Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET 31 May 2017 : DISCUSSION  (Read 21612 times)

Offline gongora

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CRS-11 Discussion thread

NSF Threads for CRS-11 : Discussion

NSF Articles for CRS-11:

NSF Articles for CRS missions :  https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=CRS


Launch NET April 2017 on Falcon 9 from LC-39A



External cargo: ROSA (Roll-Out Solar Array), NICER (Neutron star Interior Composition ExploreR), MUSES (Multi-User System for Earth Sensing)



Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent)  /   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles  /  SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions)
   L2 SpaceX Section
« Last Edit: 04/17/2017 05:15 PM by ChrisGebhardt »

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #1 on: 02/04/2017 01:06 AM »
ROSA (Roll-Out Solar Array) is an external payload on CRS-11

Quote
The Roll-Out Solar Array (ROSA) is a new type of solar panel that rolls open in space like a party favor and is more compact than current rigid panel designs. The ROSA investigation tests deployment and retraction, shape changes when the Earth blocks the sun, and other physical challenges to determine the array’s strength and durability.

Research Overview
The Roll-Out Solar Array (ROSA) is an innovative new solar array design that uses high strain one-piece composite slit-tube booms. The stored strain energy of the booms enforces the deployment actuation, and the booms provide the array's deployed structural stiffness and strength.

Operational Requirements and Protocols
ROSA is stowed in the trunk of the SpaceX’s Dragon capsule during launch. Once on orbit, the ISS robotic arm removes ROSA from the Dragon trunk and temporarily stows it on an ELC. When ROSA operations are ready to begin, the ROSA is picked up by the ISS robotics arm and located in its operations location. The ROSA operations are conducted while attached to the SSRMS/SPDM for a duration of 7 days. During initial deployment of the array, video is required. Data are recorded using embedded sensors on the experiment. Testing is activated and commanded via the ground controllers (ROBO).

ROSA is built by Deployable Space Systems
« Last Edit: 02/04/2017 01:37 AM by gongora »

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #2 on: 02/04/2017 01:07 AM »
NICER (Neutron star Interior Composition ExploreR) is an external payload on CRS-11

NICER home page on NASA.gov
Quote
About NICER
NASA’s Neutron star Interior Composition Explorer, or NICER, mission is an International Space Station payload that will provide high-precision measurements of neutron stars – objects containing ultra-dense matter at the threshold of collapse into black holes.

NICER will also test — for the first time in space — technology that relies on pulsars as navigation beacons. The technique may eventually guide human exploration to the distant reaches of the solar system and beyond.

Although NICER’s standalone research offers definitive improvements to existing scientific understanding, NICER’s data will have significant synergy with existing and future missions that can further expand our understanding of the universe.

NICER will launch in early 2017 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida aboard the SpaceX-11 ISS Commercial Resupply Services flight.

NICER home page at Goddard Space Flight Center

NASA’s NICER Mission Arrives at Kennedy Space Center [June 8, 2016]
Quote
NICER's X-ray Timing Instrument (XTI) offers an unprecedented combination of capabilities to view the emissions of neutron stars in “soft” X-ray light (less energetic than the X-rays typically used for medical imaging). A bundle of 56 co-aligned optics and X-ray sensors, the instrument represents an innovative configuration of flight-proven components, minimizing risk and meeting the science investigation’s demands of fast timing and the ability to measure the energies of detected X-ray photons.
...
NICER will operate from the ExPRESS Logistics Carrier 2 on the ISS after launch, extraction from the transfer vehicle and installation. NICER is planned for launch from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida aboard the SpaceX-11 ISS Commercial Resupply Services flight, currently scheduled for February 2017. The baseline mission lifetime is 18 months. The NICER team anticipates initial science results by late summer 2017.
« Last Edit: 02/17/2017 02:47 PM by gongora »

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #3 on: 02/04/2017 01:07 AM »
MUSES (Multi-User System for Earth Sensing) is an external payload on CRS-11

MUSES - ISS experiment page
Quote
Teledyne Brown is developing the Multiple User System for Earth Sensing (MUSES), an Earth imaging platform, as part of the company’s new commercial space-based digital imaging business. MUSES hosts earth-viewing instruments (Hosted Payloads), such as high-resolution digital cameras, hyperspectral imagers, and provides precision pointing and other accommodations. It hosts up to four instruments at the same time, and offers the ability to change, upgrade, and robotically service those instruments.
[editorial comment:  That page is a freakin' mess and badly needs updating]

Precision Pointing Platform For Earth Observations From The ISS [Oct 22, 2015]
Quote
The first instrument placed aboard will be the DLR’s DESIS hyperspectral instrument, which has the capacity to distinguish slight variations in the reflectance of sunlight from the Earth surface (in the visible through near-infrared spectrum) when pointed over a geo- graphic area. An image spectrometer is able to distinguish very subtle changes in the reflectance spectrum for distinguishing plant species or whether the forest is undergoing some sort of stress due to drought or pests. Fine variations in surface reflectance can give immense amounts of information just not possible with picture, such as you would take with an off-the-shelf digital camera.

