Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 (F9-B1036) West Coast JRTI return - Coverage  (Read 48105 times)

Offline Chris Bergin

ASDS return coverage thread for B1036.

Please note: Accredit all shots. Take photos yourself and upload. Use assets but accredit.

===

Mission Coverage for this booster:

   NSF Threads for Iridium NEXT Flight 2: Discussion / Updates / L2 Coverage May-June
   NSF Articles for Iridium NEXT Flight 2:  SpaceX testing Vandy Falcon 9 amid schedule realignment
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/spacex-falcon-9-iridium-next-2-launch/
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/spacex-falcon-9-iridium-next-2-launch/

Flight 1 was a successful launch and first stage offshore landing, January 14, 2017 (9:54 PST/17:54 UTC) on Falcon 9 from SLC-4E at Vandenberg.  See the Flight 1 Discussion Thread for more information and links to other Flight 1 threads and articles.


Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent)  /   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles  /  SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions)
   L2 SpaceX Section
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Offline ehb

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Kelly C appears to be the the tug for JRTI's return, but she & NRC Quest, in proximity, are both heading SE (which is away from the Port of Los Angeles - as of a few minutes ago), so no point in making return projections yet.

---

If they headed directly to LA from their current position at their current slow speed, it would take about 3.5 days.

« Last Edit: 06/26/2017 03:27 pm by ehb »

Offline ehb

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KELLY C last report 0h 7m ago
projections computed as straight line to PORT OF LOS ANGELES
arrival means 'in vicinity of port'
based upon current speed:
 arrival projected 2d 0h 36m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 20:04 PDT 2017
based upon average of last 10 reported speeds:
 arrival projected 2d 4h 6m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 23:34 PDT 2017

computed on data from marinetraffic.com

For some reason, I am seeing only Terr-AIS for KELLY C and no SAT-AIS.
So anyone should be able to access this data.

Offline ehb

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KELLY C last report 0h 2m ago
projections computed as straight line to PORT OF LOS ANGELES
arrival means 'in vicinity of port'
based upon current speed:
 arrival projected 1d 3h 36m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 07:56 PDT 2017
based upon average of last 10 reported speeds:
 arrival projected 1d 7h 18m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 11:38 PDT 2017

computed on data including only Terr-AIS from marinetraffic.com
« Last Edit: 06/27/2017 11:22 am by ehb »

Offline ehb

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KELLY C last report 0h 3m ago
projections computed as straight line to PORT OF LOS ANGELES
arrival means 'in vicinity of port'
based upon current speed:
 arrival projected 0d 13h 41m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 05:53 PDT 2017
based upon average of last 10 reported speeds:
 arrival projected 0d 15h 0m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 07:12 PDT 2017

computed on data including only Terr-AIS from marinetraffic.com

---

KELLY C & NRC QUEST's current headings will take them to the east of San Clemente and Santa Catalina islands.

Offline Captain DMYC

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IMO... BOTH the KELLY C & NRC QUEST's are pulling JRTI.  USCG on Sunday indicated a small craft advisory with winds up to 25 mph.  Tracking both ships history indicates they departed at the same time and from the same location, west of Mexico, South of San Diego.    They should track the inner channel between Catalina and the coast.  Might be visible from my home in coastal South OC.

Offline rberry

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IMO... BOTH the KELLY C & NRC QUEST's are pulling JRTI.  USCG on Sunday indicated a small craft advisory with winds up to 25 mph.  Tracking both ships history indicates they departed at the same time and from the same location, west of Mexico, South of San Diego.    They should track the inner channel between Catalina and the coast.  Might be visible from my home in coastal South OC.

Not impossible, but I highly doubt it. NRC Quest's speeds have been extremely variable ranging from <3 knts to >8 knts, whereas Kelly C's have been very steady around 5 knts. Also their positions always have NRC Quest at variable distances behind Kelly C. I would guess that NRC Quest is following JRTI and Kelly C. It is strange though.
-Ryan

Offline ehb

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KELLY C last report 0h 2m ago
projections computed as straight line to PORT OF LOS ANGELES
arrival means 'in vicinity of port'
based upon current speed:
 arrival projected 0d 12h 35m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 08:58 PDT 2017
based upon average of last 10 reported speeds:
 arrival projected 0d 15h 18m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 11:41 PDT 2017

computed on data including only Terr-AIS from marinetraffic.com

---

Their heading is directly towards port & the track takes them east of the islands.
About 60 nm out.

