Mars Lander, which examined ice and soil on far-northern Mars in 2008.
 
"We will incorporate many features from our Phoenix spacecraft into InSight, but the differences between the missions require some differences in the InSight spacecraft," said InSight Program Manager Stu Spath of Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company, Denver, Colorado. "For example, the InSight mission duration is 630 days longer than Phoenix, which means the lander will have to endure a wider range of environmental conditions on the surface."
 
Guided by images of the surroundings taken by the lander, InSight's robotic arm will place the seismometer on the surface and then place a protective covering over it to minimize effects of wind and temperature on the sensitive instrument. The arm will also put the heat-flow probe in position to hammer itself into the ground to a depth of 3 to 5 yards (2.7 to 4 1/2 meters).
 
Another experiment will use the radio link between InSight and NASA's Deep Space Network antennas on Earth to precisely measure a wobble in Mars' rotation that could reveal whether Mars has a molten or solid core. Wind and temperature sensors from Spain's Centro de Astrobiologia and a pressure sensor will monitor weather at the landing site, and a magnetometer will measure magnetic disturbances caused by the Martian ionosphere.
 
InSight's international science team is made up of researchers from Austria, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States. JPL manages InSight for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program of competitively selected mission. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama, manages the Discovery Program. Lockheed Martin will build the lander and other parts of the spacecraft at its Littleton, Colorado, facility near Denver.
 
For more about InSight, visit:
 
http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov
 
For more information about Mars missions:
 
http://www.nasa.gov/mars
 
For more about the Discovery Program, visit:
 
http://discovery.nasa.gov
Jacques :-)

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #186 on: 05/20/2014 12:32 am »
To some, not as sexy as a rover, but to me it is way more exciting!
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #187 on: 05/20/2014 08:19 pm »
To some, not as sexy as a rover, but to me it is way more exciting!

I'm not going to say it's exciting, but it will check an important box in planetary science. We have not done a seismic mission since Apollo, and those seismometers were ancient technology. This is much more advanced. And once we do this mission it is likely to open up a lot of questions that will lead to new scientific theories and discoveries. It's going to be like shining a light into a dark corner of a room for the first time.

Online redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2539
  • Illinois USA
  • Liked: 683
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #188 on: 05/20/2014 09:21 pm »
To some, not as sexy as a rover, but to me it is way more exciting!

I'm not going to say it's exciting, but it will check an important box in planetary science. We have not done a seismic mission since Apollo, and those seismometers were ancient technology. This is much more advanced. And once we do this mission it is likely to open up a lot of questions that will lead to new scientific theories and discoveries. It's going to be like shining a light into a dark corner of a room for the first time.

Definitely agreed.  I remember seismologists comparing NASA's current seismic understanding of Mars to maps of canals on its surface from 100 years ago.  Basically it's only the Earth and Moon we have any details on regarding interior activity; every other body has just inferred hints of details from orbiters with ultrastable oscillator tracking.

Obviously with Mars there's been plenty done with "follow the water" but that's far from sole factor for life.  MAVEN will soon pin down the details of the atmosphere's evolution which leaves finding out the heat source.  I'd be willing to bet with or without atmospheric loss once the volcanoes started to run down the climate became more erratic.  Of course, we simply don't know and scientists have been making educated guesses.

Hopefully InSight will prove as long-lived as the MER rovers, namely so a large database can be established on the Martian interior.  Obviously Phoenix was short-lived due to the polar winter, so it'd be interesting to see how the same design would last under better conditions.

With luck the construction won't take long.  I also wonder if they're still going to add the ISIS secondary payload that's meant to complement the OSIRIS-REX mission.
« Last Edit: 05/20/2014 09:23 pm by redliox »
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #189 on: 05/21/2014 12:33 am »
I saw a presentation on InSight last week. A couple of take-aways:

-it is launching from Vandenberg. No real reason that I heard except that their Atlas V has excess capacity, so they can. My guess is that getting off of the Cape has benefits. Fewer Vandenberg launches and they will probably get more attention at the range.

-it is landing at the same latitude as another spacecraft on Mars (I think it is Curiosity). This is going to pose some communications problems.

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #190 on: 05/21/2014 03:02 pm »
Sure that's not longitude? That would cause both to be in view of earth ground stations at the same time.

Edit: According to the graphic in this article, it and Curiosity are quite close in latitude and longitude. My eyeball is guessing that is about 300 km of separation. (~10 degrees * 13,000 km / 360)
http://www.space.com/22645-nasa-mars-insight-landing-site-options.html

I suspect they will have to juggle who they talk to when. Especially if using orbiting Mars satellites as a relay.

« Last Edit: 05/21/2014 03:11 pm by kevin-rf »
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #191 on: 05/21/2014 05:21 pm »
I thought it was longitude and it has something to do with the relays, not direct line of sight.

The guy who presented that at MEPAG (you can look up his presentation) said that when he first discussed that with his superiors they said "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" and he replied "I know, but it's not my fault!"

He was pretty funny, actually. Had a funny way of putting down a complaint about the Vandenberg launch site. You would have had to be there.

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #192 on: 05/21/2014 05:23 pm »
Here's the InSight presentation at MEPAG that I referred to.

