Author Topic: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO  (Read 148137 times)

Offline Star One

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #100 on: 02/12/2016 07:08 pm »

And no coincident neutrinos were detected by either Antares (the neutrino detector, not the rocket :) ) or ICECube:

https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0123/P1500271/013/GW150914_neutrino.pdf (paper)
http://icecube.wisc.edu/news/view/398

PS: I just saw the same links posted in the "Space Science" subforum thread. I will keep these here, but if they are merged my posts are redundant since I wrote them several hours after the other guys'. Moderators please delete this and the previous post if you're merging the treads.

Just shows that GW really can detect things nothing else can.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #101 on: 02/13/2016 08:28 am »
Guess the communication satellite days are numbered.
And I can feel the change in the wind right now - Rod Stewart

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #102 on: 02/13/2016 08:54 am »
Guess the communication satellite days are numbered.

Not until someone invents a cheap and reliable way to create detectable gravity waves here on Earth.  ;)

Offline spirytus

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #103 on: 02/18/2016 12:24 am »
excuse my ignorance but isn't  this a confirmation for space time warp  in macro scale(instead of micro) for which dr. white was looking for in egale works for warp drive potential

or is it different kind of warp of space time?
is it a little step forward or no relevance at all?

The metric derived by Alcubierre was mathematically motivated by cosmological inflation
so this would by much more solid  proof of concept if i understand it correctly
of course it doesn't give an answer if we could induce such a warp artificially
still dark matter /dark energy is just a hypothesis 
« Last Edit: 02/18/2016 12:32 am by spirytus »

Offline eeergo

Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #104 on: 02/18/2016 09:03 am »
LIGO-India has received initial approval!

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=136479

(I post this here since the new facility falls more under the "Advanced Physics" rather than Space Science thread)
-DaviD-

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #105 on: 02/18/2016 10:48 am »
Another article
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/gravitational-waves-einstein-s-ripples-spacetime-spotted-first-time

This is so exciting. We might finally be getting closer to understanding how and what gravity actually is. If we can crack that nut it may eventually be possible for us to get to make artificial gravity a thing. That would have HUGE impacts for our entire civilization, but the biggest hurdle so far has even been understanding how gravity works and what exactly gravity is. Now we are solving that. Congratulations to the LIGO teams!
Currently, we are finding that the "graviton" is basically massless. This basically confirms our theories. So far, this LIGO detection is pounding more nails in the coffin of the idea of artificial gravity and other hypothetical phenomenon that require new physics. We HOPE new discoveries start to pull some of those nails out, but the recent announcement was another one pounded in.

But you're rather forgetting that quantum physics also appears, through increasing experimental evidence, to do lots of things that Einstein really didn't like. I am more confident that this realm will be the one where things will get interesting.

Robotbeat isn't forgetting anything.  Everyone knows that quantum physics and relativity/gravity are separate theories that describe different domains and we don't have a compelling theory to combine them.  It's irrelevant to his point.

His point is that the LIGO data simply confirms the most widely held theories, so it in of itself simply rules out some of the more esoteric theories and doesn't do much to lead us to new ground.

New experimental results that are a surprise are much more useful to get us to understand things we didn't understand before.  The LIGO results aren't a surprise.  They're the opposite.  We turned over another rock and found exactly what we expected.  We'll keep turning over rocks, looking for surprises, and the LIGO hardware might yet help us find surprises under different rocks, but so far, no surprises, and no help toward new physics.

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #106 on: 02/18/2016 11:01 am »
Another article
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/gravitational-waves-einstein-s-ripples-spacetime-spotted-first-time

This is so exciting. We might finally be getting closer to understanding how and what gravity actually is. If we can crack that nut it may eventually be possible for us to get to make artificial gravity a thing. That would have HUGE impacts for our entire civilization, but the biggest hurdle so far has even been understanding how gravity works and what exactly gravity is. Now we are solving that. Congratulations to the LIGO teams!
Currently, we are finding that the "graviton" is basically massless. This basically confirms our theories. So far, this LIGO detection is pounding more nails in the coffin of the idea of artificial gravity and other hypothetical phenomenon that require new physics. We HOPE new discoveries start to pull some of those nails out, but the recent announcement was another one pounded in.

But you're rather forgetting that quantum physics also appears, through increasing experimental evidence, to do lots of things that Einstein really didn't like. I am more confident that this realm will be the one where things will get interesting.

Robotbeat isn't forgetting anything.  Everyone knows that quantum physics and relativity/gravity are separate theories that describe different domains and we don't have a compelling theory to combine them.  It's irrelevant to his point.

His point is that the LIGO data simply confirms the most widely held theories, so it in of itself simply rules out some of the more esoteric theories and doesn't do much to lead us to new ground.

New experimental results that are a surprise are much more useful to get us to understand things we didn't understand before.  The LIGO results aren't a surprise.  They're the opposite.  We turned over another rock and found exactly what we expected.  We'll keep turning over rocks, looking for surprises, and the LIGO hardware might yet help us find surprises under different rocks, but so far, no surprises, and no help toward new physics.
There are four natural forces in the Universe. Electromagnetic, Strong Nuclear, Weak Nuclear, and Gravitational.