Offline ehb

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KELLY C last report 0h 2m ago
projections computed as straight line to PORT OF LOS ANGELES
arrival means 'in vicinity of port'
based upon current speed:
 arrival projected 0d 5h 42m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 10:06 PDT 2017
based upon average of last 10 reported speeds:
 arrival projected 0d 6h 42m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 11:06 PDT 2017

computed on data including only Terr-AIS from marinetraffic.com
« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 11:28 am by ehb »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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According to marinetraffic.com Kelly C has rounded Santa Catalina Island and is heading towards port at about 4 kn, with NRC Quest just behind.

Offline ehb

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KELLY C last report 0h 2m ago
projections computed as straight line to PORT OF LOS ANGELES
arrival means 'in vicinity of port'
based upon current speed:
 arrival projected 0d 2h 12m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 10:33 PDT 2017
based upon average of last 10 reported speeds:
 arrival projected 0d 2h 23m from now
 which is Wed Jun 28 10:44 PDT 2017

computed on data including only Terr-AIS from marinetraffic.com

---

Now within 10 NM.
« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 03:22 pm by ehb »

Offline dorkmo

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any live feeds in the area?

Offline ehb

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any live feeds in the area?

Port of LA live stream is here
But do not know if we will see JTRI on it.

~5.3 NM out now.

Offline Flying Beaver

any live feeds in the area?

Port of LA live stream is here
But do not know if we will see JTRI on it.

~5.3 NM out now.

Nah, looking north from past the SpaceX dock.
Watched B1019 land in person 21/12/2015.

Offline Kabloona

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For people trying to map where the barge will dock, the following article mentions the location.

http://www.dailybreeze.com/science/20170117/spacex-rocket-docks-at-san-pedro-home-port-after-successful-mission

Quote
Local leaders hope it won’t be the last time a SpaceX rocket docks at the AltaSea marine research facility across the street from Cabrillo Marina.

If you Google "Cabrillo Marina Los Angeles" and look at the satellite map view, you can see the barge in the photo, docked nearby in the East Channel across from AltaSea. The words "East Channel" are plastered right atop the barge.
« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 04:51 pm by Kabloona »

Offline ehb

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NRC Quest appears to be coming in at 9.8 kts @ about 3 NM out.
KELLY C has slowed down to 2.9 kts @ about 4.5 NM out.


Offline ehb

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NRC Quest docked.
KELLY C now ~ 1.5 NM out, coming in at 3.7 kts.

Wish someone had a camera there to welcome them....


Offline RedSky

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NRC Quest docked.
KELLY C now ~ 1.5 NM out, coming in at 3.7 kts.

Wish someone had a camera there to welcome them....



Yeah... if Kelly C goes to the slip where NRC Quest is docked... it won't get picked up by that webcam.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Kelly C is now well inside the harbour and approaching its berth (from MarineTraffic.com)

Offline Req

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« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 06:37 pm by Req »

Offline Req

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Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Quote
Welcome home!! #spacex #falcon9 @CBSLA @KNX1070 #sanpedro

https://twitter.com/shorealonefilms/status/880127249961201665

Edit to add: other picture two posts up is at
https://twitter.com/shorealonefilms/status/880129988468527104
« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 07:08 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Chris Bergin

Good work everyone. Remember to post specific links. No one wants to read the endless list of nonsense searching "SpaceX" on Twitter, links that will have no relevance "tomorrow" as they will be linking to events not related to this one.
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Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Quote
Coming across the flats. #Falcon9 headed to dock.

https://twitter.com/htitussweany/status/880136589162143744

Offline Scylla

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I reject your reality and substitute my own--Doctor Who

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Here's higher resolution

Are they using the roomba? The engine section is conveniently covered up or too low resolution in all of the images! Or is it just on OCISLY?
« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 10:38 pm by Kamik423 »

Offline southshore26

There is only 1 on OCISLY.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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http://photos.dailybreeze.com/2017/06/photos-spacex-falcon-9-booster-towed-into-port-of-los-angeles-after-iridium-2-launch/#1

In this particular picture, you can really see how close the bells are to the ground. Usually, you can almost walk right under them!
« Last Edit: 06/28/2017 11:27 pm by tvg98 »

Offline Lars-J

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http://photos.dailybreeze.com/2017/06/photos-spacex-falcon-9-booster-towed-into-port-of-los-angeles-after-iridium-2-launch/#1

In this particular picture, you can really see how close the bells are to the ground. Usually, you can almost walk right under them!