By the way, he explained that the landing site options were REALLY constrained. That's why they're so close to Curiosity and why it's not his fault. I forget why they were so constrained, but essentially there's not any other place on the planet that they can go for this science and landing terrain. They're stuck with it.
« Last Edit: 05/21/2014 05:26 pm by Blackstar »

Offline SaxtonHale

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 175
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 143
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #193 on: 05/22/2014 03:08 am »
I thought it was longitude and it has something to do with the relays, not direct line of sight.

Curiosity and InSight would have to split uplink opportunities to the polar orbiters, which would be overhead both at pretty much the same time. ISTM Curiosity will get priority because of the drive-planning tempo and large data volume.

The orbiters are already unable to do as much science over that region because they are busy receiving uplinks, and this will probably only get worse with two missions.

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #194 on: 05/22/2014 01:23 pm »
Curiosity and InSight would have to split uplink opportunities to the polar orbiters, which would be overhead both at pretty much the same time. ISTM Curiosity will get priority because of the drive-planning tempo and large data volume.

Yeah, I can see Curiosity getting priority. But the nature of InSight's data will make that easier--it can sit there recording any seismic data, since Mars is not going to be shaking all the time, and then relay it every so often. Dunno if they might skip days with comms. Then again, it will be more intense early in the mission.

I'd also note that InSight will fly considerably after Curiosity's primary mission is over. But Curiosity is the more important mission.

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8273
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #195 on: 05/22/2014 01:33 pm »
I don't know what will happen with the wheels degradation on Curiosity. But JPL has a tendency to design rovers that slightly outlive their requires mission life.
Btw, now that we see this map of where they can actually land, what would have they done if they had gone with the three stations proposal? Abandon the EDL and move to other design? Retrofit ALHAT? Go nuclear?
« Last Edit: 05/22/2014 01:34 pm by baldusi »

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #196 on: 05/22/2014 11:45 pm »
I don't know what will happen with the wheels degradation on Curiosity. But JPL has a tendency to design rovers that slightly outlive their requires mission life.

Somebody discussed Curiosity's wheel condition at MEPAG last week. I don't know if this has been reported, but he said several things:

-they now think that the wear and tear on the wheels is due to both the rover's heavier weight AND a specific kind of terrain that he described as like driving over razor blades sticking out of rocks.

-their first line of defense is to look for that terrain and avoid it if possible.

-if they have to drive over that kind of terrain, they think they know how to minimize the damage.

-Mars 2020 will have different wheels, although they have not developed that design yet.

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #197 on: 05/22/2014 11:49 pm »
Btw, now that we see this map of where they can actually land, what would have they done if they had gone with the three stations proposal? Abandon the EDL and move to other design? Retrofit ALHAT? Go nuclear?

I don't know what restricted them to that small landing site. It might not be the seismic sensor, but might be the heat transfer sensor instead. So maybe they could have taken more sites.

But the restriction has something to do with the kind of rock that they want to access. They think they can only find it at that location.

If I ever run into Banerdt, I'll try to ask him about what he thinks of doing a network and how he would do it knowing what he does now. I won't otherwise bother him by email because my rule of thumb is that if somebody is a PI on a mission in development, they're going to be too busy to respond to email and I should just stay out of their way.
« Last Edit: 05/22/2014 11:49 pm by Blackstar »

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8273
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #198 on: 05/23/2014 08:24 pm »
Btw, now that we see this map of where they can actually land, what would have they done if they had gone with the three stations proposal? Abandon the EDL and move to other design? Retrofit ALHAT? Go nuclear?

I don't know what restricted them to that small landing site. It might not be the seismic sensor, but might be the heat transfer sensor instead. So maybe they could have taken more sites.

But the restriction has something to do with the kind of rock that they want to access. They think they can only find it at that location.

If I ever run into Banerdt, I'll try to ask him about what he thinks of doing a network and how he would do it knowing what he does now. I won't otherwise bother him by email because my rule of thumb is that if somebody is a PI on a mission in development, they're going to be too busy to respond to email and I should just stay out of their way.
From the presentation, between the EDL, the need for all through the year solar power and thermal environment they had just two places with MOLA<2.5km AND Lat {5N,3N}. And one was the Valis Marineris, that was considered risky to land and the winds would affect power. And this was even before the inclination and rock formations limitations of the landing system and the soil type for the instruments.
Since seismic stations are better spread very far away to be able to study deeper, it would seem that for a network the only options would be a different EDL or an RTG. I know RTG are expensive, but three ARSG should have proven a nice debut. And I guess they could have bundled the three crafts in a single Atlas 551.
BTW, I don't want to sound like a fanboi, but if Red Dragon could actually do MOLA<-1.5km, like they said, and integrate with ALHAT for rocky terrain, the network might be done for about 1B including launches. I just want a lunar and a martian seismic network. But that's because I believe that it's one of the few areas that might improve oil prospecting and thus have a direct and tangible effect on Earth's economy.
« Last Edit: 05/23/2014 08:28 pm by baldusi »

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15288
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #199 on: 05/24/2014 06:57 am »
Here's an image from the Cerberus proposal. I'll see if I have the whole slide set here and I'll post it.

JPL did not approve this proposal to go ahead as one of their New Frontiers proposals. Presumably that was because they thought there was no way to get it inside the cost cap.

By the way, if you want to have some fun, go read the thread from September 2012 called "What Next After MSL." Compare that to what is happening today (skip John F's posts).

« Last Edit: 05/24/2014 12:17 pm by Blackstar »

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0