Author Topic: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request  (Read 31000 times)

Offline AncientU

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #40 on: 03/18/2017 11:04 AM »
...

In regards to cutting the education budget.

Quote
“Aerospace is a growing sector that provides good quality jobs here in the US. We want to get students from all backgrounds trained in these fields,” says Larson. “STEM education is critical to our long-term competitiveness as a country, and it's interesting in a year where a movie like Hidden Figures was on the national stage that the administration would de-emphasize the role NASA plays in getting kids excited about space.”


Results are important, not just intentions. 

How much more effective can NASA be at inspiring youth by either, 1. doing something inspirational, or 2. talking about doing something inspirational.

The administration is choosing to use NASA money for #1. 
(they could have chosen to cut NASA by 20%)
« Last Edit: 03/18/2017 11:08 AM by AncientU »
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Offline Star One

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #41 on: 03/18/2017 02:07 PM »
...

In regards to cutting the education budget.

Quote
“Aerospace is a growing sector that provides good quality jobs here in the US. We want to get students from all backgrounds trained in these fields,” says Larson. “STEM education is critical to our long-term competitiveness as a country, and it's interesting in a year where a movie like Hidden Figures was on the national stage that the administration would de-emphasize the role NASA plays in getting kids excited about space.”


Results are important, not just intentions. 

How much more effective can NASA be at inspiring youth by either, 1. doing something inspirational, or 2. talking about doing something inspirational.

The administration is choosing to use NASA money for #1. 
(they could have chosen to cut NASA by 20%)

That's an incredibly feeble defence of the cut as you know very well that NASA will not see any of that cut money. So that's not like they even have the fig leaf of saying the money was going to be invested in other elements of NASA. It's also going to mean that it's likely less people are going to go in the related STEM areas.

Offline AncientU

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #42 on: 03/18/2017 02:28 PM »
Their budget is only cut 0.8% in the proposal.
Actually more funding for projects(building stuff) if headcount reductions for the eliminated lines are realized.  If headcount remains unchanged as has happened repeatedly when programs ended, then you are right.

I'm not defending the cut, mostly saying that NASA has the means to inspire without this function.

Examples:  HST wasn't preceded by the uninspired 'education' outreach... it just launched, (got fixed,) and then published the images.  Presto!  Education, inspiration.  New Horizons cost 0.3% of NASA's budget over a 15 year timespan ($0.7B end-to-end) -- sent back pictures -- inspiration.

(If NASA wants to contribute to STEM in a more fundamental way, they could stop using American Standard units and push for a Nation-wide transition to metric.)
« Last Edit: 03/18/2017 02:47 PM by AncientU »
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #43 on: 03/18/2017 03:05 PM »
I think that if you're going to discuss the education office at NASA, it might help if you looked into what it actually does instead of writing in generalities like "inspiration" or "contribute to STEM."

Offline AncientU

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #44 on: 03/18/2017 03:46 PM »
I think that if you're going to discuss the education office at NASA, it might help if you looked into what it actually does instead of writing in generalities like "inspiration" or "contribute to STEM."

Every other activity has 'inspire' or STEM in it.
That's apparently what they think their job is.

Example:
Quote
NASA Invites You to Create James Webb Space Telescope-inspired Art

How?

    Browse through our images and videos and see what inspires you.
    Create art! (Note: this is not limited to art you can hang on a wall.)
    Share it with us on social media.

Why?

In November 2016, a small group of artists was selected to visit NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, to see the James Webb Space Telescope in person, and to be inspired to create art. They have been busy ever since, producing amazing work that we are presenting for exhibit during Spring 2017 at the Goddard Visitor Center (date TBA).

Their offerings include painting, poetry, sculpting, textiles, woodworking, music, silk screening, 3-D design, jewelry, posters, tattooing and letterpress printing.

Though we were only able to physically accommodate a small number of artists, we were so impressed by the number of talented people who were interested in participating. We want to offer more artists a chance to participate virtually.

Talking about it instead of doing it... there is nothing 'inspirational' about a telescope that is sitting in a cleanroom in Maryland, ten years (and many billions of dollars) after it was supposed to be in orbit doing science.  The self-indulgence/hubris of this flavor of 'education' deserved to be defunded.

Launch JWST, prove that it works, send back pictures/data (on the most distant galaxies ever observed, or the composition of a habitable planet atmosphere, for instance)... inspiration.


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Offline Blackstar

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #45 on: 03/18/2017 06:20 PM »


Every other activity has 'inspire' or STEM in it.
That's apparently what they think their job is.

You're missing my point. They have specific projects and programs, like grants that people apply to and projects that send money to people to perform defined activities. Look that up and see SPECIFICALLY what they do. Otherwise, this discussion is like somebody sitting at the bar and saying "I hate tooth decay!" and somebody else yelling "I do too!" and a third person saying "I don't think tooth decay is all that bad..."

