Author Topic: Elon The Boring Company  (Read 64766 times)

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #400 on: 05/18/2017 12:25 AM »
Aw, you figured out his evil plan:


Offline sanman

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #401 on: 05/18/2017 02:13 AM »
But seriously, if you could do this underground on Earth, then you could do it on the Moon, or Mars, or Titan. You have a template that can be applied elsewhere off-world.

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #402 on: 05/18/2017 05:34 AM »
There was a major crossover to Mars plans in the FAQ on the boring company:
<quote> What do you do with all that dirt?
In typical tunneling projects, excavated dirt is shipped offsite to disposal locations. This process is costly, time-consuming, noisy, and can be environmentally hazardous. The Boring Company is investigating technologies that will recycle the earth into useful bricks to be used to build structures.  This is not a new concept, as buildings have been constructed from Earth for thousands of years including, according to recent evidence, the Pyramids.  These bricks can potentially be used as a portion of the tunnel lining itself, which is typically built from concrete. Since concrete production accounts for 4.5% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions, earth bricks would reduce both environmental impact and tunneling costs. </quote>

So in addition to boring the tunnels construction materials will be created ISRU style.



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Offline sanman

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #403 on: 05/19/2017 02:33 AM »
Does anyone know offhand how tunneling conditions would vary between the Earth, Moon and Mars?

Like say, would a lower gravity environment mean the dirt is less packed, and thus less solid? Does it mean there is less separation of heavier minerals from lighter ones? Does it mean there can be more trapped gas pockets or voids?

Could underground caverns be built much larger while requiring less reinforcement, because of reduced gravitational loads?

Offline DOCinCT

Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #404 on: 05/20/2017 06:45 PM »
Well, one huge unspoken issue with tunnels is the need for proper ventilation. Granted electric vehicles / sleds presents far fewer issues then combustion engines, but it's still a huge deal.

I am wondering if the motion of the vehicles in the tunnel could be used to push the air enough to ventilate the tunnel. Say at least one 'car' per minute. Also the ends of the segments would need proper design to expel air that the cars push into the station and inhale fresh air into the departing segment.
Another thought is that making the cars be encased in an aero-shell could reduce drag by 5 times or so. Of course more drag would increase the air moved.

Don't bother going underground if this is the rate.
 
Think two orders of magnitude higher (>100 cars/min per tunnel).
At 125km/hr, one car/min would have them spaced 2km apart.  At one car/sec, they'd be spaced 35m apart, so you could probably double that density (120cars/min).

At these rates, the tunnel air would be moving approximately the same speed as the cars, so just exhaust a portion and draw in make-up air.
Each tube of the NYC Lincoln Tunnel has typical traffic load of 40,000 cars per day (2 lanes wide). This works out to under 30 cars per min on average.  The tunnel uses a powered ventilation system to remove vehicle exhaust, potentially a complete change of air in under 2 mins.
Of course with an all electric system you would need less air changes.

Offline Long EZ

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #405 on: 05/21/2017 04:47 PM »
Well, one huge unspoken issue with tunnels is the need for proper ventilation. Granted electric vehicles / sleds presents far fewer issues then combustion engines, but it's still a huge deal.

I am wondering if the motion of the vehicles in the tunnel could be used to push the air enough to ventilate the tunnel. Say at least one 'car' per minute. Also the ends of the segments would need proper design to expel air that the cars push into the station and inhale fresh air into the departing segment.
Another thought is that making the cars be encased in an aero-shell could reduce drag by 5 times or so. Of course more drag would increase the air moved.

Don't bother going underground if this is the rate.
 
Think two orders of magnitude higher (>100 cars/min per tunnel).
At 125km/hr, one car/min would have them spaced 2km apart.  At one car/sec, they'd be spaced 35m apart, so you could probably double that density (120cars/min).

