Author Topic: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?  (Read 30346 times)

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #140 on: 02/19/2017 11:20 PM »
Matt we don't need a bigger NASA budget. What we need is fiscal responsibility in the use of that budget; things like not giving a dime of it to companies with a decades-long history of sucking it dry and then asking for more, without actually producing what they were contracted for.

Matt we don't need a pony. What we need is a unicorn.


I thought Elon was going to give us all a pony?! And an electric one at that...
« Last Edit: 02/20/2017 04:28 AM by MATTBLAK »
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Online nacnud

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #141 on: 02/19/2017 11:23 PM »

Offline TakeOff

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #142 on: 02/23/2017 04:05 AM »
Getting rid of the useless Orion and launching the crew with a proven Falcon 9 and Dragon (or Atlas V and Starliner) would help. SLS isn't designed to launch astronauts, wasn't that acknowledged already by the Ares I?

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #143 on: 02/23/2017 04:24 AM »
Getting rid of the useless Orion and launching the crew with a proven Falcon 9 and Dragon (or Atlas V and Starliner) would help. SLS isn't designed to launch astronauts, wasn't that acknowledged already by the Ares I?

SLS is specifically designed to be a crew rated vehicle in its final form. Initial versions of the vehicle may have some parts are not fully crew rated. For example EM-1 will be using a non crew rated ICPS (needs to have abort detection hardware and software added), Orion (ECLSS is not complete) and LAS (inert abort motor).
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #144 on: 02/23/2017 08:41 AM »
Getting rid of the useless Orion and launching the crew with a proven Falcon 9 and Dragon (or Atlas V and Starliner) would help. SLS isn't designed to launch astronauts, wasn't that acknowledged already by the Ares I?
There is no proven crew dragon and F9 would put Dragon LAS to test a couple times now.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #145 on: 02/23/2017 11:58 PM »
How much more will be spent on Orion and getting it on SLS? If it truly is redundant for a lunar mission (and I really don't see how it is) then it seems like you could make an argument for directing those funds to SLS.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline quanthasaquality

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #146 on: 03/06/2017 04:48 AM »
Fine, SLS to LEO, NASA contracted SEP from LEO to LLO. Ukrainian hypogolic lunar lander. lunar modules made by Bigelow Aerospace. Talk with Russia and ESA to determine where to land, and which scientific missions to focus on.

Offline bad_astra

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #147 on: 03/22/2017 01:39 PM »
in 8 years some work for a full-time outpost could be set up remotely. Maybe not ISRU, (although that should be looked at as well) but possibly the supply caches, equipment and even some excavation work for a moon base. It might be worth revisiting ideas from Project Promethius to have a compact reactor in place.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline hkultala

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #148 on: 03/22/2017 02:17 PM »
SLS isn't designed to launch astronauts, wasn't that acknowledged already by the Ares I?

You are confusing Ares V with SLS. They are totally different things. SLS is designed to launch astronauts, just the delta IV-derived underpowered upper stage of the first launch is not crew rated, all the proper later upper stages will be.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #149 on: 03/22/2017 05:57 PM »
SLS isn't designed to launch astronauts, wasn't that acknowledged already by the Ares I?

You are confusing Ares V with SLS. They are totally different things. SLS is designed to launch astronauts, just the delta IV-derived underpowered upper stage of the first launch is not crew rated, all the proper later upper stages will be.
A Note is that the EUS has only passed the PDR in Jan 2017 and not yet made it to CDR meaning only the outline and requirements exist not the detail design. CDR is not usually any sooner than 6 months after PDR for complex systems. EUS CDR is likely to be next year or even later in 2019. After CDR it should not take more than 2 years to build the first flight EUS. Putting it ready by sometime in 2021 for acceptance testing.

But indeed one of the baseline requirements is that it be designed to Human Rating standards.

So at the moment the LV for EM-2 is still being designed and once the stage is designed then the pad and VAB changes must be designed.
« Last Edit: 03/22/2017 06:06 PM by oldAtlas_Eguy »

Offline ThereIWas3

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #150 on: 03/22/2017 07:07 PM »
Just because SLS is designed to carry humans does not require that it be used that way.  All the safer for those expensive unmanned missions to Europa, etc.
"If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea" - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #151 on: 07/06/2017 08:12 PM »
Today (6 June 2017) the Vice President of the USA gave a speech in which he said he wants the USA to go to both the Moon and Mars. Without Apollo levels of spending that cannot occur during Trump's reign. However NASA can reach some major milestones before 2016+4+4 = 2024.

During Trump's first 4 year term Lunar CATALYST should result in small commercial landers landing on the Moon. If at least one of them has produced a lander that can fly then public relations will have no difficulty showing NASA as a proud parent with its children.

Cancellation of the Shuttle flights may have cost the USA its leadership in space but COTS, CCDev and Lunar CATALYST means NASA has recovered from its injuries and is back in the space race. Building the Deep Space Gateway will show the USA and NASA are great again.

NASA has shown a high level plan to build the DSG with 4 SLS launches. The launches would has a 10 tonne module and an Orion. 10 tonnes of payload is not worthy of the SLS - it is less than the Atlas V can launch to LEO. According to Wikipedia Orions mass 25,848 kg. So SLS can lift at least 10 + 25.8 = 35.8 tonne to cis-lunar space. For about 35 tonnes an adequate space station can be built. It would have to be Spartan and, as real estate agents say, bejou.