UPDATE: Because I was feeling less lazy than usual I went to the NASA Education Office website and called up an alphabetical list of their projects:

https://www.nasa.gov/offices/education/programs/descriptions/All_Alpha.html

Here are a few:

Aeronautics Academy
[Students Higher Education]
[Available: Nationally]
This U.S. college student opportunity offers intense training in aeronautics that includes research, leadership development, and broad exposure to the nation's aeronautics enterprise.


Airborne Research Experiences for Educators and Students
[Educators Grades 5-12 & Students Higher Education]
[Available Nationally]
NASA offers the perfect package of adventure and career development. Teachers earn graduate level credits while spending six weeks in California as part of a residential science research program that includes flying on a NASA aircraft.


Applied Physics Laboratory Internship Project
[Students Higher Education]
[Available: Nationally]
The NASA APL Internship project is a 10-week summer internship at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory for students interested in civil and/or defense space projects.


Astro Camp
[Students Grades K-8]
[Available: Nationally]
Astro Camp is an exciting, week-long mission for children located in Bay St. Louis, MS. Each year, it has activities centered around a new space exploration theme.


C

Caltech Postdoctoral Scholars at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory
[Students Higher Education]
[Available: Nationally & Internationally]
Opportunities for research positions provide significant training and professional growth for future scientific and technological leaders.


Center for Astronomy Education
[Educators Higher Education]
[Available: Nationally]
The Center for Astronomy Education is a professional development project for instructors of the introductory astronomy course, with emphasis on community colleges.


Community College Aerospace Scholars
[Students Higher Education]
[Available: Texas]
Funded by the Texas legislature, CAS is an interactive online learning experience highlighted by a two-day experience at Johnson Space Center. Selected students are encouraged to study math, science, engineering and computer science by interacting with engineers at JSC.

Consortium for Undergraduate Research Experience
[Students Higher Education]
[Available: CA]
CURE is a year-round research internship project for underrepresented minority and women undergraduates in the Los Angeles area. CURE matches students with mentors at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Caltech in a real research experience.
« Last Edit: 03/18/2017 09:05 PM by Blackstar »

Offline Star One

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #46 on: 03/20/2017 07:47 PM »
Quote
Jonathan Amos‏ @BBCAmos

Nasa EO chief Mike Freilich at #Banff #Canada suggests DSCOVR's Earth-facing data could simply be stored but not analysed under FY18 cut

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/843889088507920385

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #47 on: 03/24/2017 01:26 AM »
« Last Edit: 03/24/2017 01:27 AM by yg1968 »

Offline AncientU

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #48 on: 03/24/2017 09:26 AM »
Quote
Jonathan Amos‏ @BBCAmos

Nasa EO chief Mike Freilich at #Banff #Canada suggests DSCOVR's Earth-facing data could simply be stored but not analysed under FY18 cut

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCAmos/status/843889088507920385

Just serve it to the public and let them do their pleasure. 
Paid for it already... (most of it, anyway)
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #49 on: 03/24/2017 10:06 PM »
Raw data from an instrument without some kind of analysis is very nearly the same as noise.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline AncientU

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #50 on: 03/25/2017 10:06 AM »
Raw data from an instrument without some kind of analysis is very nearly the same as noise.

With an adequate data model, and maybe even a basic pipeline to bootstrap from, the data will be reduced and used.  The science community, private enterprise, and interested private individuals have the tools.
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Offline Orbiter

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #51 on: 03/25/2017 12:19 PM »
FWIW

Attended space missions: STS-114, STS-124, STS-128, STS-135, Atlas V "Curiosity", Delta IV Heavy NROL-15, Atlas V MUOS-2, Delta IV Heavy NROL-37, SpaceX CRS-9, SpaceX JCSAT-16, Atlas V GOES-R, SpaceX SES-11.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #52 on: 03/25/2017 02:47 PM »
FWIW

Well, that was odd if that was the entire weekly update, since there were other important things that happened too (and didn't happen) that would interest our nation.

It's an interesting contrast here too since Trump is embracing a space program he inherited, even though the legislation he signed doesn't really change the direction of NASA.  But that is a President's prerogative to take credit for whatever is happening in our nation that is going right, and in this case tugging on a lot of heart strings from what has happened in the past.

For NASA though it's not enough to just keep doing what those before you have done, because there are serious mismatches between goals and budgets that are set to collide just after Trump's first term in office, so time will tell whether he steps up to fix those before it's too late...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline AncientU

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #53 on: 03/25/2017 10:05 PM »
He's laying groundwork for the next phase...  that is more presidential text on the space program than the last several administrations combined.
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #54 on: 03/26/2017 06:12 AM »
He's laying groundwork for the next phase...  that is more presidential text on the space program than the last several administrations combined.

