Author Topic: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS  (Read 19610 times)

Online Comga

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #20 on: 02/07/2017 10:52 PM »
Article from the WSJ.

Again indicates the Trump administration wants to accelerate the first manned flight of SLS.

Quote
WASHINGTON—Commercial space interests for the first time are publicly singing the praises of NASA’s biggest, most expensive rocket program, seeking to get in sync with the Trump administration’s evolving  focus on public-private partnerships to further space exploration.

The shift was announced at a conference here Tuesday by Alan Stern, chairman of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation, who emphasized synergies between budding  commercial-space projects and the agency’s multibillion-dollar, heavy-lift rocket, called the Space Launch System, under development by Boeing Co. and a bevy of industrial partners.

Starting in the early years of former President Barack Obama’s administration, many commercial-space companies and their advocates viewed the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s  behemoth rocket as a major rival, often complaining that the program effectively siphoned off funds from less conventional commercial efforts.

Quote
Under current scenarios, Lockheed Martin Corp.’s Orion spacecraft is designed to sit on top and ultimately protect humans from the ravages of radiation and other hazards on journeys throughout the solar system. But Mr. Stern’s surprise announcement appears to open the door to broader uses of the Space Launch System.

Before his speech, Mr. Stern said in an interview that his members see “many potential benefits” from continued work and even accelerated development of the Space Launch System. “I don’t want us to get into a perceived food fight” over funding and other potential trade-offs related to the project, he said. The rocket’s initial unmanned flight is scheduled for next year, with a manned mission anticipated by 2021.

But there is growing discussion among industry officials that the manned flight could be accelerated to 2020 to better fit with the Trump team’s preferred timetable. Going back to his campaign, Mr. Trump and his surrogates strongly endorsed NASA programs that also promote commercial space goals.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/leading-commercial-space-group-embraces-nasas-biggest-rocket-1486491576

It's another Andy Pasztor article.  These always have an angle, mostly favoring the established majors over the smaller and/or newer competitors.
I wonder what Stern thinks of Andy's interpretation of his remarks.  There may be a stretch between "not getting into a food fight" and "his members see advantages... from accelerating" SLS.
"Mr. Stern’s surprise announcement appears to open the door to broader uses of the Space Launch System."  (It's Dr. Stern, Andy.) Stern does want to advocate for missions so large only the SLS could launch them, and we know the target.
And Pasztor REALLY overstates Trump's support for NASA.  A two hour photo op and a few mild statements.  Meh.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Lar

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #21 on: 02/07/2017 10:54 PM »
And of course just by chance would these commercial vehicles that human spaceflight should be using instead just happen to be supplied by Space X because by happenstance they have the FH.

I don't need to put words in your mouth just know your posting history.

Two things.

1) If you want to slag SpaceX, you ought to at least do them the courtesy of spelling their name right. There's no " " in it.
2) If you want to slag other posters, you ought to take that outside, no place for it in NSF. Your posts in this thread and others lack excellence to others. I'm not a fan of public appraisals but it bears mentioning.

That was a mod post in case you were wondering.
« Last Edit: 02/07/2017 10:55 PM by Lar »
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Offline Star One

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Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #22 on: 02/07/2017 10:54 PM »
Article from the WSJ.

Again indicates the Trump administration wants to accelerate the first manned flight of SLS.

Quote
WASHINGTON—Commercial space interests for the first time are publicly singing the praises of NASA’s biggest, most expensive rocket program, seeking to get in sync with the Trump administration’s evolving  focus on public-private partnerships to further space exploration.

The shift was announced at a conference here Tuesday by Alan Stern, chairman of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation, who emphasized synergies between budding  commercial-space projects and the agency’s multibillion-dollar, heavy-lift rocket, called the Space Launch System, under development by Boeing Co. and a bevy of industrial partners.

Starting in the early years of former President Barack Obama’s administration, many commercial-space companies and their advocates viewed the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s  behemoth rocket as a major rival, often complaining that the program effectively siphoned off funds from less conventional commercial efforts.

Quote
Under current scenarios, Lockheed Martin Corp.’s Orion spacecraft is designed to sit on top and ultimately protect humans from the ravages of radiation and other hazards on journeys throughout the solar system. But Mr. Stern’s surprise announcement appears to open the door to broader uses of the Space Launch System.

Before his speech, Mr. Stern said in an interview that his members see “many potential benefits” from continued work and even accelerated development of the Space Launch System. “I don’t want us to get into a perceived food fight” over funding and other potential trade-offs related to the project, he said. The rocket’s initial unmanned flight is scheduled for next year, with a manned mission anticipated by 2021.

