Author Topic: Elon The Boring Company  (Read 65084 times)

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #40 on: 01/30/2017 07:37 PM »
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Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #41 on: 01/30/2017 07:56 PM »
Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory report LA-4547: Preliminary study of the nuclear subterrene:

Interesting quote from that article.

Quote
Initial Field Tests. It has already been demonstrated that a melting penetrator can produce holes in rocks at usefully high rates and with moderate energy consumption.  A gasoline-driven, 300-hp generator can produce the electrical energy required to melt a hole 25 cm in diameter through igneous rock at 100 m/day.

Using a conversion rate of 1 hp = 740 watts (and assuming a perfectly efficient gasoline generator), the power required is 224 kW.  According to the article, igneous rock melts at around 1,200 degrees Celsius.

Edit:  Boring a 15-meter diameter tunnel, such as would be needed for autos, would require an entire electric plant's worth of power.  But a 2.23-meter diameter tunnel for a hyperloop might be more doable.  The power requirements seem to place it off limits for near-term Mars tunnel boring, at least for creating habitats.

I guess they could try doing it using more than one tunnel boring machine in succession to break down the power requirements into more manageable chunks.
« Last Edit: 01/30/2017 09:25 PM by RedLineTrain »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #42 on: 01/30/2017 10:04 PM »
A picture from this morning's Today Show.

http://imgur.com/iHQshpU

Here's the Today Show segment, which shows inside the hole.  Not very deep, but it looks like they have driven the piles.

http://www.today.com/video/elon-musk-may-be-digging-a-tunnel-to-avoid-la-traffic-865803843882

Here's the location...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B055'19.5%22N+118%C2%B019'33.7%22W/
« Last Edit: 01/30/2017 10:16 PM by RedLineTrain »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #43 on: 01/30/2017 11:20 PM »
Is this Musk's Glomar Explorer?
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Offline launchwatcher

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #44 on: 01/31/2017 12:18 AM »
Is this Musk's Glomar Explorer?
If so, what would he be salvaging?
« Last Edit: 01/31/2017 12:18 AM by launchwatcher »

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #45 on: 01/31/2017 12:28 AM »
The city father's must be in on it, or part of it. Has anyone checked the Hawthorne permits site? Is there one?
« Last Edit: 01/31/2017 12:28 AM by docmordrid »
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Offline nacnud

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #46 on: 01/31/2017 03:51 AM »
He is building a giant sand pit to practice being boring in.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #47 on: 01/31/2017 06:55 AM »
From SpaceX employee:

Quote
There is now a hole in our parking lot.  I wish there was something less "boring" to report.  Maybe they will find a mammoth.

https://twitter.com/spaceabhi/status/826120162382196736

Offline JamesH65

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #48 on: 01/31/2017 09:18 AM »
I suspect that, really, they are just digging a tunnel under the road with standard equipment.

But I also wonder if Musk has got a few ideas ready to go for improve boring speed. He obviously thinks there is room for improvement. I was wondering if a combination of heat and high frequency sound (ultrasound) might work to crumble the rock. You still need conveyors to remove the debris of course.

Maybe a ring of 'heat' (lasers, plasma cutters/lances etc) around the outside of the tunnel to melt and seal, then sound waves to pummel the interior, perhaps with physical bashing as well.


Offline guckyfan

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #49 on: 01/31/2017 09:27 AM »
Maybe a combination of heat and CO2 snow sprayed on.

Online Hotblack Desiato

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #50 on: 01/31/2017 10:27 AM »
Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory report LA-4547: Preliminary study of the nuclear subterrene:

Interesting quote from that article.

Quote
Initial Field Tests. It has already been demonstrated that a melting penetrator can produce holes in rocks at usefully high rates and with moderate energy consumption.  A gasoline-driven, 300-hp generator can produce the electrical energy required to melt a hole 25 cm in diameter through igneous rock at 100 m/day.

Using a conversion rate of 1 hp = 740 watts (and assuming a perfectly efficient gasoline generator), the power required is 224 kW.  According to the article, igneous rock melts at around 1,200 degrees Celsius.

Edit:  Boring a 15-meter diameter tunnel, such as would be needed for autos, would require an entire electric plant's worth of power.  But a 2.23-meter diameter tunnel for a hyperloop might be more doable.  The power requirements seem to place it off limits for near-term Mars tunnel boring, at least for creating habitats.

I guess they could try doing it using more than one tunnel boring machine in succession to break down the power requirements into more manageable chunks.

What about a similar tunnel for road traffic and subway lines?