Humans currently have a fairly decent mastery of the Electromagnetic force, some mastery of the strong and weak nuclear forces, though incomplete (commonplace power generating fusion reactors are still in development), and absolutely no control and limited knowledge of Gravitational.

Throughout our history we were not able to harness any of these without first gaining a more or less complete understanding of what they actually were, and how they worked in nature. To any extent, even limited use such as a nuclear weapon.

My point here was that the only shred of hope mankind will ever have of trying to master Gravity is to gain a total and full understanding of how it works in nature, and working backwards from there. That historically, is how we have gotten this far, up until now. This doesn't mean it is ultimately, or will ultimately be possible to actually gain any control over gravity under the processes by which this Universe operates, all it means is that you 100% can't without first understanding the natural force in its normal domain. THAT to me is why experiments and programs like this one, and this discovery, are so important. The more we know about the natural state the better equipped we become, if there is ever a chance of manipulating it.
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Offline Star One

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #107 on: 02/18/2016 01:15 pm »

Another article
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/gravitational-waves-einstein-s-ripples-spacetime-spotted-first-time

This is so exciting. We might finally be getting closer to understanding how and what gravity actually is. If we can crack that nut it may eventually be possible for us to get to make artificial gravity a thing. That would have HUGE impacts for our entire civilization, but the biggest hurdle so far has even been understanding how gravity works and what exactly gravity is. Now we are solving that. Congratulations to the LIGO teams!
Currently, we are finding that the "graviton" is basically massless. This basically confirms our theories. So far, this LIGO detection is pounding more nails in the coffin of the idea of artificial gravity and other hypothetical phenomenon that require new physics. We HOPE new discoveries start to pull some of those nails out, but the recent announcement was another one pounded in.

But you're rather forgetting that quantum physics also appears, through increasing experimental evidence, to do lots of things that Einstein really didn't like. I am more confident that this realm will be the one where things will get interesting.

Robotbeat isn't forgetting anything.  Everyone knows that quantum physics and relativity/gravity are separate theories that describe different domains and we don't have a compelling theory to combine them.  It's irrelevant to his point.

His point is that the LIGO data simply confirms the most widely held theories, so it in of itself simply rules out some of the more esoteric theories and doesn't do much to lead us to new ground.

New experimental results that are a surprise are much more useful to get us to understand things we didn't understand before.  The LIGO results aren't a surprise.  They're the opposite.  We turned over another rock and found exactly what we expected.  We'll keep turning over rocks, looking for surprises, and the LIGO hardware might yet help us find surprises under different rocks, but so far, no surprises, and no help toward new physics.

I have seen a few articles since that have said this discovery opens the door to the possibility of artificial gravity down the line which is the exact opposite to his original claim.

Offline Rodal

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #108 on: 02/18/2016 01:20 pm »
More information on the very interesting and unexpected Gamma Ray Burst that the Fermi observatory detected "with a false alarm probability of 0.0022"  ( http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39297.msg1490954#msg1490954 ), and that *may* be associated with the gravitational wave event GW150914

Quote
You could get a gamma-ray burst if the two black holes were enveloped inside a very massive star. “It’s sort of like a pregnant woman with twins in her belly,” Once the black holes merged, the star would collapse and trigger intense beams of gamma rays. For that to happen, the two black holes would have to have formed inside an extremely massive star a few hundred times heftier than the sun. As the star exhausted its nuclear fuel, its core began to collapse. Normally that would form a single black hole. But if the star were rotating very fast, centrifugal force would stretch the collapsing core, shaping it into a dumbbell. Eventually, the dumbbell would snap into two cores, each of which would continue to collapse into its own black hole. "The only way to explain the Fermi signal is to surround the black holes with a lot of dense material"

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2077783-ligos-black-holes-may-have-lived-and-died-inside-a-huge-star/


On the other hand, observations made by the European "International Gamma-Ray Astrophysics Laboratory" (INTEGRAL) cannot corroborate the Fermi observatory Gamma Ray Burst http://arxiv.org/abs/1602.04180
« Last Edit: 02/18/2016 02:21 pm by Rodal »

Offline birchoff

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #109 on: 02/18/2016 04:24 pm »
excuse my ignorance but isn't  this a confirmation for space time warp  in macro scale(instead of micro) for which dr. white was looking for in egale works for warp drive potential

or is it different kind of warp of space time?
is it a little step forward or no relevance at all?