The attached PDF file, "Teledyne’s DESIS Spectrometer on the ISS-based MUSES Platform" from June 2016 is a nice source of information.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2017 02:10 AM by gongora »

Offline RemoveBeforeFlight

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #4 on: 02/04/2017 08:02 PM »
ROSA (Roll-Out Solar Array) is an external payload on CRS-11

Quote
The Roll-Out Solar Array (ROSA) is a new type of solar panel that rolls open in space like a party favor and is more compact than current rigid panel designs. The ROSA investigation tests deployment and retraction, shape changes when the Earth blocks the sun, and other physical challenges to determine the array’s strength and durability.

Research Overview
The Roll-Out Solar Array (ROSA) is an innovative new solar array design that uses high strain one-piece composite slit-tube booms. The stored strain energy of the booms enforces the deployment actuation, and the booms provide the array's deployed structural stiffness and strength.

Operational Requirements and Protocols
ROSA is stowed in the trunk of the SpaceX’s Dragon capsule during launch. Once on orbit, the ISS robotic arm removes ROSA from the Dragon trunk and temporarily stows it on an ELC. When ROSA operations are ready to begin, the ROSA is picked up by the ISS robotics arm and located in its operations location. The ROSA operations are conducted while attached to the SSRMS/SPDM for a duration of 7 days. During initial deployment of the array, video is required. Data are recorded using embedded sensors on the experiment. Testing is activated and commanded via the ground controllers (ROBO).

ROSA is built by Deployable Space Systems

This is some amazing technology. I can't wait to see the used on the ISS. There has been a lot of new innovation in the world of solar panels lately. (Orbital ATK Cygnus panels, Tesla's residential shingle panel etc) It will be interesting if the deployment of this solar array is as complicated as the BEAM module.

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #5 on: 02/16/2017 02:25 AM »
SpaceX is keeping up a steady pace of applications for FCC permits, let's hope they follow up with a steady pace of launches...

FCC Applications for: CRS-11 Dragon TT&C / CRS-11 Launch / CRS-11 Recovery

Quote
The current launch planning date is NET 4/14/2016

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #6 on: 02/16/2017 02:36 AM »
ROSA (Roll-Out Solar Array) is an external payload on CRS-11

NICER (Neutron star Interior Composition ExploreR) is an external payload on CRS-11

MUSES (Multi-User System for Earth Sensing) is an external payload on CRS-11

That looks like quite an array of expensive, complex and one-off hardware there!!  The various owners (and NASA) must be VERY, very confident these payloads will arrive safely to all decide to go up on the same flight.

« Last Edit: 02/16/2017 02:36 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #7 on: 02/16/2017 03:34 AM »
That looks like quite an array of expensive, complex and one-off hardware there!!  The various owners (and NASA) must be VERY, very confident these payloads will arrive safely to all decide to go up on the same flight.

When the GAO did a report on the CRS program they helpfully pointed out that NASA was paying for the trunk space whether they used it or not, so they should really try to use it.  Dragon trunks will mostly carry a full load from now on.

Offline deruch

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #8 on: 02/17/2017 02:06 PM »


Quote
The NICER Mission: A Partnership in Science and Technology on the ISS
Host- Jan Vrtilek
Speaker- Keith Gendreau (Goddard)
Feb 4, 2016

The Neutron Star Interior Composition ExploreR (NICER) is an X-ray astrophysics mission of opportunity that will reveal the inner workings of neutron stars, cosmic lighthouses that embody unique gravitational, electromagnetic, and nuclear-physics environments. NICER achieves this objective by deploying a high-heritage instrument as an attached payload on a zenith-side ExPRESS Logistics Carrier (ELC) aboard the International Space Station (ISS). NICER offers order-of-magnitude improvements in time-coherent sensitivity and timing resolution beyond the capabilities of any X-ray observatory flown to date. Through a cost-sharing opportunity between the NASA Science Mission Directorate (SMD) and NASA Space Technology Mission Directorate (STMD) NICER will also demonstrate how neutron stars can serve as deep-space navigation beacons to guide humankind out of Earth orbit, to destinations throughout the Solar System and beyond. I will overview the NICER mission, discuss our experience working with the ISS, and describe the process of forging a partnership between SMD and STMD.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But, in practice, there is.  --Jan van de Snepscheut

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #9 on: 02/20/2017 06:08 AM »
ROSA (Roll-Out Solar Array) is an external payload on CRS-11
This is fascinating - I can't find basic information on this however.
The DSS homepage says of a picture that is also used by NASA to talk of this '10-15kW'.
Aha!
https://www.nasa.gov/content/administrator-bolden-visits-company-rolling-out-new-solar-array-technology/ has some more info.
Quote
The ROSA engineering development unit is sized to provide nominally 20 kW of electrical power per array – enough for exciting new missions such as redirecting an asteroid to lunar orbit to enable in-depth studies by astronauts and commercial venturers. 