Not that I remember.  Clinton, Bush and Obama put a lot of political capital into space, and Trump has yet to do that.

Maybe he will, and it's still early in his term, but so far he hasn't...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Proponent

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #55 on: 03/26/2017 12:30 PM »
He's laying groundwork for the next phase...  that is more presidential text on the space program than the last several administrations combined.

Not that I remember.  Clinton, Bush and Obama put a lot of political capital into space, and Trump has yet to do that.

I agree.  Obama, for example, went to KSC twice and spoke both times.  He even took the political risk of visiting the first Falcon 9 on the pad:  had that rocket had failed on its inaugural flight, as it very well might have, we'd have been reminded over and over again that he'd been there.  He and Bush both personally announced major space-policy proposals (ARM and VSE).

Trump, on the other hand, gives a pep talk (and a surprisingly good one, in my opinion) with no specifics whatsoever.  It's been a very bad week for Trump:  this is probably just his way of trying to change the subject.

Had I  composed the video on Trump's behalf, I would have avoided the clip from the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project (3:55):  he has enough trouble with allegations of colluding with the Russians as it is!

There is enormous irony in Trump's closing line (4:30):  "We are truly a great place to be."  Here Trump is lifting one of Hilary Clinton's campaign lines: “America never stopped being great.”!

Quote
Maybe he will, and it's still early in his term, but so far he hasn't...

Yes, he may.  Signs are against it.  First of all, he is proposing to cut NASA's budget.  Compared to what he proposes for the rest of non-defense discretionary spending, the cut is small, but it is a cut, not an increase.

More significantly, Trump has transmitted a consistent negative message about space, from the campaign trail, where he said that filling potholes was more important, to the last week's signing of the 2017 NASA authorization, where he said, in response to Rep. Culberson's remark about creating an Interplanetary Highway System, (6:00).



Offline AncientU

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #56 on: 03/26/2017 03:48 PM »
...
First of all, he is proposing to cut NASA's budget.
...

We're not going anywhere unless NASA learns to do more with the NINETEEN BILLION dollars it has available every year.  Do you really(!!!) think NASA would actually do anything exploration-wise if its budget was raised 5%, 10%, 20%?  This might help SLS/Orion be less behind, but not much else.  NASA-philes seem to think doubling the NASA human space flight budget is what is needed to get the current program off the ground.

IMO, that would be good money after bad.
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #57 on: 03/26/2017 03:54 PM »
A flat budget is a cut, some folks still don't get that...
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #58 on: 03/26/2017 03:57 PM »
More significantly, Trump has transmitted a consistent negative message about space, from the campaign trail, where he said that filling potholes was more important, to the last week's signing of the 2017 NASA authorization, where he said, in response to Rep. Culberson's remark about creating an Interplanetary Highway System, "First we want to fix the highways, need to fix the highways.  Got to fix the highways."[/url] (6:00).

For those that want to watch the clip actually starts at 5:45 to hear the whole statement from Rep. Culberson and Trump's response (i.e. "First we want to fix the highways...").

Also, just prior to that, Trump shook hands with Senator Nelson after Senator Nelson described that commercial space was supporting LEO, and that NASA was going on to Mars.  That could be interpreted as an endorsement of that plan.

There are many reports regarding the AHCA vote failure that Trump was not involved in the details of what was going on, and that he was pretty hands-off.  Of course he never has had to worry about finding doctors and worrying about coverage and costs like most Americans, and he has stated that he is a "Big Picture" kind of person.

I only point that out to show that even with signature issues that he ran his campaign on, that if it's not something he already had experience with (i.e. constructing buildings for instance) that he won't spend the time to become knowledgeable about the topic.  Prior Presidents all spent time with large briefing books on topical subjects, and even Presidents I may not have liked were able to articulate important points about many subjects when interviewed.  I don't expect Trump to become articulate with the important points and issues about NASA and space.

Which means that if the National Space Council is reconstituted with V.P. Pence at it's head, that we should really be looking to V.P. Pence for indications of where the administration will be pointing NASA.  That all we can and should expect from Trump will be platitudes, but no actionable details.

My $0.02
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: NASA FY 2018 Budget Request
« Reply #59 on: 03/26/2017 04:12 PM »
He's laying groundwork for the next phase...  that is more presidential text on the space program than the last several administrations combined.

Not that I remember.  Clinton, Bush and Obama put a lot of political capital into space, and Trump has yet to do that.

Maybe he will, and it's still early in his term, but so far he hasn't...
Does he still any political capital left after his first two months of fails? If he still spends like he thinks he does they may come back "NSF" and I don't mean Nasa Space Flight... ;)
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