Author Topic: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?  (Read 3266 times)

Offline Landfound

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #20 on: 03/27/2017 10:09 PM »
The "flaw" is the point - there's not very many people who can afford to spend the money on spaceflight.

Where is the reduction in price by the various numbers you are pulling from the void coming from???
The numbers you posted.

30 million plus category 200,000

100 million plus 20,000

You were pulling numbers out of thin air and declaring the price will be reduced by that much.

How is the price being reduced?

I'm saying that demand will increase if it's reduced.

In this context no one is decreasing the cost.

they are increasing the supply by making it more affordable via tax exemptions.

Additionally by sending people who atleast in theory have the means to invest in further space technology can.


If my ticket cost 30 million and with tax benefits drops to 10 million, you'll get spending to increase by a factor of 10 assuming that the proportion of people that can afford it increases by a factor of 10 which your own numbers support.

If you had 7 doners willing to pay at 30 million logically you'd get 70 with the tax credit.

So instead of the government paying 210 million for 7 astronauts to go you pay 1.4 billion for 70.

Of course the purpose of them going isn't for the sake of them just going and taking a look.

It's a way of enticing people to invest in their own back yard.

In other words it's getting the elon's of tomorrow to choose spacex over tesla.





 
« Last Edit: 03/27/2017 10:19 PM by Landfound »

Online pippin

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #21 on: 03/27/2017 10:11 PM »

Canada didn't take over the film industry by being warm.


And the effects obviously haven't been to _anybody's_ benefit
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/no-hollywood-ending-visual-effects-industry/
I don't remotely see the relation
You brought up the film industry subsidies as an example, not me.
Subsidies like that generally don't work. They only create a race to the bottom and do _not_ increase the market size because there are so many other, more important variables. Price elasticity of demand is extremely low.
Canada didn't increase the overall market size for movies, they are now just being shot elsewhere.

For lunar tourism there's only a handful of people who can afford this but except for being super-rich they also have to be
* pretty fit and healthy
* not personally risk averse (plus have families sharing that attitude)
* willing to (and having the time) spend a year or so training
* non-claustrophobic
* and for your case might not yet have found any of the other gazillion of tax evasion schemes out there which are plentifully available at that kind of net worth.

And probably a hundred other things.
Given all that, the taxes they would save ar probably down there on place 284 of the list of decision items when choosing to sign up for a lunar tourism flight.

This proposal is just senselessly throwing money at people who already have enough of it.
« Last Edit: 03/27/2017 10:21 PM by pippin »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #22 on: 03/27/2017 10:15 PM »
The "flaw" is the point - there's not very many people who can afford to spend the money on spaceflight.

Where is the reduction in price by the various numbers you are pulling from the void coming from???
The numbers you posted.

30 million plus category 200,000

100 million plus 20,000

You were pulling numbers out of thin air and declaring the price will be reduced by that much.

How is the price being reduced?

I'm saying that demand will increase if it's reduced.

In this context no one is decreasing the cost.

they are increasing the supply by making it more affordable via tax exemptions.

Additionally by sending people who atleast in theory have the means to invest in further space technology can.

The demand might increase if the price is reduced, but that's a. not a given and b. nowhere is there a guarantee that the price will be reduced.

If no one is decreasing the cost, then the demand will not increase.

The price of the space travel isn't changing, you're just making a tax break for the wealthy people who go.

c. no guarantee they will further invest in space travel technology.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Landfound

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #23 on: 03/27/2017 10:23 PM »

You brought up the film industry subsidies as an example, not me.
Subsidies like that generally don't work. They only create a race to the bottom and do _not_ increase the market size because there are so many other, more important variables. Price elasticity of demand is extremely low.
Canada didn't increase the overall market size for movies, they are now just being shot elsewhere.


In the film industries case I agree the time for it being needed is long past due.

As I said you control this program.

It's not a magical source of money.

It's a directed effort to expand investment.

Online pippin

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #24 on: 03/27/2017 10:24 PM »

You brought up the film industry subsidies as an example, not me.
Subsidies like that generally don't work. They only create a race to the bottom and do _not_ increase the market size because there are so many other, more important variables. Price elasticity of demand is extremely low.
Canada didn't increase the overall market size for movies, they are now just being shot elsewhere.


In the film industries case I agree the time for it being needed is long past due.

As I said you control this program.

It's not a magical source of money.

It's a directed effort to expand investment.
And it doesn't work.
It's just a useless waste of money.

