Author Topic: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)  (Read 5762 times)

Offline john smith 19

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Re: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)
« Reply #40 on: 05/19/2017 10:20 AM »
A reasonable perspective through the first 5 Falcon 9 flights.

Increasingly not so afterwards. Merlin 1D is thrust-to-weight ratio optimized to all heck (smashing previous records for any liquid engine). Mass fraction is increasingly good. I mean, they're the first group to deeply subcool rocket propellants (some Russian engines use somewhat subcooled LOx, but not nearly as deeply subcooled) for operational rockets. They stuck their COPVs in the subcooled LOx tank (which is basically the complete opposite of being wary of optimization). They don't gently land F9 like New Shepard but instead hoverslam it. ITS takes this to a whole new level (Raptor, the most insane rocket engine ever, and landing a ridiculously over powered rocket on just a launch cradle?? Are they insane??), and I'm certain the ITS ECLSS they're working on will be no different.
All of which they could do with confidence based on their experience of those first 5 flights.
Quote from: Robotbeat
Dragon will fly with life support. That's your ECLSS v1.0. No one ever suggested the ITS ECLSS wouldn't have margins (so I'm not sure where that comment is aimed at) since it's going to have a smaller crew to start out with, but I sincerely doubt it's anything other than an attempt at a significant improvement over the State of the Art.
ITS will be a step change over Dragon in terms of active (not stand by) life time and size. I expect the ITS ECLSS to have very wide margins on first flight a)Because to support a full load of 100 passengers and b) Because it will not have a full 100 passengers to begin with.
What I meant by margin is that as they gain operating experience SX will relax just how high a margin they keep to support the full 100 passengers, not just the margin due to the early crews being much smaller than full capacity.

AFAIK this process, relaxing the operating margin, has been a key part of how Merlin was designed. In principle a large part of Merlins upgrade could just have been down to larger diameter pipes feeding the GG, the CC and the turbo pumps, once all the data collected from previous flights showed they were safe to do so. No radical redesign needed (although I believe mfg methods for large parts of Merlin have changed quite a bit).
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Online Kaputnik

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Re: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)
« Reply #41 on: 05/19/2017 11:20 AM »
Some of these posts seems to suggest that the first few ITS flights would have a dozen people rattling about in an almost empty cabin built for 100.
That seems highly unlikely. IMHO the first crewed flights will be hybrid crew+cargo vehicles. Probably much more utilitarian than the eventual passenger vehicle. They won't want to waste a single litre of space, nor a single kg of mass. Hence the ECLSS may be quite different, at least in scale.
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Online guckyfan

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Re: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)
« Reply #42 on: 05/19/2017 12:57 PM »
Some of these posts seems to suggest that the first few ITS flights would have a dozen people rattling about in an almost empty cabin built for 100.
That seems highly unlikely. IMHO the first crewed flights will be hybrid crew+cargo vehicles. Probably much more utilitarian than the eventual passenger vehicle. They won't want to waste a single litre of space, nor a single kg of mass. Hence the ECLSS may be quite different, at least in scale.

What kind of flight trajectory do you expect? If they fly slow they could take a large amount of payload. But I think they will stick to a fast transfer for crew. They will fly most of the cargo on one or two separate cargo flights. So no more than 200t of cargo and it would be empty. Even if they take more I don't think they will approach the max. 450t but rather the 300t ITS can lift to LEO without adding cargo in orbit.

Online AncientU

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Re: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)
« Reply #43 on: 05/19/2017 01:02 PM »
Some of these posts seems to suggest that the first few ITS flights would have a dozen people rattling about in an almost empty cabin built for 100.
That seems highly unlikely. IMHO the first crewed flights will be hybrid crew+cargo vehicles. Probably much more utilitarian than the eventual passenger vehicle. They won't want to waste a single litre of space, nor a single kg of mass. Hence the ECLSS may be quite different, at least in scale.