The solar array is configured for launch stows into a cylindrical volume less than two feet in diameter. Once the spacecraft is positioned, the arrays roll out to their full size, 20 feet by 45 feet. The very large solar array is able to be stowed so compactly because its solar cells are mounted on an innovative flexible blanket which is much thinner than the traditional rigid panels in current use.

A report on near term space capabilities gives ROSA up to 150W/kg performance - which seems implausible unless this is the one with the lens structures, which it seems it is not.

The CRS11 manifest would of course give the weight, but I don't think it's been listed.
As some context - DS1 got 42W/kg, Dawn 80W/kg, and ISS panels are now around 27W.

Even if it is one of their more 'pedestrian' array designs - it would enable development of the more exotic arrays the company has designed.

As well as the more obvious launch cost issues, lighter solar panels make for sportier ion drive vehicles.

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #10 on: 02/20/2017 11:23 AM »
ROSA (Roll-Out Solar Array) is an external payload on CRS-11
This is fascinating - I can't find basic information on this however.
The DSS homepage says of a picture that is also used by NASA to talk of this '10-15kW'.
Aha!
https://www.nasa.gov/content/administrator-bolden-visits-company-rolling-out-new-solar-array-technology/ has some more info.
Quote
The ROSA engineering development unit is sized to provide nominally 20 kW of electrical power per array – enough for exciting new missions such as redirecting an asteroid to lunar orbit to enable in-depth studies by astronauts and commercial venturers. 

The solar array is configured for launch stows into a cylindrical volume less than two feet in diameter. Once the spacecraft is positioned, the arrays roll out to their full size, 20 feet by 45 feet. The very large solar array is able to be stowed so compactly because its solar cells are mounted on an innovative flexible blanket which is much thinner than the traditional rigid panels in current use.

A report on near term space capabilities gives ROSA up to 150W/kg performance - which seems implausible unless this is the one with the lens structures, which it seems it is not.

The CRS11 manifest would of course give the weight, but I don't think it's been listed.
As some context - DS1 got 42W/kg, Dawn 80W/kg, and ISS panels are now around 27W.

Even if it is one of their more 'pedestrian' array designs - it would enable development of the more exotic arrays the company has designed.

As well as the more obvious launch cost issues, lighter solar panels make for sportier ion drive vehicles.
Here's a couple of slides from an STMD presentation dated 26 Jul 2016 which has some tech info on ROSA.

[Note: SOA = State of the Art]
« Last Edit: 02/20/2017 11:24 AM by AnalogMan »

Offline Spirit47

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #11 on: 02/21/2017 07:41 AM »
I read that it's not a new Dragon for this flight, but the reuse of CRS-4. That's true ?

http://spacenews.com/spacex-to-reuse-dragon-capsules-on-cargo-missions/

Offline Rei

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #12 on: 02/21/2017 09:51 AM »

A report on near term space capabilities gives ROSA up to 150W/kg performance - which seems implausible unless this is the one with the lens structures, which it seems it is not.

The CRS11 manifest would of course give the weight, but I don't think it's been listed.
As some context - DS1 got 42W/kg, Dawn 80W/kg, and ISS panels are now around 27W.

Even if it is one of their more 'pedestrian' array designs - it would enable development of the more exotic arrays the company has designed.

As well as the more obvious launch cost issues, lighter solar panels make for sportier ion drive vehicles.

That's not at all out of line versus what ATK's been making, a number of such systems which have already been utilized on actual probes, and what their next generation system is like:

https://www.orbitalatk.com/space-systems/space-components/solar-arrays/docs/FS007_15_OA_3862%20UltraFlex.pdf
https://www.orbitalatk.com/space-systems/space-components/solar-arrays/docs/FS008_15_OA_3862%20MegaFlex%20Solar%20Array.pdf

Solar power mass density for space applications has dramatically increased over the past couple decades.  It'll be neat to see how far these trends can go.  My first thoughts were that wiring mass would eventually be the blocking tech, but you can always go higher voltage.  The active solar material still makes up just a tiny fraction of the total mass.  We might a couple decades from now see array power/mass ratios that make even these numbers look poor by comparison.