Offline Silmfeanor

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #25 on: 03/27/2017 10:27 PM »
OP, what is the goal of a) this thread and b) the proposal, if implemented?

a) - do you want criticism, reasons why it might be a bad idea, and are you considering them - or are you positing this as a great proposal, of which you are convinced, and thus should be immediatly implemented. Which leads to...

b) - what is the goal of the proposal - to increase spaceflight? - then why not give it to a scholarship, or a lottery to fly some random person, or a tv program, or education, or outreach, or any other way to increase interest in space. I am sure a tax break for somebody already rich - as has been pointed out before to you - is quite unlikely to be the best way, as you are targetting the group of the rich ( a small group) who are interested in space (an even smaller group) but who dont have enough money to pay for it ( again smaller), but would be swayed by this ' 1 million a day tax break'  (once again, even smaller).

Why not directly subsidize the company? Or give them zero-rent loans? Or reduced paperwork? (note - please dont focus on these specific proposals, but the bigger points).

Offline Landfound

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #26 on: 03/27/2017 10:31 PM »

The demand might increase if the price is reduced, but that's a. not a given and b. nowhere is there a guarantee that the price will be reduced.
No nothing is guaranteed in life if your picking topics that are sure bets give up on space right now. It's not that kind of thing.



If no one is decreasing the cost, then the demand will not increase.
Call it increasing the affordability if you want.

The price of the space travel isn't changing, you're just making a tax break for the wealthy people who go.
Not in one single step, but its about expanding the market for space flight without praying nasa gets a budget bump.

c. no guarantee they will further invest in space travel technology.

No but the best evidence we have from the last 15 years is it doesn't come without a helping hand.

Online Coastal Ron

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #27 on: 03/27/2017 10:36 PM »
I'm saying that demand will increase if it's reduced.

That is false logic.

For instance, the cost for scuba diving is well within the abilities of many people, but relatively few of those capable of doing scuba do it.  Same with golf.  And if I told my wife that we could ride the fastest, tallest roller coaster for free, she would not do it - in fact she would pay NOT to ride it.  Lower prices does not equal increased demand for everything.

Quote
In this context no one is decreasing the cost.

Literally, who cares if the price does not go down?

Quote
Additionally by sending people who atleast in theory have the means to invest in further space technology can.

Tourism is not what opens up frontiers, commerce does.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online pippin

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #28 on: 03/27/2017 10:39 PM »
Tourism is not what opens up frontiers, commerce does.
+1

Offline Landfound

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #29 on: 03/27/2017 10:42 PM »

a) - do you want criticism, reasons why it might be a bad idea, and are you considering them - or are you positing this as a great proposal, of which you are convinced, and thus should be immediatly implemented. Which leads to...
More curious to why it's not directly talked about. Beyond one word answers like people don't like tax cuts, rich people don't invest money.


b) - what is the goal of the proposal - to increase spaceflight? - then why not give it to a scholarship, or a lottery to fly some random person, or a tv program, or education, or outreach, or any other way to increase interest in space. I am sure a tax break for somebody already rich - as has been pointed out before to you - is quite unlikely to be the best way, as you are targetting the group of the rich ( a small group) who are interested in space (an even smaller group) but who dont have enough money to pay for it ( again smaller), but would be swayed by this ' 1 million a day tax break'  (once again, even smaller).
The goal is to increase investment in space and drum up demand for goods off world.

Give business to bigelow areospace, moon base, human launchers etc and more importantly stir up interest in otherwise unknown avenues.

The problem with a lottery etc is that those people are incapable of reinvesting.

If I'm a C.E.O of a manufacturing company I'm might be far more inclined to invest in a research lab for zero g fabrication of parts. If I'll a film producer I might bring a few actor friend of mine next year when I return.

It's chasing the spinoff's that I think we should be going after.
 



Why not directly subsidize the company? Or give them zero-rent loans? Or reduced paperwork? (note - please dont focus on these specific proposals, but the bigger points).
Because I believe it's easier to give tax cuts to someone than to get them to pay more to a nasa budget.

Also with a subsidy people get dependent which causes inherent waste.

With a tax credit I believe money may potentially be spent more efficiently.
« Last Edit: 03/27/2017 10:44 PM by Landfound »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #30 on: 03/27/2017 10:48 PM »
I'm not sure that you realize that this tax break (for the customer!) won't help lower the cost of access to space in any way, shape, or form.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Landfound

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #31 on: 03/27/2017 10:52 PM »
That is false logic.

