Author Topic: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX  (Read 3223 times)

Offline solarx

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7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« on: 01/22/2007 10:21 AM »
if NASA make 7-stage rocket:

all stage are LH2 & LOX
final speed when leaving earth = over 108,000 km/h = 30 km/s   (without other planets assistance)
each stage has 1 engine.
some external tanks as a replacement of a stage if possible
(like that one for space shuttle launching).

payload: 1 ton spacecraft ( such as Voyager)

                              engine thrust    burning time
payload:        1 ton  ----------------- ----------------
7-stage:       10 ton     0.01 MN              450 s
6-stage:       20 ton     0.05 MN              450 s
5-stage:       70 ton     0.20 MN              450 s
4-stage:     200 ton     1      MN              450 s
3-stage:     700 ton     5      MN              450 s
2-stage:   2000 ton    25     MN              450 s
1-stage:   7000 ton  125     MN              450 s
TOTAL:   10000 ton (included fuel)    over 60 minutes

it could be , NASA have this capacity isn't it :P
give some opinion & ideas :P

calculate please..... :P

Offline Space Lizard

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #1 on: 01/22/2007 09:06 PM »
I've read somewhere that the largest cryo launcher we could envision won't exceed 3000 tons because we do not want to risk the explosion of anything larger on the ground in case of problem.
I watch rockets

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RE: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #2 on: 01/22/2007 09:13 PM »
I hope you're clear of the atmosphere before you hit that 108,000km/h mark. :o

Offline solarx

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #3 on: 01/23/2007 10:42 AM »
yeah of course.....by the time has reach 50,000 km altitude , it has much less atmosphere density.....isn't it (^o^)

Offline khallow

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #4 on: 01/23/2007 06:57 PM »
So let's see if I understand this. You made a rocket using LH/LOX that throws 1 ton to escape velocity from the Solar System using 7 stages and a 60 minute burn time? Are you exploiting Earth's motion as well? If not, this seems to be equivalent to a trajectory perpendicular to the plane (and Earth's motion) of the Solar System. I think it'd be more effective to launch a payload into Earth or solar orbit and then let a high ISP engine like an RTG (radioisotope thermoelectric generator) powered ion engine or VASIMR (variable specific impulse magnetoplasma rocket) slowly push you out of the solar system. You get more payload and can exploit gravity assists more effectively, even if your first few stages are lower ISP like kerosene/LOX.

Seriously, you lose a lot of payload and speed from going with LH/LOX here.

Space Lizard, there's no real limit on the size of the launcher. If a huge rocket blows up, you just need to replace what gets wiped out. Maybe the 3000 ton limit is for the Cape Canaveral location? People live about 15-20 km away and the VAB and other expensive structures are about 4 km away from the Shuttle launch locations.

bhankill, the first stage probably will clear most of the atmosphere by itself.
Karl Hallowell

Offline solarx

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #5 on: 01/24/2007 12:05 PM »
any scientists & engineers there..... (^o^)

i have 2 more questions:

1) Is it possible by launching that 10,000 tonnes rocket, a spacecraft could reach over 108,000 km/h  ?  
    (without other planets gravity assistance)

2) If yes, we need 7 stages or only 4 stages to reach this goal  ?

.....thank you.....

Offline vda

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #6 on: 01/25/2007 10:00 AM »
Quote
solarx - 23/1/2007  2:05 PM
any scientists & engineers there..... (^o^)
i have 2 more questions:
1) Is it possible by launching that 10,000 tonnes rocket, a spacecraft could reach over 108,000 km/h  ?  
    (without other planets gravity assistance)
2) If yes, we need 7 stages or only 4 stages to reach this goal  ?
.....thank you.....

I am not a rocket science guy. I think that the question is wrong. It's irrelevant whether it is possible, because it's stupid.

(1) As was already said, there are better ways to launch something out of Solar system (ion engine is indeed one I like).
(2) There is not nearly that much of important stuff to explore out there. Moon/Mars/asteroids are much much more strategically important.