The entire DSG could be launched on EM-2 or EM-3 in 2022. Over the next year the ion thrusters could be used to correct the orbit. The Orion and crew can be launched on the next EM flight.

Later Orion on SLS flights can deliver a reusable manned lunar lander and parts for Mars Transfer Vehicles. NASA can then again go where no man has gone before.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #152 on: 07/07/2017 01:16 AM »
The modular configuration of DSG would make it difficult to fit one flight. Then it would need assembling without human assistance. Orion would miss out on it uncrewed EM2 flight.
Having assembly spread over a few flights with crew spreads costs, gives more crew flight which is point of SLS/orion.

As each module is assemble crew can check it out, if problems can't be resolved then, they should have parts and fix for following mission.

They hope to deliver service module on unmanned EM2, EM3 would deliver habitat module on first crew mission. In theory 42day stay should be possible on EM3.
« Last Edit: 07/07/2017 01:18 AM by TrevorMonty »

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #153 on: 07/07/2017 04:23 AM »
The modular configuration of DSG would make it difficult to fit one flight. Then it would need assembling without human assistance. Orion would miss out on it uncrewed EM2 flight.
Having assembly spread over a few flights with crew spreads costs, gives more crew flight which is point of SLS/orion.

As each module is assemble crew can check it out, if problems can't be resolved then, they should have parts and fix for following mission.

They hope to deliver service module on unmanned EM2, EM3 would deliver habitat module on first crew mission. In theory 42day stay should be possible on EM3.


I assume the modules would be fitted together on the ground so little inspace assembly is needed. The modules may need mini inter-stages to take the G forces. The contents would need unpacking.

The mission associated with each EM numbers would change. The Orion's second manned flight could still have a 42day stay.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #154 on: 07/07/2017 05:58 AM »
Currently it would be
EM2 Unmanned + service module
EM3 manned + habitat
Em4 manned + module (not sure which)
EM5 manned + module.

4 flights, 3 of which are manned and DSG is being used on first manned flight.

Your plan is.
EM2 DSG
EM3 Unmanned Orion
EM4 manned
EM5 Manned

Lose one crew flight and use of DSG is put back by a year. With maybe 3x 10t of surplus capacity not used

« Last Edit: 07/07/2017 06:05 AM by TrevorMonty »

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #155 on: 07/07/2017 09:10 PM »
Currently it would be
EM2 Unmanned + service module
EM3 manned + habitat
Em4 manned + module (not sure which)
EM5 manned + module.

4 flights, 3 of which are manned and DSG is being used on first manned flight.

Your plan is.
EM2 DSG
EM3 Unmanned Orion
EM4 manned
EM5 Manned

Lose one crew flight and use of DSG is put back by a year. With maybe 3x 10t of surplus capacity not used

Currently the long poll for the EM2 is the Orion. So depending on how long it takes to develop the DSG the unmanned Orion may launch on the same date.

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #156 on: 07/08/2017 02:18 AM »
Currently it would be
EM2 Unmanned + service module
EM3 manned + habitat
Em4 manned + module (not sure which)
EM5 manned + module.

4 flights, 3 of which are manned and DSG is being used on first manned flight.

Your plan is.
EM2 DSG
EM3 Unmanned Orion
EM4 manned
EM5 Manned

Lose one crew flight and use of DSG is put back by a year. With maybe 3x 10t of surplus capacity not used

Boeing published in GLEX 2017:
EM-5, MoonLander

Offline Hop_David

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #157 on: 07/08/2017 11:31 PM »
The financial year 2017 Budget for the US Government contains wording that suggests NASA should target the Moon. Since each president has his own views on missions to the Moon or Mars IMHO there may only about 8 years before this changes again. NASA may get a small budget but a big one is unlikely.

What can we do in these 8 years?

At one time it was thought Bridenstine was on Trump's short list for NASA administrator.

Bridenstine has been advocating formation of a Space Council. Trump's recent executive order might indicate Bridenstine's voice is still in the mix when it comes to Trump space policy

Bridenstine has a Spudis influenced vision of lunar development. He hopes to develop infrastructure at the lunar poles and exploit the volatile ices in the cold traps.

I should know better than to get my hopes up. But I'm a bona fide space cadet and therefore prone to unjustified optimism.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2017 11:32 PM by Hop_David »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #158 on: 07/09/2017 09:59 AM »
I think there will be push for robotic exploration and exploitation of polar ice. NASA funded human missions before 2025 is not likely.

Commercial tourism mission may happen before 2025, Bezos definitely has moon in his sights and has money and Blue to make it happen.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Eight year Moon mission. What can we do?
« Reply #159 on: 07/09/2017 08:27 PM »
Until such time that commercial actually does manned cis-Lunar operations the government will push and fund its own implementation for manned cis-Lunar operations. But once commercial is operational what happens to the government program's funding. Does it go away? Does it start to purchase commercial flights? Other in-space vehicle developments?

The answers to these questions in the universe where commercial manned cis-Lunar operations exists in the near future <4 years, is that the focus indicated by the recent speech would be on manned cis-Lunar/Mars missions and in-space manned hardware developments. Purchase of transport of personnel and cargo to cis-Lunar space from commercial services sources and also programs that develop in-space manned exploration hardware. The budget amount would likely remain ~$3B/yr but would be going to different programs than current. The current program in that environment would not be politically feasible.

Edit: fixed auto correct mistakes. Must have had low blood sugar while typing  :o
« Last Edit: 07/10/2017 03:07 PM by oldAtlas_Eguy »

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