At these rates, the tunnel air would be moving approximately the same speed as the cars, so just exhaust a portion and draw in make-up air.
Each tube of the NYC Lincoln Tunnel has typical traffic load of 40,000 cars per day (2 lanes wide). This works out to under 30 cars per min on average.  The tunnel uses a powered ventilation system to remove vehicle exhaust, potentially a complete change of air in under 2 mins.
Of course with an all electric system you would need less air changes.

So the moving cars will cause the air in the tunnel to move also. I would guess at least 1/4 of the speed of the cars if you had 1 car per second. This is another advantage of small tunnels; the cars being a larger fraction of the tunnel area are more effective at pushing the air along. The exchange rate of air in the tunnel then becomes a function of the spacing of the air exit/entrance vents. Other factors that would come into play are elevation changes  between the tunnel ends, and surface pressure changes (surface winds). Warmed air in the tunnels would want to rise increasing the flow rate in the direction of higher elevation and vise versa. Also consider if the LA basin Santa Ana winds were blowing 100 km/hr (60 mph) or more. That would surely create a significant pressure difference along the length of the tunnel. Tunnel air exit/entrance vents would likely have to have fans for emergency ventilation, so perhaps they would need to be used at lower rates in extreme wind conditions.
Also could the exchange rate be lower at times of low usage such as late at night as compared with rush-hour conditions? So the rate of exchange would vary as would the need for it as a function of the traffic rate.
 

Offline sanman

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #406 on: 05/26/2017 10:13 PM »
The Boring Company has revealed some concept images of what these underground shuttle-cars would look like:


http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musks-boring-tunnel-electric-vehicle-2017-5








The transparent exterior seems noteworthy - are you going to get much of a view when you're surrounded by tunnel walls?
They depict people as either standing or sitting - would the kind of G-forces you'd feel in a vehicle traveling 125mph allow you to safely stand? That's a lot faster than a subway, and it could be undergoing various turns or stops.
« Last Edit: 05/26/2017 10:14 PM by sanman »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #407 on: 05/26/2017 10:50 PM »
They depict people as either standing or sitting - would the kind of G-forces you'd feel in a vehicle traveling 125mph allow you to safely stand? That's a lot faster than a subway, and it could be undergoing various turns or stops.

Speed doesn't matter so, as you say, it's all about those turns or stops. The skate would have to slow down on the corners and accelerate slowly on the straights. I had a thought that maybe it could accelerate more if no-one was standing, and cameras or other technology detect that. "Sit down Bob, and we'll get there faster!"

In regards to the transparency, I guess they intend to go above ground for the last mile.



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Offline sanman

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #408 on: 05/27/2017 02:23 AM »
Would there be any caveats for the same setup/architecture to work underground on the Moon or on Mars?

Offline RonM

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #409 on: 05/27/2017 03:02 AM »
Basically, Elon is reinventing the subway, bringing the concept into the 21st century. New tunneling machines to make the process cheaper so more lines can be built. Smaller cars for on demand use for more efficiency. Better systems to achieve higher speeds, assuming the straightaway run is long enough to keep the acceleration tolerable for standing passengers.

Other than the improvements, old subway or train design and engineering will be the same.

The differences implementing on other worlds would include the material to be tunneled, gravity, and how to handle breathable atmosphere (do you only pressurized the cars or the whole tunnel).


Offline FishInferno

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #410 on: 05/27/2017 03:05 AM »
The transparent exterior seems noteworthy - are you going to get much of a view when you're surrounded by tunnel walls?

People will feel less claustrophobic if the cars are transparent vs not, even if they do only get to see a tunnel wall.  Subways have windows and spend most of the time underground.  It would be pretty cool to see the tunnel walls racing past you.
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Online guckyfan

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #411 on: 05/27/2017 06:17 AM »
People will feel less claustrophobic if the cars are transparent vs not, even if they do only get to see a tunnel wall.  Subways have windows and spend most of the time underground.  It would be pretty cool to see the tunnel walls racing past you.