For instance, the cost for scuba diving is well within the abilities of many people, but relatively few of those capable of doing scuba do it.  Same with golf.  And if I told my wife that we could ride the fastest, tallest roller coaster for free, she would not do it - in fact she would pay NOT to ride it.  Lower prices does not equal increased demand for everything.

When did I claim it did.

It doesn't for everything but you can bet your ass that it does for space.


Literally, who cares if the price does not go down?

They don't directly go down, however over time they will if economies of scale can kick in.

Tourism is not what opens up frontiers, commerce does.

Commerce doesn't happen where nobody goes.

The idea of the rich billionaire going to space and wanting to make a hotdog stand isn't that he's gonna sell it to himself but that he's attempting to enriches the experience of the person coming after him.

The commercial value isn't automatically what can someone pull out of a place, but their lifestyle while they are getting it and if they can make money while there.
« Last Edit: 03/27/2017 10:54 PM by Landfound »

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #32 on: 03/27/2017 11:17 PM »
Bad Idea. Just the mention of giving tax breaks to help a handful of multi-millionaires get cheaper joy rides to space would bring negative attention to space tourism and calls to do the exact opposite, to heavily tax such flights. This can't be portrayed in the same light as a tax deduction for charitable donations after all.

Space tourism needs better technology to grow. SpaceX and Blue Origin recognize this and are putting the bulk of their money and effort into new technology rather than lobbying for favorable taxation for space tourists. Since  technology capable of making spaceflight cheap is the fundamental barrier, it would be much more fruitful to give tax incentives for money spent developing innovative space technology or some public-private partnerships where the government matches a certain percentage of funds to private R&D of innovative space technology. Or the government could even act as an 'anchor tenant', buying launch capacity and cargo/propellant supply in bulk, therefore allowing providers achieve economies of scale and charge less to private customers.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." R.P.Feynman

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #33 on: 03/27/2017 11:19 PM »
To clarify: If a trip to space costs $40 million, but you get a $X-million tax break for going, that trip to space still costs $40 million.

The market has not opened up any. The people who could not afford to pay $40 million to go to space still can't afford to pay $40 million to go to space.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #34 on: 03/27/2017 11:32 PM »
Is this an "April fools" thread?? ???
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Offline topo334

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #35 on: 03/27/2017 11:34 PM »
To me this idea makes no sense, unless there is a pressing need for people to travel to orbit for a specific reason such as building something. Perhaps tax credits might be an inducement to attract workers for a dangerous job or to repel scaly bloodthirsty aliens. Actually the U.S has  at various times used the same idea for military in combat zones, but billionaires have more tax breaks than the rest of us can afford as it is! Clean cup! Move down!

Online Coastal Ron

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #36 on: 03/28/2017 12:41 AM »
It doesn't for everything but you can bet your ass that it does for space.

Space is literally nothing.  The few tourists that have gone to space went to a destination in space - the ISS.  So it's not "space" that is the draw per se, but the experience while in space that is worth the money being paid.

For the two individuals that are paying SpaceX to send them around the Moon, they are not spending the money in order to live inside of a Dragon spacecraft for 6 days, but to make history by being the first two private citizens to go around our Moon.  I don't see the same level of demand for being passengers #13 & 14, since history won't remember them very well, and the ride really won't be that spectacular.

Quote
Literally, who cares if the price does not go down?

They don't directly go down, however over time they will if economies of scale can kick in.

I hang out with a lot of entrepreneurs who like to see evidence of demand to prove there is a market, and they don't really care about the cost side of things.  For instance, the two individuals that are buying the ride around our Moon may not have been price sensitive, but were waiting until a private company was close enough to providing a safe enough transportation system for their needs.  So for all we know there is only a market for two people that want to go around our Moon in a spacecraft launched from Earth.

Quote
Tourism is not what opens up frontiers, commerce does.

Commerce doesn't happen where nobody goes.

Tourism doesn't happen where nobody goes.

I have some insight into the tourism market, and what these two individuals are doing is not "tourism", they are adventurers.  And adventures like doing things that are unique, not what others have done (which is what tourists do).

So to circle back to the original topic, no, tax exemptions are not needed, especially since the private market has already been pursuing innovative space transportation systems without direct government involvement.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Lar

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Re: Giving tax exemptions to space tourist?
« Reply #37 on: 03/28/2017 01:00 AM »
Moved to Space Policy ( my other choice was lock and delete)
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