One tech that I feel provides really exciting opportunities for space - particularly things like very large solar arrays, but much more - is rollable trusses.  Have you ever seen these?



They also have expandable / retractable booms that seem to appear from / disappear to nowhere:



« Last Edit: 02/21/2017 09:59 AM by Rei »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #13 on: 02/21/2017 10:31 AM »
I read that it's not a new Dragon for this flight, but the reuse of CRS-4. That's true ?

http://spacenews.com/spacex-to-reuse-dragon-capsules-on-cargo-missions/

Yes. Confirmed in CRS-10 press conference. (I can't remember if it was the pre-launch or post-launch briefing, or both?!) CRS-4 Dragon shell is bring re-used. Some components will be new, but I don't think there are any public details on the extent of that.

Offline rockets4life97

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #14 on: 02/21/2017 02:12 PM »
On Salo's ISS manifest, I see the date for this flight is currently April 9. How reliable is that date?

Offline ChrisGebhardt

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #15 on: 02/21/2017 03:35 PM »
On Salo's ISS manifest, I see the date for this flight is currently April 9. How reliable is that date?

9 April is the NET date.  There are at least two, possibly three, F9 missions from 39A before that.  The basic answer, as frustrating as it might be, is that NET 9 April is as reliable as a launch date can be 6 weeks out with missions manifested on a single pad ahead of it.  I wouldn't go booking flights yet.

Offline rockets4life97

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #16 on: 02/21/2017 05:04 PM »
NASA pulled rank and the CRS-10 date stuck forcing Echostar to move after. Is this a common occurrence? In other words, is the CRS-11 date more sticky such that if there are delays, then other satellites planned to be launched before would move after?

Offline whitelancer64

NASA pulled rank and the CRS-10 date stuck forcing Echostar to move after. Is this a common occurrence? In other words, is the CRS-11 date more sticky such that if there are delays, then other satellites planned to be launched before would move after?

CRS missions are subject to the VV schedule for the ISS, that's the primary driver for the launch date. If the VV schedule gets shuffled, so does the launch date for CRS-11.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #18 on: 02/21/2017 06:12 PM »
NASA pulled rank and the CRS-10 date stuck forcing Echostar to move after. Is this a common occurrence? In other words, is the CRS-11 date more sticky such that if there are delays, then other satellites planned to be launched before would move after?

Texas and SLC40 could launch commsats if LC39 is tied up with a NASA or FH launch.

This is why having the diversity of multiple eastern pads available will help SpaceX. 

With any luck it won't be a problem much longer.
I know they don't need it, but Crossfeed would be super cool.

Offline Norm38

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #19 on: 03/16/2017 04:09 PM »
I can't believe that ROSA array fits in the trunk.  Going by the people in the picture as 2m, the array is more than 4m wide, which is greater than the trunk dimensions.  Does it tri-fold or something?

I looked for a deployment video and only found this: 

Is this array used to provide extra power to the station?  If not, what is the load?  Also, the press release says the experiment only runs 7 days.  What happens to the array after that?  It can't be rolled up and put back in the trunk.  Does it remain at ISS permanently? 
« Last Edit: 03/29/2017 03:57 PM by jacqmans »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #20 on: 03/16/2017 09:52 PM »
I can't believe that ROSA array fits in the trunk.  Going by the people in the picture as 2m, the array is more than 4m wide, which is greater than the trunk dimensions.  Does it tri-fold or something?

I looked for a deployment video and only found this: 

Is this array used to provide extra power to the station?  If not, what is the load?  Also, the press release says the experiment only runs 7 days.  What happens to the array after that?  It can't be rolled up and put back in the trunk.  Does it remain at ISS permanently? 

A wiseguy might ask what part of "Roll-Out" is hard to understand?
A serious person would say yes, it rolls out to much wider than it's packaged dimensions.
According to the video, all eight rolls on each side start in one plane.  They fold out into two stepped lines and then spread.
Who says it can't be rolled up?  We don't see the mechanisms, but they do plan to roll it back up.
The fifth goal is listed as "Characterize retraction loads and kinematics."
It talks about determining power generation, but not delivering power to the ISS.  It probably has a dummy load.
It has it's own thread.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Norm38

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #21 on: 03/17/2017 02:56 PM »
Thanks for the link to the dedicated thread.  I'll take array specific questions there.
The video I linked isn't this exact array, so don't go by that, this is a single roll.

My question on how this fits in the trunk is still on topic.  Yes the array rolls up along the long axis, but nothing shows it folding along the short axis, and the length of the short axis seems to be longer than the trunk can hold.  Is it going in at an angle?