They would have to make tunnel walls and lighting in an appropriate way. Elon Musk was probably only half joking when he mentioned in his tweet that the video may cause seizures. Blinking lights at these frequencies can be unsettling. But I agree that seeing the outside has merit.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #412 on: 05/27/2017 06:29 AM »
People will feel less claustrophobic if the cars are transparent vs not, even if they do only get to see a tunnel wall.  Subways have windows and spend most of the time underground.  It would be pretty cool to see the tunnel walls racing past you.

They would have to make tunnel walls and lighting in an appropriate way.

In New York City subways the light from the cars does produce enough light to see the subway tunnels. And though they do have some lighting in the subway tunnels intermittently, I suspect that is for the tunnel workers, not the riders.
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Offline hkultala

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #413 on: 05/27/2017 07:15 AM »
The Boring Company has revealed some concept images of what these underground shuttle-cars would look like:


http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musks-boring-tunnel-electric-vehicle-2017-5








The transparent exterior seems noteworthy - are you going to get much of a view when you're surrounded by tunnel walls?
They depict people as either standing or sitting - would the kind of G-forces you'd feel in a vehicle traveling 125mph allow you to safely stand? That's a lot faster than a subway, and it could be undergoing various turns or stops.

The floor/rails of the tunnel can be banked on turns so that the g-forces always point into the floor when travelling at the designed speed.

Though this does not solve g-forces on intersections and acceleration/deceleration.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #414 on: 05/27/2017 08:39 PM »
Copenhagen Metro, driverless trains, nice view from the front seats...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOLWlH6qRGw#t=2m33s
« Last Edit: 05/27/2017 08:46 PM by Oersted »

Offline Ludus

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #415 on: 05/28/2017 03:30 PM »
The Boring Company has revealed some concept images of what these underground shuttle-cars would look like:


http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musks-boring-tunnel-electric-vehicle-2017-5








The transparent exterior seems noteworthy - are you going to get much of a view when you're surrounded by tunnel walls?
They depict people as either standing or sitting - would the kind of G-forces you'd feel in a vehicle traveling 125mph allow you to safely stand? That's a lot faster than a subway, and it could be undergoing various turns or stops.

There isn't any comment from The Boring Company on what this depicts, but it could also depict an Urban Transport Pod that's something like a sleeker version of the Olli (Local Motors) that has its own wheels, motors and battery shown using a Skate just like any other vehicle. In that case this isn't a specialized vehicle for the tunnel system, it just illustrates how the Skates and tunnels integrate with Urban Mass Transport as well as cars. The Pod would roll on and roll off the Skate and proceed on surface streets as an independent vehicle.

If this is the case, the Transport Pod would normally travel on surface streets at fairly low speed but could also use the Skates and tunnels for higher speed longer distances in the city or even use Hyperloop as depicted in the Dubai Hyperloop video.

This is a sort of containerization of human transport.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #416 on: 05/28/2017 05:47 PM »
The bottom part is the same as the tunnel skate.
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Offline TripD

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #417 on: 05/28/2017 09:51 PM »
It is difficult to make out from the images, but if the enclosed glass portion is it's own vehicle, then the back of the skate must flip down like a tailgate/ramp.  I just don't see any sign of a seam.
« Last Edit: 05/29/2017 02:32 AM by TripD »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #418 on: 05/28/2017 09:53 PM »
The glass part is integrated into the skate, they do not seem like separate vehicles at all. These are clearly just concept sketches, but they clearly show the glass pod as integrated with the skate.
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Offline meekGee

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #419 on: 05/28/2017 10:17 PM »
The glass part is integrated into the skate, they do not seem like separate vehicles at all. These are clearly just concept sketches, but they clearly show the glass pod as integrated with the skate.

Yup.  This sketch shows that while skates can take cars, skates will also be people carriers.

So what's the difference between a skate and a car?

The skate, unlike a car, is optimized to travel only on one type of road, so the suspension is completely different, very low ground clearance, probably limited turn radius, wider than a car and optimized to the lane width, etc.
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