Cars may just require a tunnel with such a radius, especially if they are running on electric power only. One tunnel per lane, with automatic guiding system, meaning that the drivers don't have to do anything.

Subway lines have a similar diameter, maybe a little bit wider, but not much.

Or maybe Musk is going for a more "traditional" design


Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #51 on: 01/31/2017 03:56 PM »
The city father's must be in on it, or part of it. Has anyone checked the Hawthorne permits site? Is there one?

I could not find an online database for Hawthorne.  LA County has one, but apparently it only covers unincorporated areas.

The Daily Breeze says that SpaceX has a permit "to dig a very wide tunnel 50 feet below ground; it will only traverse Crenshaw Boulevard to SpaceX’s employee parking structure, but Musk has repeatedly said he has much bigger tunnel ambitions."

Perhaps he is thinking of using different alloys in order to make stronger drill bits, etc.
« Last Edit: 01/31/2017 03:57 PM by RedLineTrain »

Offline Hobbes-22

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #52 on: 01/31/2017 05:11 PM »

Perhaps he is thinking of using different alloys in order to make stronger drill bits, etc.

That would be low-hanging fruit, unlikely that current TBM manufacturers haven't thought of that.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #53 on: 01/31/2017 06:04 PM »

Interesting quote from that article.
Using a conversion rate of 1 hp = 740 watts (and assuming a perfectly efficient gasoline generator), the power required is 224 kW.  According to the article, igneous rock melts at around 1,200 degrees Celsius.

Edit:  Boring a 15-meter diameter tunnel, such as would be needed for autos, would require an entire electric plant's worth of power.  But a 2.23-meter diameter tunnel for a hyperloop might be more doable.  The power requirements seem to place it off limits for near-term Mars tunnel boring, at least for creating habitats.

I guess they could try doing it using more than one tunnel boring machine in succession to break down the power requirements into more manageable chunks.
The Los Alamos report was looking at something around a 25MW nuclear reactor. Note the subterrene's strategy was just to melt the edge of cylinder, then either crush the (greatly) weakened cylinder of rock with conventional cutters or multiple hot "spikes" to crack hard rock with thermal shock.
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Offline docmordrid

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #54 on: 01/31/2017 07:03 PM »
That would fit with his statement at the Hyperloop event they were buying a machine and will tear it down for improvements. The question is, what kind of machine?
« Last Edit: 01/31/2017 07:04 PM by docmordrid »
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Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #55 on: 01/31/2017 07:24 PM »

Perhaps he is thinking of using different alloys in order to make stronger drill bits, etc.

That would be low-hanging fruit, unlikely that current TBM manufacturers haven't thought of that.

I wonder about that.  Construction is a famously conservative industry.  And even in the aerospace world, novel alloys seem to be considered very exotic.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #56 on: 01/31/2017 07:38 PM »
Note the subterrene's strategy was just to melt the edge of cylinder, then either crush the (greatly) weakened cylinder of rock with conventional cutters or multiple hot "spikes" to crack hard rock with thermal shock.

Only initially.  The proposal in the paper was to melt the entire rock face and create a tube via lithofracturing that would eliminate the need for getting rid of waste materials.

Offline meekGee

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #57 on: 01/31/2017 08:08 PM »
Note the subterrene's strategy was just to melt the edge of cylinder, then either crush the (greatly) weakened cylinder of rock with conventional cutters or multiple hot "spikes" to crack hard rock with thermal shock.

Only initially.  The proposal in the paper was to melt the entire rock face and create a tube via lithofracturing that would eliminate the need for getting rid of waste materials.

Where would all the volume of rock go?
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Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #58 on: 01/31/2017 08:17 PM »
Where would all the volume of rock go?

From a random textbook...

Quote from: A. Roberts, Applied Geotechnology, 1981
The principle of lithofracture is to inject the melt into fissures and cracks in the surrounding rock wall

If there are not enough fissures and cracks, then you create them using techniques honed long ago in the oil and gas industry.
« Last Edit: 01/31/2017 08:23 PM by RedLineTrain »

Offline meekGee

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #59 on: 01/31/2017 09:01 PM »
Where would all the volume of rock go?

From a random textbook...

Quote from: A. Roberts, Applied Geotechnology, 1981
The principle of lithofracture is to inject the melt into fissures and cracks in the surrounding rock wall

If there are not enough fissures and cracks, then you create them using techniques honed long ago in the oil and gas industry.
How much volume is represented by such cracks?  Is the rock even 5% vacant?

Because molten rock will cool as you inject into fissures in the wall.  The smaller the fissures, the faster it will cool.

I'm all for sealing the walls, but I think the bulk of the volume will have to be carried out.
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