But there is growing discussion among industry officials that the manned flight could be accelerated to 2020 to better fit with the Trump team’s preferred timetable. Going back to his campaign, Mr. Trump and his surrogates strongly endorsed NASA programs that also promote commercial space goals.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/leading-commercial-space-group-embraces-nasas-biggest-rocket-1486491576

It's another Andy Pasztor article.  These always have an angle, mostly favoring the established majors over the smaller and/or newer competitors.
I wonder what Stern thinks of Andy's interpretation of his remarks.  There may be a stretch between "not getting into a food fight" and "his members see advantages... from accelerating" SLS.
"Mr. Stern’s surprise announcement appears to open the door to broader uses of the Space Launch System."  (It's Dr. Stern, Andy.) Stern does want to advocate for missions so large only the SLS could launch them, and we know the target.
And Pasztor REALLY overstates Trump's support for NASA.  A two hour photo op and a few mild statements.  Meh.

All I say was I found the link on Mr Stern's Twitter stream after he retweeted it.
« Last Edit: 02/07/2017 10:55 PM by Star One »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #23 on: 02/07/2017 10:55 PM »
Even if the market didn't have too many launch vehicles, the basic development funding for SLS (and ARES) is an ENORMOUS opportunity cost. Like $20-30 billion already, and isn't even in flight yet. Easily enough for a basic hyperbolic lander. We literally could be on the Moon already.
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Offline Star One

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Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #24 on: 02/07/2017 10:58 PM »
Even if the market didn't have too many launch vehicles, the basic development funding for SLS (and ARES) is an ENORMOUS opportunity cost. Like $20-30 billion already, and isn't even in flight yet. Easily enough for a basic hyperbolic lander. We literally could be on the Moon already.

So what you still have to develop an actual nuts and bolts launch vehicle first to put the lander on the moon, as you don't fly anywhere with paper rockets and PowerPoint presentations.
« Last Edit: 02/07/2017 10:59 PM by Star One »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #25 on: 02/07/2017 10:59 PM »
I say complete SLS/Orion and fly it otherwise will just be another wasted partially complete development program to add the huge pile that already exist.
When commercial sector are capable of delivering  crew to DSH, that is time to retire SLS. I doubt that will be much before 2025.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #26 on: 02/07/2017 11:01 PM »
Even if the market didn't have too many launch vehicles, the basic development funding for SLS (and ARES) is an ENORMOUS opportunity cost. Like $20-30 billion already, and isn't even in flight yet. Easily enough for a basic hyperbolic lander. We literally could be on the Moon already.

So what you still have to develop an actual nuts and bolts launch vehicle first to put the lander on the moon, as you don't fly anywhere with paper rockets and PowerPoint presentations.
Atlas V and Delta IV and Antares and Falcon 9 are not "paper rockets." Orion already flew (uncrewed) on Delta IV Heavy.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Star One

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Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #27 on: 02/07/2017 11:02 PM »
I say complete SLS/Orion and fly it otherwise will just be another wasted partially complete development program to add the huge pile that already exist.
When commercial sector are capable of delivering  crew to DSH, that is time to retire SLS. I doubt that will be much before 2025.

That would still be wasting money retiring it after such a short period of use. You can't always say that commercial space is the answer to ever issue out there. Fair enough there's a good argument for it in LEO but outside of that I say it becomes fundamentally weaker as an argument at this time.
« Last Edit: 02/07/2017 11:05 PM by Star One »

Offline Star One

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #28 on: 02/07/2017 11:04 PM »
Even if the market didn't have too many launch vehicles, the basic development funding for SLS (and ARES) is an ENORMOUS opportunity cost. Like $20-30 billion already, and isn't even in flight yet. Easily enough for a basic hyperbolic lander. We literally could be on the Moon already.

So what you still have to develop an actual nuts and bolts launch vehicle first to put the lander on the moon, as you don't fly anywhere with paper rockets and PowerPoint presentations.
Atlas V and Delta IV and Antares and Falcon 9 are not "paper rockets." Orion already flew (uncrewed) on Delta IV Heavy.

But Delta IVH would have cost a great deal to both human rate and add the necessary capacity to make it a viable BEO vehicle. There was a time you could have gone that route but that's now long past. The others aren't really viable vehicles for BEO use.

Online QuantumG

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #29 on: 02/07/2017 11:04 PM »
Basically the same way they tried to justify the shuttle.
Non-commercial spaceflight and filicide  http://tylervigen.com/view_correlation?id=185

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #30 on: 02/07/2017 11:07 PM »
Basically the same way they tried to justify the shuttle.