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #22 on: 03/17/2017 03:28 PM »
Thanks for the link to the dedicated thread.  I'll take array specific questions there.
The video I linked isn't this exact array, so don't go by that, this is a single roll.

My question on how this fits in the trunk is still on topic.  Yes the array rolls up along the long axis, but nothing shows it folding along the short axis, and the length of the short axis seems to be longer than the trunk can hold.  Is it going in at an angle?

The picture I included in the second post of the thread may not actually be ROSA.  After looking at their site again, ROSA may be the one shown in the middle row of this picture being deployed.  That looks a lot smaller.  This is one of several payloads that have to go into the trunk on standard payload adapters so I doubt anything will be stuck in there at an angle.

edit:  They have several sizes on their site that seem to be labeled ROSA, they seem to be using it as a more general term for their rolled solar arrays, and not necessarily just for the one in this experiment.  I really don't know what size they're sending up, but I think we can assume it's a size that will easily fit in the trunk with the other payloads.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2017 03:36 PM by gongora »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #23 on: 03/28/2017 03:29 PM »
Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust 26s27 seconds ago

NASA’s Paul Hertz says at Nat’l Academies meeting that NICER payload to ISS set to launch May 14 on SpX-11 Dragon mission.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/846745556559036420

Offline psloss

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #24 on: 03/28/2017 04:53 PM »
Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust 26s27 seconds ago

NASA’s Paul Hertz says at Nat’l Academies meeting that NICER payload to ISS set to launch May 14 on SpX-11 Dragon mission.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/846745556559036420
Corroborated in the NAC HEO ISS status presentation, some time in May.
« Last Edit: 03/28/2017 05:12 PM by psloss »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #25 on: 03/28/2017 05:09 PM »
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/846766790919245827

Quote
Jeff Foust @jeff_foust
Gatens: SpX-11 mission to the ISS in May will be the first to re-fly a Dragon capsule.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #26 on: 03/28/2017 05:12 PM »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #27 on: 03/28/2017 05:16 PM »
So, this might use another "flight proven" F9? ("SpaceX is determining which launch vehicle to assign to this mission")
« Last Edit: 03/28/2017 05:17 PM by Lars-J »

Offline KaiFarrimond

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #28 on: 03/28/2017 05:18 PM »


"SpaceX is determining which launch vehicle to assign for this mission"????
Of Course I Still Love You; We Have A Falcon 9 Onboard!

Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #29 on: 03/28/2017 05:19 PM »
So, this might use another "flight proven" F9? ("SpaceX is determining which launch vehicle to assign to this mission")

I don't read it that way at all (hasn't NASA publicly opted for a wait-n-see approach to booster reuse?). I read it as determining which of the new boosters in the production pipeline (i.e. serial numbers) will end up being assigned for this flight.
« Last Edit: 03/28/2017 05:19 PM by ugordan »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #30 on: 03/28/2017 05:26 PM »
So, this might use another "flight proven" F9? ("SpaceX is determining which launch vehicle to assign to this mission")

I don't read it that way at all (hasn't NASA publicly opted for a wait-n-see approach to booster reuse?). I read it as determining which of the new boosters in the production pipeline (i.e. serial numbers) will end up being assigned for this flight.

Maybe.  But NASA doesn't care what the serial number of a new booster is (and they don't get a say as to which one is assigned to them), and new Falcon 9 boosters are all the same.

I would not eliminate the possibility that a previously flown stage is under consideration...
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #31 on: 03/28/2017 05:30 PM »
But NASA doesn't care what the serial number of a new booster is

I really wouldn't go that far... They very likely have insight into the processing flow of hardware assigned for their mission. Doesn't mean they get to pick the hardware, nor did I ever say that. Other than the contract expecting new boosters. The CRS-10 press conference was pretty clear about using flown boosters, IIRC.
« Last Edit: 03/28/2017 05:36 PM by ugordan »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #32 on: 03/28/2017 05:38 PM »
But NASA doesn't care what the serial number of a new booster is

I really wouldn't go that far... They very likely have insight into the processing flow of hardware assigned for their mission. Doesn't mean they get to pick the hardware, nor did I ever say that.

Does anyone really think that if hypothetically NASA requested a specific core that SpaceX would say NO?

It might not be in the contract, but they are a big enough customer that I suspect they get to pick and choose to their hearts content.

Offline Sesquipedalian

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #33 on: 03/28/2017 05:56 PM »
and new Falcon 9 boosters are all the same.

We can't assume this.  At last report, SpaceX hadn't yet flown a Block 4 or Block 5 booster.