It is possible that this is a tweaked leg design that allows more piston compression. Both of the last two landings settled this low, so it is a possible explanation.

Offline SweetWater

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http://photos.dailybreeze.com/2017/06/photos-spacex-falcon-9-booster-towed-into-port-of-los-angeles-after-iridium-2-launch/#1

In this particular picture, you can really see how close the bells are to the ground. Usually, you can almost walk right under them!

It is possible that this is a tweaked leg design that allows more piston compression. Both of the last two landings settled this low, so it is a possible explanation.

It would make a lot of sense for SpaceX to design the legs to have the back end of the first stage closer to the deck of the drone ship if possible. Most of the mass of the rocket is - presumably - in the engines and octoweb. Having the center of gravity even slightly closer to the deck would make the stage more stable, particularly in rough seas.

Offline ulm_atms

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It would make a lot of sense for SpaceX to design the legs to have the back end of the first stage closer to the deck of the drone ship if possible. Most of the mass of the rocket is - presumably - in the engines and octoweb. Having the center of gravity even slightly closer to the deck would make the stage more stable, particularly in rough seas.

True...but Thaicom-8 was REALLY bad on leaning and it didn't seem to have any issues with stability that I know of.

I see two issues with "lowering" the final landing position so to speak.

1.  Less room to work under (roomba on OCISLY for example) making securing harder with those tighter clearances.
2.  Less margin for up and down movements due to landing issues (ASDSs do move up and down)

My personal opinion watching both landings is that OCISLY's was at the limit of the rocket (3 engine burn, higher G's, WAY less time to get Velocity=0/Height=0 correct) so it hit harder with a more horizontal movement then usual. (FYI...would LOVE to see what is left of the grid fins...I suspect one or more are not 100% complete anymore and that cause the excess horizontal movement at the end to adjust for that).  JRTI's landing was hard too due to wave motion and the rocket shut off before the feet were touching the deck(that's what I get from viewing the video anyways).

Basically...these two hit harder then usual/wanted and because of that they used up crush core and are sitting lower then normal.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Close-up of returning grid fins from Matt Hartman's flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81789298@N05/sets

Offline Scylla

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Offline ulm_atms

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Close-up of returning grid fins from Matt Hartman's flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81789298@N05/sets

Are you sure those are the same??  They look like they did before launch...  8)

Offline cppetrie

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Close-up of returning grid fins from Matt Hartman's flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81789298@N05/sets
They look none worse for the wear. Ready to be bolted on to the next core.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Close-up of returning grid fins from Matt Hartman's flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81789298@N05/sets

Are you sure those are the same??  They look like they did before launch...  8)

As they should, right? And I thought I heard that over time they would take on kind of a golden patina from oxidation...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Semmel

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And I thought I heard that over time they would take on kind of a golden patina from oxidation...

Wasn't it titanium nitrate that us golden? Anyhow, not sure about the patina. If the soot from the reentry and landing burns is not cleaned, probably not. If the soot is cleaned away, it could easily scape off a thin titanium oxide or nitrate layer. Like you, I am hopeful they turn golden over time, would look neat :-)

Offline cambrianera

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And I thought I heard that over time they would take on kind of a golden patina from oxidation...

Wasn't it titanium nitrate that us golden? Anyhow, not sure about the patina. If the soot from the reentry and landing burns is not cleaned, probably not. If the soot is cleaned away, it could easily scape off a thin titanium oxide or nitrate layer. Like you, I am hopeful they turn golden over time, would look neat :-)

Titanium Nitride (TiN) has golden appearance.
Lot of types for tool coating, one of most likely is TiAlN (color seems the same as actual grid fins, and very good resistance to heating).
Oh to be young again. . .

Online meekGee

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Fwiw, TiN should not scrape off easily.  I think.  It's not really a foreign layer like soot, it's more of a modification of the metal lattice on near the surface.
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Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Nice photo, not sure if this is the original poster?

Quote
Padres No Hitter ⚾️‏ @PadresNoHitter 2m2 minutes ago

@SpaceX #Falcon9 first stage that launched @IridiumComm 11-20 satellites arrived in port today. Just amazing to see. #spacex #iridiumnext

https://twitter.com/PadresNoHitter/status/880397746003300353

Offline cscott

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Wow, not even the falcon logo smeared! So was this just a lower-energy entry, or is part of the wear seen in the interstage (eg on BulgariaSat) due to grid fin SPAM and Al burning off? Perhaps hot particles of spam and Al hit the interstage and sand it down?

