Author Topic: Elon The Boring Company  (Read 1626622 times)

Offline jpo234

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #660 on: 10/23/2017 05:13 am »
Probably only electric cars will be allowed on the sleds
It will be a number of years before fully electric cars make up a significant percentage of the fleet (not just of sales).
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline kdhilliard

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #661 on: 10/23/2017 12:29 pm »
Any information on the Hawthorne boring? Wondering if they're going to connect to the docks...

The last document I saw on NSF that was from the city of Hawthorne showed the tunnel only running down below W 120th Street and terminating at an existing parking lot along 120th.

I watched the 3 August 2017 presentation of TBC's Brett Horton before the Hawthorne City Council (see post from this thread), where he said that the tunnel was for them to learn about tunneling and for testing their skate, but that it will not be used to actually transport people or cars.  I kept waiting for someone on the council to ask about the ultimate disposition of the tunnel.  When they are done with their testing, will it be converted to some other useful purpose.  If not, will it be backfilled, or will it simply be abandoned in place, and is TBC committing to maintain it in perpetuity?  But no such questions were asked.

Do we know if the ultimate disposition of the tunnel was subsequently addressed?
« Last Edit: 10/23/2017 12:31 pm by kdhilliard »

Offline rsdavis9

Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #662 on: 10/23/2017 12:33 pm »
So the Hawthorne CA tunnel is 2 miles and the Maryland tunnel is 10 miles. These are both tunnels to help them learn about boring fast and cheap.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
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Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #663 on: 10/23/2017 09:40 pm »
Any information on the Hawthorne boring? Wondering if they're going to connect to the docks...

According to the October 6 Hawthorne City Council meeting, The Boring Company had permission to start boring the first 700 feet of the tunnel on October 7 and I expect that they did start boring.

They negotiated insurance of $2.5 million for a period of 10 years issued by Final Frontier Insurance Company, which is a captive insurance company of SpaceX.

The remainder of the ~ 10,000-foot tunnel is contingent on the price paid to the city for the land through which the tunnel will be dug.  The appraisal will be done by a mutually-agreed third-party appraiser.  If SpaceX doesn't like the appraisal, it can stop digging within the 700 feet and walk away from the project.  But SpaceX will pay at least $20,000 for the 10,000-foot tunnel, even if the appraisal is below that amount.  As far as I can tell, the appraisal will most likely be well below $20,000 -- usually, the value of the land through which a tunnel is dug is nominal.  This precedent will be important for future boring projects.

As far as boring to port, I note that part of the Port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is within Los Angeles City limits (that's where the ASDS is based).  LAX is within LA City limits.  And most of the way from LAX to Bel Air is within LA City Limits.  So perhaps the new BFR assembly plant will be within LA City limits.
« Last Edit: 10/23/2017 09:44 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline IntoTheVoid

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #664 on: 10/24/2017 02:42 am »
I kept waiting for someone on the council to ask about the ultimate disposition of the tunnel.  When they are done with their testing, will it be converted to some other useful purpose.  If not, will it be backfilled, or will it simply be abandoned in place, and is TBC committing to maintain it in perpetuity?  But no such questions were asked.

Do we know if the ultimate disposition of the tunnel was subsequently addressed?

It wasn't discussed because it was adequately covered in the associated written documents that had once been on this site near the post you referenced.

Quote from: the draft Easement
6. Backfilling Upon Abandonment and Termination of Easement.
TBC shall diligently backfill the tunnel portion of the Improvements with cement slurry or clean imported soil to 90% compaction in the event the tunnel is abandoned by TBC, ceases to be used for testing or other authorized purposes for a continuous period of two years, or in the event that TBC or its successor in interest declares bankruptcy and is required to liquidate its assets. The backfilling work shall be completed within one year of the occurrence of any of the events specified in this Section. Upon completion of the backfilling work, as verified by the City Engineer, the Easement granted by this Agreement shall automatically terminate and be of no further force and effect, except that certain provisions contained herein shall survive the termination as specified herein.

Offline RDoc

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #665 on: 10/25/2017 01:36 am »
Probably only electric cars will be allowed on the sleds
It will be a number of years before fully electric cars make up a significant percentage of the fleet (not just of sales).
I was wondering about that too. How would an ICE car keep its HVAC operational without running the engine?

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #666 on: 10/25/2017 02:45 am »
Probably only electric cars will be allowed on the sleds
It will be a number of years before fully electric cars make up a significant percentage of the fleet (not just of sales).
I was wondering about that too. How would an ICE car keep its HVAC operational without running the engine?

Legacy vehicles had better hope the  tubes have central HVAC,  though that far down it's likely a steady 45-50°F +/-.

Electric driven HVAC has been produced and used in some cars since 2004, especially in hybrids.  Basically, an electric motor is built into the A/C compressor assembly for cooling, and  electric resistance or motor/battery coolant heat is used to heat the car.