Offline ChrisGebhardt

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #34 on: 03/28/2017 06:51 PM »
But NASA doesn't care what the serial number of a new booster is

... Other than the contract expecting new boosters. The CRS-10 press conference was pretty clear about using flown boosters, IIRC.

That might be changing.  ;)

(Not for CRS-11, but in general.)
« Last Edit: 03/28/2017 06:54 PM by ChrisGebhardt »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #35 on: 03/28/2017 07:28 PM »
and new Falcon 9 boosters are all the same.

We can't assume this.  At last report, SpaceX hadn't yet flown a Block 4 or Block 5 booster.

Customers buy transportation services, not launch vehicles.  So from that standpoint stages are interchangeable.

However, I would agree that some customers may require certifications for configuration changes (i.e. block upgrades) that others don't, and that would affect which stages are available to be assigned to a launch.  But regardless, unless the customer pays SpaceX to have the ability to choose which stage they want, they are going to get whatever SpaceX decides on using.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #36 on: 03/28/2017 09:11 PM »
and new Falcon 9 boosters are all the same.

We can't assume this.  At last report, SpaceX hadn't yet flown a Block 4 or Block 5 booster.

Customers buy transportation services, not launch vehicles.  So from that standpoint stages are interchangeable.

The quote was "SpaceX is determining which launch vehicle to assign to this mission".  SpaceX is not the customer.

Offline vanoord

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #37 on: 03/29/2017 08:19 AM »
Looking at the update sheet it looks like someone decided they needed to put information about the launch vehicle to fill the space. Should it be taken as 100% fact?

Presumably the choice of S1 booster is made some time out but *could be* subject to change if the order of flights changes.

There are potentially two new cores due to be flown before CRS-11 (NROL-76 and Inmarsat-5 F4), but if there are slips with launches and a need to get CRS-11 aloft, there would be an option for CRS-11 to be brought forward and use the booster that's currently pencilled in for Inmarsat-5?

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #38 on: 03/29/2017 01:54 PM »
and new Falcon 9 boosters are all the same.


I remember that shuttle missions would choose  SSMEs that were "hotter" for missions that were heavier. Engine performance is characterized during qualification, while the design spec might be an ISP or thrust of some value, the actual performance of an individual engine will be near that but not exact. For really heavy shuttle flights (STS-117 comes to mind - speckled tank!) I thought they picked out engines that were able to give a little more assurance of success, especially in the event of an early engine shutdown.

I'm curious as to how SpaceX handles differences in engine performance. With 9 engines (FH will be even more complicated) do you need to balance a mix of engines around a central value of performance or do you save really high performing engines for flights that would benefit from it.
« Last Edit: 03/29/2017 01:55 PM by Mike_1179 »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #39 on: 03/29/2017 02:06 PM »
I'm curious as to how SpaceX handles differences in engine performance. With 9 engines (FH will be even more complicated) do you need to balance a mix of engines around a central value of performance or do you save really high performing engines for flights that would benefit from it.
I don't think liquid engines are the same in this regard as SRMs.  The performance characteristics don't vary as much and engine performance is constrained by the rate of flow of fuel/oxidizer to the engines.  SRMs just light off and go, so there is no ability to control the rate of burn dynamically once the motor is cast.

In any case, no Merlin-1D has yet flown with the full qualified thrust, that will come with Block 5 (or the ever-mysterious Block 4 perhaps).  I would expect that all engines at that point will be able to perform to that level and will not be run "hotter".

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #40 on: 03/29/2017 02:13 PM »

I don't think liquid engines are the same in this regard as SRMs.  The performance characteristics don't vary as much and engine performance is constrained by the rate of flow of fuel/oxidizer to the engines.  SRMs just light off and go, so there is no ability to control the rate of burn dynamically once the motor is cast.

In any case, no Merlin-1D has yet flown with the full qualified thrust, that will come with Block 5 (or the ever-mysterious Block 4 perhaps).  I would expect that all engines at that point will be able to perform to that level and will not be run "hotter".

So for shuttle, they would only choose SRBs that were higher performing (based on the performance of the fuel mix that went into the casting) for missions that needed it?

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #41 on: 03/29/2017 02:32 PM »

I don't think liquid engines are the same in this regard as SRMs.  The performance characteristics don't vary as much and engine performance is constrained by the rate of flow of fuel/oxidizer to the engines.  SRMs just light off and go, so there is no ability to control the rate of burn dynamically once the motor is cast.

In any case, no Merlin-1D has yet flown with the full qualified thrust, that will come with Block 5 (or the ever-mysterious Block 4 perhaps).  I would expect that all engines at that point will be able to perform to that level and will not be run "hotter".