Offline Skylab

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The latest launch was barely recoverable. We'll have to see what happens nect. (It was a very heavy satellite.)

Offline Shanuson

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The latest launch was barely recoverable. We'll have to see what happens nect. (It was a very heavy satellite.)

You mean the other launch this weekend on the east coast, this one was the easier one.

Offline deruch

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Wow, not even the falcon logo smeared! So was this just a lower-energy entry, or is part of the wear seen in the interstage (eg on BulgariaSat) due to grid fin SPAM and Al burning off? Perhaps hot particles of spam and Al hit the interstage and sand it down?

Check against previous Iridium launch for what's likely the best comparison.
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Offline Scylla

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Pauline Acalin @w00ki33

First used set of titanium grid fins through binoculars this morning at port in Long Beach. So rad. #iridium-2 #spacex #beartraps
https://twitter.com/w00ki33/status/880430133538045953
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Offline cscott

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Note that there's definitely a "hot side" during re-entry, and those two fins are the hot ones. The other two fins probably don't see anything close to the same heat load.

Offline vaporcobra

Found an absolute motherlode of photos on Instagram from a SpaceX employee who shall remain unnamed... Handful of related photos attached below, album here with more. http://imgur.com/a/cuj76

As an example, this photo dated January 26th was captioned "Headed for refurb and reflight!"
« Last Edit: 06/29/2017 08:40 pm by vaporcobra »

Offline ulm_atms

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Close-up of returning grid fins from Matt Hartman's flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81789298@N05/sets
Are you sure those are the same??  They look like they did before launch...  8)
As they should, right? And I thought I heard that over time they would take on kind of a golden patina from oxidation...

That was a joke  ;)

And supposedly they should get more golden as heat + oxygen = oxidation which should increase it's temperature limit over time.  Also, their cleaning should be like cast iron cookware...which is basically, don't clean them.  Don't want to scrub that oxidation off.

On a slightly off-topic question...  I searched around but couldn't find what I was looking for.  Does anyone know or have a very educated guess as to how much an aluminum fin costs to make compared to the titanium fin?  I know it is quite a bit more (otherwise SpaceX would have used that from day 1) but I have just not seen a $ figure, just a 4X or 7X more type answer.

Offline cppetrie

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Close-up of returning grid fins from Matt Hartman's flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81789298@N05/sets
Are you sure those are the same??  They look like they did before launch...  8)
As they should, right? And I thought I heard that over time they would take on kind of a golden patina from oxidation...

That was a joke  ;)

And supposedly they should get more golden as heat + oxygen = oxidation which should increase it's temperature limit over time.  Also, their cleaning should be like cast iron cookware...which is basically, don't clean them.  Don't want to scrub that oxidation off.

On a slightly off-topic question...  I searched around but couldn't find what I was looking for.  Does anyone know or have a very educated guess as to how much an aluminum fin costs to make compared to the titanium fin?  I know it is quite a bit more (otherwise SpaceX would have used that from day 1) but I have just not seen a $ figure, just a 4X or 7X more type answer.
If I understood Elon's tweet from before the launch they are casting the titanium fins and then machining them to spec. I'd guess that they used a similar process for the aluminum fins. The titanium fins are slightly larger, maybe 20%? The machining work is probably more complicated because of scalloped edges, but is surely being done by CNC machines so it's just time on machine not more labor. That seems like a wash with adding SPAM to the Al fins. I can't recall seeing a weight estimate for the fins, but the cost for each should be reasonably approximated by weight per fin times cost of material plus maybe 10% for manufacturing costs? Pure titanium bar stock appears to be going for about $30 per kg compared to about $2 per kg for aircraft grade aluminum. I'm sure they can buy it cheaper at the quantities they are using but the cost difference should be reflected primarily in the cost difference of the material itself. Anybody got an estimate of grid fin weight?

Somebody feel free to correct me if my facts or logic is flawed.

Offline livingjw

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What is the cool patch for? Anyone?

John

Offline cscott

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Pure titanium bar stock appears to be going for about $30 per kg compared to about $2 per kg for aircraft grade aluminum.