The Shuttle suffered in development from the competing demands of NASA & bodies like the USAF & NRO as to why it ended up where it was when being justified.

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #31 on: 02/07/2017 11:08 PM »
I say complete SLS/Orion and fly it otherwise will just be another wasted partially complete development program to add the huge pile that already exist.
When commercial sector are capable of delivering  crew to DSH, that is time to retire SLS. I doubt that will be much before 2025.

Sunk cost fallacy. (not a mod post)
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Offline Darkseraph

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #32 on: 02/07/2017 11:23 PM »
To be blunt, other non-SLS approaches to BEO spaceflight don't have big enough political payback for those in charge of the purse strings. Any program that is being funded by the government is going to need some form of political payback, by definition. Technical and economic efficiency aren't the only factors that will determine such a program being supported - they have to be balanced with political forces. This obviously grinds the gears of technically inclined people but is part of the reality of politics. The other option in these situations is often not another techinically brilliant architecture being picked, but nothing at all. Zilch.

The Direct Team years ago got this part right, their architecture addressed the poltiical concerns rather than just being efficient or technically brilliant. Addressing those is often required to get anything off the ground at all!
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Offline Basto

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #33 on: 02/07/2017 11:33 PM »
Why do people think that throwing more money at SLS will get it back on schedule?

There is not some magic vending machine with SLS rockets in it that we just haven't put enough money into yet. 

IF SLS ever flies I will be astounded if it happens before 2021.  (I would love to see that thing fly but every year that passes it seems less and less likely).

I am starting to wonder if Andy Pasztor has a big stake in Lockheed or something...

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #34 on: 02/07/2017 11:43 PM »
I seem to remember a while back, congress asked NASA whether extra cash would help bring the first launch date of SLS forward and NASA replied "No, but maybe the second".

Also, I'm not immediately seeing what commercial opportunities there would be for using SLS given it's astronomical (pun intended) cost!
« Last Edit: 02/07/2017 11:44 PM by SimonFD »
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #35 on: 02/07/2017 11:57 PM »
After all these years I really feel that all the pro/anti SLS arguments have been made and the discussions just keeps going around in circles. Either there is a defined requirement for the vehicle at the present time or there isn't. If you just want to blow a wad of cash on a show, that's fine too... Just be up-front about it...
« Last Edit: 02/08/2017 01:36 AM by Rocket Science »
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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #36 on: 02/08/2017 12:22 AM »
I say complete SLS/Orion and fly it otherwise will just be another wasted partially complete development program to add the huge pile that already exist.
When commercial sector are capable of delivering  crew to DSH, that is time to retire SLS. I doubt that will be much before 2025.

By that time SLS will have flown three missions. Only one of those is scheduled to take a crew, and that flight in the early 2020s (I predict 2023) will use a completely expendable rocket and spacecraft to replicate something NASA did in 1968 with a completely expendable rocket and spacecraft.

Wow.

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #37 on: 02/08/2017 01:10 AM »
Even if the market didn't have too many launch vehicles, the basic development funding for SLS (and ARES) is an ENORMOUS opportunity cost. Like $20-30 billion already, and isn't even in flight yet. Easily enough for a basic hyperbolic lander. We literally could be on the Moon already.

So what you still have to develop an actual nuts and bolts launch vehicle first to put the lander on the moon, as you don't fly anywhere with paper rockets and PowerPoint presentations.
Atlas V and Delta IV and Antares and Falcon 9 are not "paper rockets." Orion already flew (uncrewed) on Delta IV Heavy.

But Delta IVH would have cost a great deal to both human rate and add the necessary capacity to make it a viable BEO vehicle. There was a time you could have gone that route but that's now long past. The others aren't really viable vehicles for BEO use.
Sure they are. Google "LEO rendezvous." If something can launch something to LEO, it can be used for BLEO.

...and just docking is needed, with fluid transfer (like the Russians have been doing forever). Same sort of thing we do operationally all the time at ISS. No scary "orbital assembly."
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To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #38 on: 02/08/2017 01:15 AM »
Also, you don't even have to human-rate Delta IV Heavy if you really don't want to. You COULD just use it to launch the spacecraft empty and transfer using a crew vehicle from ISS.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline su27k

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Re: Leading Commercial Space Group Embraces SLS
« Reply #39 on: 02/08/2017 02:29 AM »
What is commercial about SLS?

This is disappointing.

Disappointing because it could be positioned against Space X?

In spite of protestations to the contrary it seems every time there is a hint of competition to Space X, whoever it might be, some get up in arms about it.

Why single out SpaceX? There're more than one commercial company building heavy lift and contemplating super heavy.

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