Hybrids are taking over the IC car market due to mileage and pollution standards, so expect most cars to lose their A/C belts sooner than later. EV's also use electric HVAC.

« Last Edit: 10/25/2017 02:55 am by docmordrid »
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Offline Ludus

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #667 on: 10/25/2017 05:02 am »
Probably only electric cars will be allowed on the sleds
It will be a number of years before fully electric cars make up a significant percentage of the fleet (not just of sales).
I was wondering about that too. How would an ICE car keep its HVAC operational without running the engine?

It wouldn’t. The tunnel would have to be kept in a comfortable range, which wouldn’t be too difficult.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #668 on: 10/25/2017 08:35 pm »
Skate magic.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline garcianc

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #669 on: 10/26/2017 03:03 am »
There could be skates designed to support ICE vehicles and provide external services (i.e. HVAC). Those would be called ... wait for it... ICE skates.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #670 on: 10/26/2017 03:11 am »
There could be skates designed to support ICE vehicles and provide external services (i.e. HVAC). Those would be called ... wait for it... ICE skates.

If it's Elon's tunnel, only electric cars will be allowed. And I wouldn't be surprised if only Tesla cars were allowed on them to begin with because of "interface" requirements.

Regarding Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars, that just seems like they would be added complications, and would take longer to certify - as it is lithium batteries are already a fire hazard.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Ludus

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #671 on: 10/26/2017 04:17 am »
There could be skates designed to support ICE vehicles and provide external services (i.e. HVAC). Those would be called ... wait for it... ICE skates.

If it's Elon's tunnel, only electric cars will be allowed. And I wouldn't be surprised if only Tesla cars were allowed on them to begin with because of "interface" requirements.

Regarding Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars, that just seems like they would be added complications, and would take longer to certify - as it is lithium batteries are already a fire hazard.

The only way TBC gets paid back for these tunnels so far is charging tolls. The main effect as a proof of concept is how big a positive impact can the tunnel have on traffic. Both of these things are pretty powerful arguments for taking any vehicle that fits on a Skate. For relatively short tunnels it’s pretty much the reason for Skates. If it was OK to restrict the tunnel to electric vehicles the Skates wouldn’t be needed. Electric Skates let you take the existing mix of vehicles but still get the design advantages of only electrics allowed in the tunnel (smaller less well ventilated tunnels get practical).

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #672 on: 10/26/2017 05:57 am »
... and it's pretty hard to call it a toll when you're using a skate. It's more like a car ferry... what the industry calls a roll-on/roll-off... no idea what the standard American parlance is.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline RDoc

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #673 on: 10/26/2017 06:38 am »
It seems to me that if the tunnels are one way, the air circulation would be pretty much automatic. The moving cars act as vanes, and while there would be a need for input/output fans, not a lot I'd think.

Accepting all vehicles within a size/weight envelope does seem important to me to make it all financially viable. However, I also think that for urban transport, dedicated people moving skates will be the majority of the traffic. Otherwise, users have to figure out what to do with their cars once in the city. Good luck with that!

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #674 on: 10/26/2017 07:55 am »
The only way TBC gets paid back for these tunnels so far is charging tolls.
Initially, another possible way is by more Tesla sales, either by individuals or bulk purchases by taxi companies. Sort of like a bus lane or transit lane, but for electric cars. It could be a strategy specifically to drive electric car sales. Maybe later you phase in tolls, or the government takes on the costs, like roads.

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #675 on: 10/26/2017 10:34 am »
There could be skates designed to support ICE vehicles and provide external services (i.e. HVAC). Those would be called ... wait for it... ICE skates.

If it's Elon's tunnel, only electric cars will be allowed. And I wouldn't be surprised if only Tesla cars were allowed on them to begin with because of "interface" requirements.

Regarding Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars, that just seems like they would be added complications, and would take longer to certify - as it is lithium batteries are already a fire hazard.
I would think, since the tunnel system provides the transport and since the tunnel HAS to be ventilated (this is not an option - it’s not just combustion byproducts that drive this requirement), the transported vehicles’ ICE will be required to be off. It would be foolish to design a system that is motor biased (size restricted sure, but not based on motor).
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Offline philw1776

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #676 on: 10/26/2017 02:30 pm »
There could be skates designed to support ICE vehicles and provide external services (i.e. HVAC). Those would be called ... wait for it... ICE skates.

If it's Elon's tunnel, only electric cars will be allowed. And I wouldn't be surprised if only Tesla cars were allowed on them to begin with because of "interface" requirements.

Regarding Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars, that just seems like they would be added complications, and would take longer to certify - as it is lithium batteries are already a fire hazard.
I would think, since the tunnel system provides the transport and since the tunnel HAS to be ventilated (this is not an option - it’s not just combustion byproducts that drive this requirement), the transported vehicles’ ICE will be required to be off. It would be foolish to design a system that is motor biased (size restricted sure, but not based on motor).