So 15x the price.  Add a little due to difficulty of machining Ti, subtract a bit for not having to prep the surface with SPAM.  Add a bit more for larger size.

Raw material costs are a good first order estimate of cost, especially for Elon's companies, since Elon likes to drive the cost as close to physics-based fundamental limits (ie raw material cost) as possible.

Offline vaporcobra

What is the cool patch for? Anyone?

John

Not sure. The guy taking those photos is an ardent collector of all kinds of patches, so probably not SpaceX related. This is pretty awesome, though. Caption said that it was an official uniform for the ASDS drivers. Off topic but partially on topic too.

Edit: Mods, feel free to remove if too off topic. I'm also happy to PM a link to the Instagram profile if anyone wants it, so long as you aren't planning on doxing a cool employee.
« Last Edit: 06/30/2017 01:56 am by vaporcobra »

Offline gongora

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official uniform for the ASDS drivers

Could start a whole new party thread for that one...

Also, we prefer to attach images instead of inserting a link.

Offline daver

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Cutting Aluminum with carbide.  1000 Surface Feet/ minute.  Chip load would be about .002 per tooth
Cutting Titanium  250 SF/minute.   .0015/tooth
The new grid fins are bigger so I'm guessing 6 times longer to machine.   


Close-up of returning grid fins from Matt Hartman's flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81789298@N05/sets
Are you sure those are the same??  They look like they did before launch...  8)
As they should, right? And I thought I heard that over time they would take on kind of a golden patina from oxidation...

That was a joke  ;)

And supposedly they should get more golden as heat + oxygen = oxidation which should increase it's temperature limit over time.  Also, their cleaning should be like cast iron cookware...which is basically, don't clean them.  Don't want to scrub that oxidation off.

On a slightly off-topic question...  I searched around but couldn't find what I was looking for.  Does anyone know or have a very educated guess as to how much an aluminum fin costs to make compared to the titanium fin?  I know it is quite a bit more (otherwise SpaceX would have used that from day 1) but I have just not seen a $ figure, just a 4X or 7X more type answer.
If I understood Elon's tweet from before the launch they are casting the titanium fins and then machining them to spec. I'd guess that they used a similar process for the aluminum fins. The titanium fins are slightly larger, maybe 20%? The machining work is probably more complicated because of scalloped edges, but is surely being done by CNC machines so it's just time on machine not more labor. That seems like a wash with adding SPAM to the Al fins. I can't recall seeing a weight estimate for the fins, but the cost for each should be reasonably approximated by weight per fin times cost of material plus maybe 10% for manufacturing costs? Pure titanium bar stock appears to be going for about $30 per kg compared to about $2 per kg for aircraft grade aluminum. I'm sure they can buy it cheaper at the quantities they are using but the cost difference should be reflected primarily in the cost difference of the material itself. Anybody got an estimate of grid fin weight?

Somebody feel free to correct me if my facts or logic is flawed.

Offline cppetrie

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SpaceX Falcon 9 (F9-B1036) West Coast JRTI return - Coverage
« Reply #56 on: 06/30/2017 01:59 am »
Cutting Aluminum with carbide.  1000 Surface Feet/ minute.  Chip load would be about .002 per tooth
Cutting Titanium  250 SF/minute.   .0015/tooth
The new grid fins are bigger so I'm guessing 6 times longer to machine.   
But the real question is does the longer machining time add cost. If it's being done by computerized machining gear, and it is almost certainly all computerized, the extra machining time may only marginally change cost. It slows down production, but you don't need to make very many either. A half dozen sets that get moved from rocket to rocket with virtually no refurb would satisfy their current demand.

Edit: snipped quotes
« Last Edit: 06/30/2017 02:01 am by cppetrie »

Offline daver

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I assume SpaceX would cut the grid fins in house.   They could be cut on a $80K Haas 3 axis, or a $1,000,000  Makino 5 axis.  Lots of variables.   The machine could be setup to cut unmanned or not.    SpaceX will reuse them many times so the upfront additional cost is probably meaningless.     

Offline cppetrie

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I assume SpaceX would cut the grid fins in house.   They could be cut on a $80K Haas 3 axis, or a $1,000,000  Makino 5 axis.  Lots of variables.   The machine could be setup to cut unmanned or not.    SpaceX will reuse them many times so the upfront additional cost is probably meaningless.   
They likely already have the cutter for making the aluminum ones unless the larger size required a larger machine so the differential cost between the two is not affected by the cost of the cutter.