Offline JIS

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #7 on: 01/25/2007 10:30 AM »
Sorry, but the cost would be huge. 3rd stage would need engine with higher thrust than RS-68 (Delta IV) and second stage would need engine about thrust of SRB. LOX/LHX 1st stage engine with thrust of 125 MN is simply imposible.
The cost of this excercise would be enormous and as somebody said it would be easier to use some existing (or planned) hardware. For example Ares V with EDS can boost about 60mT to 12.5 km/s. If this 60mT would be a high isp (ion engine) stage you can easily achieve really high velocities.
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline mong'

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #8 on: 01/25/2007 11:38 AM »
or just plain old gravity assist, new horizons is on a sun escape trajectory and all it needed was an Atlas V and a jupiter gravity assist, and the probe already weighs 500 kg

Offline solarx

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #9 on: 01/25/2007 11:26 PM »
Quote
JIS - 25/1/2007  5:30 AM

Sorry, but the cost would be huge. 3rd stage would need engine with higher thrust than RS-68 (Delta IV) and second stage would need engine about thrust of SRB. LOX/LHX 1st stage engine with thrust of 125 MN is simply imposible.........

we could make 1 huge engine with few combustion chambers & nozzles , it's still possible.

it's not compulsory to use all the stages for all missions ,
the design could be configurable means - the stages used depend on the need , could be adjust to mission requirements.

for example:

only used "stage 2 , 3 , 4 " plus "Payload" to "land human on the moon".

only used "stage 4 , 5 , 6 " to place a spacecraft at LEO.

Offline solarx

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+ 2 solid rockets boosters assist First stage.
« Reply #10 on: 02/23/2007 07:47 AM »
Quote
JIS - 25/1/2007  5:30 AM
..... 3rd stage would need engine with higher thrust than RS-68 (Delta IV) and second stage would need engine about thrust of SRB. LOX/LHX 1st stage engine with thrust of 125 MN is simply imposible.........

we could add '2 solid rocket boosters' -  assist '1st stage' like those at Ares V

each has:

Thrust : 68 MN :bleh:
Weight: 2400 ton :bleh:
Diameter: 7.5 m

Overall rocket weight to be almost 15000 ton :bleh:

Offline spaceflight101

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #11 on: 02/24/2007 11:25 AM »
Quote
vda - 25/1/2007  6:00 AM

"I am not a rocket science guy. I think that the question is wrong. It's irrelevant whether it is possible, because it's stupid."

Fascinating comment...

I believe you missed the entire point of the man's question. Could you build this device?

Google "multi-engined dragsters" and "Mesabi range locomotives".
Land speed attempts have utilized mulitiple engines for decades.

I believe that the only obstacle would be the sheer weight of the completed device, and maintaining structural rigidity under the stresses of launch would be a formidable task.

The other concern would be how strong and how far the shock wave would travel if it exploded on liftoff. It's been said that the Shuttle contains the same energy that was released by the first atomic weapons.

Flattening everything between Jupiter Inlet and Daytona Beach would not be good for public relations, you know!

 ;)

Online William Graham

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #12 on: 02/24/2007 11:39 AM »
Quote
solarx - 26/1/2007  12:26 AM
we could make 1 huge engine with few combustion chambers & nozzles , it's still possible.
"1 huge engine with a few combustion chambers" - isn't that a contradiction in terms.

To my understanding, if you made an "engine" with, X combustion chambers, you end up with X seperate engines.

Offline Jim

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Re: 7-stage Rocket - LH2 & LOX
« Reply #13 on: 02/24/2007 12:21 PM »
Quote
GW_Simulations - 24/2/2007  7:39 AM

Quote
solarx - 26/1/2007  12:26 AM
we could make 1 huge engine with few combustion chambers & nozzles , it's still possible.
"1 huge engine with a few combustion chambers" - isn't that a contradiction in terms.

To my understanding, if you made an "engine" with, X combustion chambers, you end up with X seperate engines.

The RD-171 with one set of turbomachinery and 4 combustion chambers/nozzles is one engine.  
The Atlas MA-5A had 2 sets of turbomachinery and 3 nozzles and it was 2 engines.  The Soyuz has 20 main combustion chambers/nozzles ignite at launch but only 5 sets of turbomachinery - 5 engines.

The turbomachinery determines the number of engines

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