Makes sense.
I would expect tolls which would be waived for all electric vehicles.  Stimulates EV adoption.  Congruent with other corporate philosophies.
FULL SEND!!!!

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #677 on: 10/28/2017 07:57 pm »
Went out to the Maryland staging area today, took some pictures, and did some research.

Overall, nothing has happened.  They appear to have taken down the "The Boring Company" signs from the fence.  I guess it was causing too much attention.  :)

Attached are two pictures taken from the road.  The first is of the fenced-in portion.  The second is a nearby drainage pond just to orient you with current overhead views.  As far as I can tell, the staging area is on a 20 acre plot of land next to the KeyW building.

SDAT Real Property Database Record
Redfin property card showing the property outlines

Because the property is owned by an LLC named 7876 Milestone Parkway LLC, we cannot readily determine ownership.  The ownership of 7876 Milestone Parkway LLC may have changed hands, even though the owner of the land has remained 7876 Milestone Parkway LLC.  But the database record shows that the property last changed hands in 2014 for $1.85 million.

Interestingly, the land is zoned residential and it is across the street from a few houses.  I'm surprised that the Anne Arundel County government is allowing TBC to bore from there, given all the dump trucks that will be driving to and from 24-7.  They'll probably get some complaints from their neighbors...
« Last Edit: 10/28/2017 08:03 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #678 on: 10/28/2017 09:04 pm »
Maryland is a state that allows eminent domain direct use by federally-authorized railroad companies with a franchise in the state.  The group that is trying to build a maglev train from Washington DC to New York City bought an inactive Maryland railroad franchise just for this purpose.  Here's a Maryland Public Utility Commission filing discussing this.

Quote
A second set of issues presented by the Application is the division of regulatory authority between the Commission and Federal agencies with respect to the construction and operation of the proposed MAGLEV line. The Applicant essentially takes the position that the Commission’s only role in this process is to decide whether or not to allow BWR to acquire the franchise. Beyond this function, the Application states that jurisdiction over the construction of the line and its operation is vested exclusively in Federal agencies, particularly the Surface Transportation Board (“STB”)(siting, construction, rates and service) and the Federal Railroad Administration (“FRA”)(safety).  In general, Staff must concur with this opinion, since the Interstate Commerce Commission Termination Act vested the STB with exclusive jurisdiction over the construction and operation of railroads.  However, there is a significant carve out of jurisdiction remaining with the states, which is their ability to determine whether to delegate their eminent domain authority to a federally authorized railroad, and to determine if doing so serves the public convenience and necessity of the state’s residents.

§ 9-303(b) of the PUA authorizes a Maryland railroad company to condemn property needed for the construction of its facilities. The need for a delegation of the state’s eminent domain authority is likely one of the primary reasons why BWR filed the instant Application, since the Commission’s authorization to exercise a franchise is a necessary precondition for a Company to be considered a public service company. The Applicant admits this requirement in the Application. Staff does not believe it would serve the public interest and necessity to delegate eminent domain condemnation authority to BWR without some concession of continuing Commission jurisdiction by the Applicant.

In proceedings before the STB to determine whether and how the proposed MAGLEV line is constructed, the Commission and other interested Maryland state agencies will have the right to take part and provide their opinions. The STB is fully competent within its regulatory jurisdiction, and proceedings there are likely to be sufficient to ensure that Maryland’s interests are adequately protected. Nonetheless, the authorization to exercise a Maryland franchise is a privilege which the Commission may revoke, as well as confer, if the Commission finds that the continued exercise of the franchise by the current holder no longer serves the public convenience and necessity. If the Commission (or for that matter, the Maryland General Assembly) transfers the requested franchise to BWR, that grant should be conditioned upon the Applicant’s agreement to come before the Commission again at the Commission’s request, to address whatever concerns the Commission or other Maryland state agencies may have regarding the development and progress of the proposed MAGLEV line, or other issues relevant to the exercise of the franchise. In particular, Staff believes it would be reasonable to place an initial time limit of five to seven years on the franchise authorization, and require the Applicant to come before the Commission and demonstrate that significant progress has been made in the construction of the line, before the franchise is granted on a permanent basis.

http://webapp.psc.state.md.us/newIntranet/Casenum/NewIndex3_VOpenFile.cfm?filepath=C:%5CCasenum%5C9300-9399%5C9363%5CItem_14%5C%5C9363StaffComsFin122214(1).pdf

As far as I can tell, The Boring Company has not yet filed to transfer an inactive Maryland railroad franchise.

http://www.psc.state.md.us/official-filings/
« Last Edit: 10/28/2017 09:34 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline Callezetter

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #679 on: 10/28/2017 09:16 pm »
elonmusk: The Boring Company tunnel under LA

https://www.instagram.com/p/BazkWGvAsPJ/
 
He did it already?


« Last Edit: 10/28/2017 09:18 pm by Callezetter »

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