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IIRC they said the fins are forged, not cast.
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Offline cppetrie

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IIRC they said the fins are forged, not cast.
Elon said forged when he first mentioned going to titanium but tweeted this prior to the launch.
Quote

Flying with larger & significantly upgraded hypersonic grid fins. Single piece cast & cut titanium. Can take reentry heat with no shielding.


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What is the cool patch for? Anyone?

John
it seemed like a rocket in a viewfinder? I was wondering that too actually.
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IIRC they said the fins are forged, not cast.
Elon said forged when he first mentioned going to titanium but tweeted this prior to the launch.
Quote

Flying with larger & significantly upgraded hypersonic grid fins. Single piece cast & cut titanium. Can take reentry heat with no shielding.


hmmm....   Cast, then forged, then milled?   Not unheard off...


But the "signature move" in such a sequence will be the forging.
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What is the cool patch for? Anyone?

John
This is the rocket that landed on a platform in a soviet film. Don't remember the name, but Elon tweeted a video showing that landing and an F9 ocean landing in parallel.

Offline cppetrie

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IIRC they said the fins are forged, not cast.
Elon said forged when he first mentioned going to titanium but tweeted this prior to the launch.
Quote

Flying with larger & significantly upgraded hypersonic grid fins. Single piece cast & cut titanium. Can take reentry heat with no shielding.


hmmm....   Cast, then forged, then milled?   Not unheard off...


But the "signature move" in such a sequence will be the forging.
Forging never made much sense to me for a structure with that depth and with that many holes in it. Forging is better for bending/molding stock material into complicated but mostly solid shapes or bending sheets into intricate shapes. Cut outs in flat stock work fine too, but this has significant depth to it. Casting always seemed like the way to go. Melt metal. Pour into mold of rough shape. Machine to final shape. Heat treat if needed. Done.

Online meekGee

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IIRC they said the fins are forged, not cast.
Elon said forged when he first mentioned going to titanium but tweeted this prior to the launch.
Quote

Flying with larger & significantly upgraded hypersonic grid fins. Single piece cast & cut titanium. Can take reentry heat with no shielding.


hmmm....   Cast, then forged, then milled?   Not unheard off...


But the "signature move" in such a sequence will be the forging.
Forging never made much sense to me for a structure with that depth and with that many holes in it. Forging is better for bending/molding stock material into complicated but mostly solid shapes or bending sheets into intricate shapes. Cut outs in flat stock work fine too, but this has significant depth to it. Casting always seemed like the way to go. Melt metal. Pour into mold of rough shape. Machine to final shape. Heat treat if needed. Done.


Titanium *usually* does not get heat treated IIRC.  What forging gets you is improved metallurgical structure over the as-cast material.

I obviously don't know what they do in practice, but you could cast an approximate shape (i.e. a similar grid), then forge into near-perfect shape and just touch off with milling where necessary.

I'm trying to think about the dies though, and it does get complicated.  Shrug. 
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May be I'm missing something obvious, but I wonder why mill forged titan? What would be gained by doing it?

otherwise, by milling, you just remove most of what you just forged...


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May be I'm missing something obvious, but I wonder why mill forged titan? What would be gained by doing it?

otherwise, by milling, you just remove most of what you just forged...
It would only be finish machining. Forge to 99%* of final specs and machine the last 1%*.

* percentages are for illustrative purposes only and not intended to represent actual percentages although I would guess they are decent approximations.

Offline Herb Schaltegger

May be I'm missing something obvious, but I wonder why mill forged titan? What would be gained by doing it?

otherwise, by milling, you just remove most of what you just forged...
It would only be finish machining. Forge to 99%* of final specs and machine the last 1%*.

* percentages are for illustrative purposes only and not intended to represent actual percentages although I would guess they are decent approximations.
Probably too difficult to forge the curved surfaces on each edge. Fairly easy to mill that part.
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Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged

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« Last Edit: 06/30/2017 01:26 pm by old_sellsword »

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Didn't realize that the booster ended up on the Port of Los Angeles Live Stream youtube channel after all .  Nothing exciting going on at the moment, but it's relaxing to have it up on a window on the side of my ultra-wide monitor :).

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Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged
Remember that when forging, no material is lost...  So if there was a tiny bit too much, it has nowhere to go, no matter how hard you pound on it.