So for shuttle, they would only choose SRBs that were higher performing (based on the performance of the fuel mix that went into the casting) for missions that needed it?

Yes.  There was some degree of "choice" here.  It could be mission specific or based on season of projected launch.  Missions in winter had these higher performance SRBs since the atmosphere is denser in winter.  IIRC, it was a difference of burning ~10,000lbs of propellant per second vs. ~11,000lbs of propellant per second.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #42 on: 03/29/2017 02:56 PM »

I don't think liquid engines are the same in this regard as SRMs.  The performance characteristics don't vary as much and engine performance is constrained by the rate of flow of fuel/oxidizer to the engines.  SRMs just light off and go, so there is no ability to control the rate of burn dynamically once the motor is cast.

In any case, no Merlin-1D has yet flown with the full qualified thrust, that will come with Block 5 (or the ever-mysterious Block 4 perhaps).  I would expect that all engines at that point will be able to perform to that level and will not be run "hotter".

So for shuttle, they would only choose SRBs that were higher performing (based on the performance of the fuel mix that went into the casting) for missions that needed it?

Yes.  There was some degree of "choice" here.  It could be mission specific or based on season of projected launch.  Missions in winter had these higher performance SRBs since the atmosphere is denser in winter.  IIRC, it was a difference of burning ~10,000lbs of propellant per second vs. ~11,000lbs of propellant per second.

So how did we veer off from SSME to SRB?

Mike's original post said "I remember that shuttle missions would choose  SSMEs that were "hotter" for missions that were heavier..."

So do SSME's AND SRB's have performance differences? and they were choosing for both?

P.S. yes this is off topic so feel free to ignore, and we can move on.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET April 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #43 on: 03/29/2017 03:53 PM »

So how did we veer off from SSME to SRB?

Mike's original post said "I remember that shuttle missions would choose  SSMEs that were "hotter" for missions that were heavier..."

So do SSME's AND SRB's have performance differences? and they were choosing for both?

P.S. yes this is off topic so feel free to ignore, and we can move on.


We got here because I incorrectly thought that SSMEs were sometimes chosen specifically for a mission if additional performance was needed. Turns out I was wrong and that specific SRBs were sometimes identified for individual shuttle missions.

That means the entire premise of my question is moot as SpaceX selecting hardware for CRS-11 would not be driven by some performance goals but by other things (like scheduling among the missions on their manifest)
« Last Edit: 03/29/2017 03:55 PM by Mike_1179 »

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #44 on: 03/30/2017 09:33 AM »
Yes, each engine has its own personality with slightly differing Isp's. Here are the Isp values for Saturn V used on Apollo 14. You can see they used the highest performing engine for the S-IVB.

S-IC
1 264.7
2 263.9
3 264.9
4 264.3
5 264.8

S-II
1 423.3
2 424.1
3 424.8
4 424.1
5 426.0

I-IVB
1 427.1
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #45 on: 03/31/2017 12:26 PM »
So, it is my understanding that this mission will mark the first reuse of a Dragon Mk1 (and may also mark the wind-down of the Mk1 production line). Has any indication been given yet as to which spacecraft will be used?
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #46 on: 03/31/2017 12:28 PM »
So, it is my understanding that this mission will mark the first reuse of a Dragon Mk1 (and may also mark the wind-down of the Mk1 production line). Has any indication been given yet as to which spacecraft will be used?

It is capsule C106, which had flown the SpX 4 mission.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #47 on: 03/31/2017 12:30 PM »
So, it is my understanding that this mission will mark the first reuse of a Dragon Mk1 (and may also mark the wind-down of the Mk1 production line). Has any indication been given yet as to which spacecraft will be used?

It is generally understood to be using the Dragon from the CRS-4 mission. I'm not sure if that has been de-facto confirmed yet though.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #48 on: 03/31/2017 02:39 PM »
So, it is my understanding that this mission will mark the first reuse of a Dragon Mk1 (and may also mark the wind-down of the Mk1 production line). Has any indication been given yet as to which spacecraft will be used?

It is generally understood to be using the Dragon from the CRS-4 mission. I'm not sure if that has been de-facto confirmed yet though.

Confirmed by NASA: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42229.msg1659526#msg1659526

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #49 on: 03/31/2017 10:14 PM »
My emphasis:

Quote
In office today: 1st reflown booster on mission cntrl screen, many flown Merlins, 1st reused Dragon ready to ship out ..I'm sensing a theme♻️

https://twitter.com/rocketjoy/status/847931487437570048

Offline Norm38

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #50 on: 03/31/2017 11:36 PM »
Cool, I've been waiting for a used Dragon to fly again, they have enough of them, probably don't need to build any more, if they can turn them around fast enough.