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Offline DOCinCT

Some of these posts seems to suggest that the first few ITS flights would have a dozen people rattling about in an almost empty cabin built for 100.
That seems highly unlikely. IMHO the first crewed flights will be hybrid crew+cargo vehicles. Probably much more utilitarian than the eventual passenger vehicle. They won't want to waste a single litre of space, nor a single kg of mass. Hence the ECLSS may be quite different, at least in scale.
If you think USN Virginia Class submarine aesthetics with about 32 crew on a 6 month voyage and 18 months on the surface you get something like this for the non-flight crew decks and commissary/recreation deck.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)
« Reply #45 on: 05/21/2017 03:04 PM »
Some of these posts seems to suggest that the first few ITS flights would have a dozen people rattling about in an almost empty cabin built for 100.
That seems highly unlikely. IMHO the first crewed flights will be hybrid crew+cargo vehicles. Probably much more utilitarian than the eventual passenger vehicle. They won't want to waste a single litre of space, nor a single kg of mass. Hence the ECLSS may be quite different, at least in scale.
If you think USN Virginia Class submarine aesthetics with about 32 crew on a 6 month voyage and 18 months on the surface you get something like this for the non-flight crew decks and commissary/recreation deck.
Are you assuming some kind of artificial gravity? Yes it will have to land on Mars but during it's voyage accessing the ceiling will be much easier.

Given SX's fondness for building a core vehicle and then stretching it to give new capabilities you might like to consider a core vehicle with fixed bridge and (small) crew area with the rest being uncommitted storage or "hold".   :)
The hold area can then be configured depending on a mix of human or cargo levels and can accommodate some very large single structures (provided they can be assembled within the hold and be operated there after landing).

On Earth this has been done by cargo airlines branching out into budget tour operators by installing palletised seating, galley and toilet facilities in their freighter deck, as well as a Scandinavian multi purpose military vessel design with a large open deck (IE an open plan area, not a top deck with new fittings on it) that can accommodate various mission modules.
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)
« Reply #46 on: 05/21/2017 05:02 PM »
It seems Honeywell and Paragon SDC have partnered for  creating a deep space ECLSS

https://www.honeywell.com/newsroom/pressreleases/2017/05/honeywell-and-paragon-to-create-life-support-technology-for-future-nasa-space-missions

Quote
PHOENIX, May 1, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- Honeywell (NYSE: HON) and Paragon Space Development Corporation have announced a teaming agreement that will change the way astronauts experience life in space. The two companies will design, build, test and apply environmental control and life support systems for future human NASA and commercial programs.

Longer duration, human-exploration missions are planned for the future, but there is no easy way to replenish resources such as oxygen and water in space. NASA's future human-exploration missions will require an integrated and highly efficient system for life support and thermal control. Paragon's focus on evolving water and thermal technologies complements Honeywell's new developments in air revitalization technologies, both of which are essential parts of the spacecraft needed for NASA's deep space goals.

"A renewed interest in developing a Deep Space Habitat needed for reaching the Moon and Mars, continued experimentation aboard the International Space Station, and a desire to push the limits of unmanned flights make this a remarkable time in space exploration. Unmanned achievements are now giving way to long-distance and long-duration human missions. The technology developed by Honeywell and Paragon will give humans the opportunity to explore space for longer periods than before," said Marty Sheber, vice president, Space, Honeywell Aerospace. "Honeywell has a long legacy of providing mission-critical environmental control and life support systems (ECLSS), including being the provider of critical parts of the system currently used on the International Space Station. That heritage, coupled with Paragon's focus on innovative and emerging ECLSS technologies, provides a complementary team to develop technology capable of supporting humans on their longer explorations into space."
>

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Offline Jcc

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Re: ITS Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS)
« Reply #47 on: 06/19/2017 11:35 PM »
I think a number of smaller, identical ECLSS systems is better than one big one, just like the many Raptor engines to provide fail safe thrust. There is something to say for having an equal number of dissimilar systems, but there is trade-off in terms of development cost, training to maintain multiple systems, keeping spare parts, etc.

Tags: ITS ECLSS