You can leave a place for it to go, but then you need to mill it off, and while you're at it, you can finish off other details.
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Offline livingjw

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Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged

Didn't Elon say it was cast and machine finished? Is there some doubt? Casting should be plenty strong for this application.

John

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SpaceX Falcon 9 (F9-B1036) West Coast JRTI return - Coverage
« Reply #74 on: 06/30/2017 08:14 pm »
Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged

Didn't Elon say it was cast and machine finished? Is there some doubt? Casting should be plenty strong for this application.

John
Yes. I quoted his tweet from before the launch in a post higher up.

from: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43223.msg1696977#msg1696977

Quote

Flying with larger & significantly upgraded hypersonic grid fins. Single piece cast & cut titanium. Can take reentry heat with no shielding.


Edit: added link to post and Elon's tweet
« Last Edit: 06/30/2017 10:58 pm by cppetrie »

Offline RedSky

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Didn't realize that the booster ended up on the Port of Los Angeles Live Stream youtube channel after all

 Nothing exciting going on at the moment, but it's relaxing to have it up on a window on the side of my ultra-wide monitor :).

Does the camera view change?  If I remember on the map, the booster is way off to the left of the live image, in a different slip that is west of the main channel seen in the live view.

Offline Skylab

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Here you go, cppetrie!

Looks like they've figured out just what the aluminum fins will put up with. And almost found out if the stage can tolerate losing a fin midflight.
And really demonstrated why they needed to transition to the Titanium ones which still look brand new after flight.

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Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged

Didn't Elon say it was cast and machine finished? Is there some doubt? Casting should be plenty strong for this application.

John
He said both.  Earlier he called them "largest Ti forging".  Since casting can be very large, I think he did mean "forge"
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Offline Lars-J

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Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged

Didn't Elon say it was cast and machine finished? Is there some doubt? Casting should be plenty strong for this application.

John
He said both.  Earlier he called them "largest Ti forging".  Since casting can be very large, I think he did mean "forge"

I assume that this is contracted out? It seems unlikely that SpaceX are suddenly world class titanium forgers, but perhaps this is a capability they need.

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Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged

Didn't Elon say it was cast and machine finished? Is there some doubt? Casting should be plenty strong for this application.

John
He said both.  Earlier he called them "largest Ti forging".  Since casting can be very large, I think he did mean "forge"

I assume that this is contracted out? It seems unlikely that SpaceX are suddenly world class titanium forgers, but perhaps this is a capability they need.
My guess is yes, contracted.
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Offline cppetrie

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Thank you. Didn't realized that not all surfaces could be forged

Didn't Elon say it was cast and machine finished? Is there some doubt? Casting should be plenty strong for this application.

John
He said both.  Earlier he called them "largest Ti forging".  Since casting can be very large, I think he did mean "forge"
Castings in general can be huge. However, a search of the web suggests the foundry capable of making the largest Ti castings can make castings up to 500kg. Do we have any idea how large those grid fins are? These could still represent the largest Ti castings in the world while not being that large as castings go. The shape of the grid fins lends itself far more towards casting than forging.

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I assume that this is contracted out? It seems unlikely that SpaceX are suddenly world class titanium forgers, but perhaps this is a capability they need.
My guess is yes, contracted.
This is one of the advantages of working in the LA area - there are very competent shops for working with all sorts of materials relatively nearby.  Caltech, and I presume the other schools in the area, had an excellent internal machine shop, but no one shop can cover all needs.   When they needed a part they could not make themselves, they would contract it out, and were quite impressed with the expertise they could find (for a price, of course).

Offline CharlieWildman

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Sorry, this is way off topic.. Just a random thought.  Could the grid fins be 3D printed in the future?

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Sorry, this is way off topic.. Just a random thought.  Could the grid fins be 3D printed in the future?

Yes. But I don't think the shape is complex enough to bother doing it.

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I assume that this is contracted out? It seems unlikely that SpaceX are suddenly world class titanium forgers, but perhaps this is a capability they need.
My guess is yes, contracted.
This is one of the advantages of working in the LA area - there are very competent shops for working with all sorts of materials relatively nearby.  Caltech, and I presume the other schools in the area, had an excellent internal machine shop, but no one shop can cover all needs.   When they needed a part they could not make themselves, they would contract it out, and were quite impressed with the expertise they could find (for a price, of course).
Possibly.

I once worked on a science instrument that was hogged out of a large Ti billet.