Offline Herb Schaltegger

My emphasis:

Quote
In office today: 1st reflown booster on mission cntrl screen, many flown Merlins, 1st reused Dragon ready to ship out ..I'm sensing a theme♻️

https://twitter.com/rocketjoy/status/847931487437570048

Has there yet been any reasonably-reliable information about what beyond the pressure vessel is being reused for certain? I'd imaging the Dracos are probably fairly easily refurbished and likely reusable. I have long wondered what the thermal environment during re-entry does to exposed CBM interface and top hatch, for instance.
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #52 on: 03/31/2017 11:51 PM »
It'll be interesting to see how much they actually refly - IIRC, it is basically only the pressure vessel. No plumbing, heat shield, recovery or docking gear.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #53 on: 03/31/2017 11:58 PM »
It'll be interesting to see how much they actually refly - IIRC, it is basically only the pressure vessel. No plumbing, heat shield, recovery or docking gear.

They have already reused components from Dragons on previous flights, so I think it is more than you think that will be reused.

Offline Bob Shaw

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #54 on: 04/01/2017 12:21 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how much they actually refly - IIRC, it is basically only the pressure vessel. No plumbing, heat shield, recovery or docking gear.

They have already reused components from Dragons on previous flights, so I think it is more than you think that will be reused.

I hope so - I'm not trying to minimise their plans. What has been reused previously? Even Apollo saw a surprising amount of reuse!

Offline MKremer

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #55 on: 04/01/2017 04:16 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how much they actually refly - IIRC, it is basically only the pressure vessel. No plumbing, heat shield, recovery or docking gear.

They have already reused components from Dragons on previous flights, so I think it is more than you think that will be reused.
That's true, but to the general public "re-use" implies just refueling and loading some new cargo. Most people don't consider what needs to be refurbished/replaced (and why).

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So, it is my understanding that this mission will mark the first reuse of a Dragon Mk1 (and may also mark the wind-down of the Mk1 production line). Has any indication been given yet as to which spacecraft will be used?

It is capsule C106, which had flown the SpX 4 mission.

Do you have a source for the C1XX numbers?
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Offline rockets4life97

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #57 on: 04/01/2017 12:00 PM »
So, it is my understanding that this mission will mark the first reuse of a Dragon Mk1 (and may also mark the wind-down of the Mk1 production line). Has any indication been given yet as to which spacecraft will be used?

It is capsule C106, which had flown the SpX 4 mission.

Do you have a source for the C1XX numbers?

The /r/spacex wiki has this info. I can't guarantee it is accurate.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #58 on: 04/01/2017 12:35 PM »
So, it is my understanding that this mission will mark the first reuse of a Dragon Mk1 (and may also mark the wind-down of the Mk1 production line). Has any indication been given yet as to which spacecraft will be used?

It is capsule C106, which had flown the SpX 4 mission.

Do you have a source for the C1XX numbers?

The /r/spacex wiki has this info. I can't guarantee it is accurate.

It's come from multiple sources, but employee u/Spiiice (who has since deleted their account) did mention it on r/SpaceX. Dragon 1 capsules are C1XX, Dragon 2 capsules are C2XX.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #59 on: 04/02/2017 04:09 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how much they actually refly - IIRC, it is basically only the pressure vessel. No plumbing, heat shield, recovery or docking gear.

They have already reused components from Dragons on previous flights, so I think it is more than you think that will be reused.

I'm pretty sure we've already heard that they reuse the CBM and much of the gear from the GNC bay such as the grapple fixture regularly. I would be interested to know though how much of the gear between the pressure vessel and the OML is being reused. I'm sure it is a new OML and heat shield.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #60 on: 04/17/2017 03:57 PM »
Quote
Joel Montalbano, NASA: next SpaceX Dragon cargo mission, SpX-11, now planned for May 31 launch, berthing June 3.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/853991474253484032

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET 31 May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #61 on: 04/20/2017 01:49 PM »
Speaking of reusing the pressure vessel...

...is there ANY good estimate for how much the individual components of the Dragon actually mass? Dry mass is the sum of aeroshell, pressure vessel, trunk body, solar panels, Dracos, tanks, and miscellania. I just have no idea what that breakdown looks like.

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET 31 May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #62 on: 04/22/2017 05:33 PM »
The booster (1035.1) is at Pad 39A.

Quote from: Stephen C Smith
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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-11 : NET 31 May 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #63 on: 04/22/2017 08:12 PM »
A video has now been posted (attached):

Quote
A gift-wrapped present from @SpaceX arrived today at @NASAKennedy.

https://twitter.com/spacekscblog/status/855872415620050945

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