Those are not as easy to come by as you'd think.. 
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Turns out that Titanium itself is really cheap right now. I know the vast majority of the costs are machining costs, but it still helps that Titanium is $3.50/kg right now instead of 10x that.
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Arnt a lot of titanium landing gear parts made in russia? Thats the biggest mass produced titanium object i can think of...

Offline cppetrie

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Turns out that Titanium itself is really cheap right now. I know the vast majority of the costs are machining costs, but it still helps that Titanium is $3.50/kg right now instead of 10x that.
Is that for pure titanium? Or titanium ore? I found that price the other day for ore but refined titanium was substantially more expensive. They would be using 99+% pure titanium to make these grid fins.

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Arnt a lot of titanium landing gear parts made in russia? Thats the biggest mass produced titanium object i can think of...
Actually the billet we ended up using, IIRC, came from a reserve that was set up for the landing gear of the SST, believe it or not.

Who'd have thunk..
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Offline Skylab

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Arnt a lot of titanium landing gear parts made in russia? Thats the biggest mass produced titanium object i can think of...
Actually the billet we ended up using, IIRC, came from a reserve that was set up for the landing gear of the SST, believe it or not.

Who'd have thunk..
Quick link to the whole SST titanium issue, then I'll be strictly on-topic.
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/the-titanium-gambit-3804526/

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Arnt a lot of titanium landing gear parts made in russia? Thats the biggest mass produced titanium object i can think of...
Actually the billet we ended up using, IIRC, came from a reserve that was set up for the landing gear of the SST, believe it or not.

Who'd have thunk..
Quick link to the whole SST titanium issue, then I'll be strictly on-topic.
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/the-titanium-gambit-3804526/
Interesting...  Funny how naive it all comes across.  Thx for the link.
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Turns out that Titanium itself is really cheap right now. I know the vast majority of the costs are machining costs, but it still helps that Titanium is $3.50/kg right now instead of 10x that.
Is that for pure titanium? Or titanium ore? I found that price the other day for ore but refined titanium was substantially more expensive. They would be using 99+% pure titanium to make these grid fins.
Youre right, I was wrong.
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Youre right, I was wrong.

Considering what passes for discourse these days, why does it shock me to see someone make such a basic, humble statement?  I need to stay away from the political news and just stick to scientific forums.

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Quote
Just visited Mr.  @Falcon9_rocket and @JRTIDroneShip PART 1

https://twitter.com/slc4_lz2/status/881326951536902144

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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@FalconGridFin  got removed (PART 2)

https://twitter.com/slc4_lz2/status/881327574693011456

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@FalconGridFin  got removed (PART 2)

https://twitter.com/slc4_lz2/status/881327574693011456

Hmm, with the grid fins gone, it looks like it's about to make a long, cross-country trek rather than go right back to Hawthorne.

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Welcome back, #Falcon9! Cannot believe how close I am standing to this rocket right now. She is beautiful! 😍🚀🌅💕 #SpaceX #LosAngeles

https://twitter.com/taliaeliana/status/881360754766528512

Offline rsdavis9

Quote
@FalconGridFin  got removed (PART 2)

https://twitter.com/slc4_lz2/status/881327574693011456

Hmm, with the grid fins gone, it looks like it's about to make a long, cross-country trek rather than go right back to Hawthorne.

I assume the grid fins and possibly legs interfere with the transport cradle positions?
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

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It's all in the details. 🚀🔥

#SpaceX #Falcon9

https://twitter.com/taliaeliana/status/881766875796971521

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« Last Edit: 07/07/2017 09:36 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

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At least three leg pistons removed.
Does that represent a change in operations from how the legs were removed previously?  I seem to recall that in the past the whole leg was taken off and then closed up.  As opposed to the piston being removed while still leaving the exterior frames attached.  Or am I just mistaken/misremembering?
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Offline old_sellsword

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At least three leg pistons removed.
Does that represent a change in operations from how the legs were removed previously?  I seem to recall that in the past the whole leg was taken off and then closed up.  As opposed to the piston being removed while still leaving the exterior frames attached.  Or am I just mistaken/misremembering?

They've done it this way from the very beginning.

Also, I'm not quite sure of this community's stance on content from PTZtv, so apologies if it's not allowed.

Mod Edit: They have given us grief before about our coverage using theirwebcam, so removed the content.
« Last Edit: 07/15/2017 10:36 am by Ronsmytheiii »

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