The metric derived by Alcubierre was mathematically motivated by cosmological inflation
so this would by much more solid  proof of concept if i understand it correctly
of course it doesn't give an answer if we could induce such a warp artificially
still dark matter /dark energy is just a hypothesis

At most this shows that the idea of manipulating space/time is possible. What it doesnt prove is that it is possible to do so with the energy humanity currently has the ability to apply. It took the merger of two black holes much larger than our sun respectively to generate the detected waves.

edit:

I would also add that the interferance signal pattern could probably be used to rule out false positives in white's experiment
« Last Edit: 02/18/2016 04:35 pm by birchoff »

Offline sanman

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #110 on: 02/18/2016 06:20 pm »
This is why atom interferometry has to be further developed, because it's the ideal tool to study Gravitational Waves. After all, gravity affects matter much more obviously than it affects light, and so interferometry based on particles of matter is the ideal way to study gravity in detail, and to characterize its behavior in as much detail as possible.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not belittling the engineering marvel that is LIGO, but the Physics community can only move towards newer and better discoveries by developing newer and better instruments.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #111 on: 02/18/2016 06:42 pm »
Didn't i read an article a while back that suggested an advanced gravity wave detector could be made to fit on a desktop?
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline sanman

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #112 on: 02/19/2016 03:46 am »
Didn't i read an article a while back that suggested an advanced gravity wave detector could be made to fit on a desktop?


That would probably have to be an atom inferometer, or even a molecular interferometer. C60 fullerenes were among the first to be used to generate interference patterns - but all sorts of other heavy molecules have been used, including even DNA. Here's an interference pattern generated from molecules of phthalocyanine:



So those molecules are even heavier than individual atoms, and so their DeBroglie wavelength is even smaller, thus affording even finer, more precise interferometry. And you don't need a giant sized LIGO apparatus to do it.

It's ironic that while we can't get General Relativity and Quantum theory to connect with each other, we can experimentally apply the knowledge given by quantum theory to detect miniscule changes in spacetime through DeBroglie wavelength.


Meanwhile, the US and India are collaborating to build INDIGO, a Gravitational Wave detector that will extend the LIGO network.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/02/india-to-get-a-ligo-detector-that-could-be-online-before-2025/
« Last Edit: 02/19/2016 05:25 am by sanman »

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #113 on: 02/19/2016 04:13 am »
i just remembered or think i remembered a detail about what i was talking about. i think it involved Bose Einstein condensate or something like that. this may have been it:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129603-500-desktop-quantum-cloud-to-hunt-elusive-space-time-waves/
« Last Edit: 02/19/2016 04:15 am by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline sanman

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #114 on: 02/19/2016 11:43 am »
Given that even planets orbiting stars produce Gravitational Waves, I'm wondering whether Gravitational Astronomy might one day be able to detect them.

Offline philw1776

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #115 on: 02/22/2016 12:17 am »
Given that even planets orbiting stars produce Gravitational Waves, I'm wondering whether Gravitational Astronomy might one day be able to detect them.

Many, many powers of ten orders of magnitude fainter than the waves barely detected by LIGO.
For example we are several orders of magnitude closer to detecting the visual electromagnetic images of such planets than their gravitational waves and are making far more rapid progress in that realm.

Conversely, just a few orders of magnitude improvements in gravitational wave detection or even less will bring us deep into uncharted territory.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #116 on: 02/23/2016 02:22 am »

Another article
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/gravitational-waves-einstein-s-ripples-spacetime-spotted-first-time

This is so exciting. We might finally be getting closer to understanding how and what gravity actually is. If we can crack that nut it may eventually be possible for us to get to make artificial gravity a thing. That would have HUGE impacts for our entire civilization, but the biggest hurdle so far has even been understanding how gravity works and what exactly gravity is. Now we are solving that. Congratulations to the LIGO teams!
Currently, we are finding that the "graviton" is basically massless. This basically confirms our theories. So far, this LIGO detection is pounding more nails in the coffin of the idea of artificial gravity and other hypothetical phenomenon that require new physics. We HOPE new discoveries start to pull some of those nails out, but the recent announcement was another one pounded in.

But you're rather forgetting that quantum physics also appears, through increasing experimental evidence, to do lots of things that Einstein really didn't like. I am more confident that this realm will be the one where things will get interesting.

Robotbeat isn't forgetting anything.  Everyone knows that quantum physics and relativity/gravity are separate theories that describe different domains and we don't have a compelling theory to combine them.  It's irrelevant to his point.

His point is that the LIGO data simply confirms the most widely held theories, so it in of itself simply rules out some of the more esoteric theories and doesn't do much to lead us to new ground.

New experimental results that are a surprise are much more useful to get us to understand things we didn't understand before.  The LIGO results aren't a surprise.  They're the opposite.  We turned over another rock and found exactly what we expected.  We'll keep turning over rocks, looking for surprises, and the LIGO hardware might yet help us find surprises under different rocks, but so far, no surprises, and no help toward new physics.

I have seen a few articles since that have said this discovery opens the door to the possibility of artificial gravity down the line which is the exact opposite to his original claim.
You're not trying very hard to convince me.
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Offline Star One

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #117 on: 02/23/2016 06:25 am »


Another article
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/gravitational-waves-einstein-s-ripples-spacetime-spotted-first-time

This is so exciting. We might finally be getting closer to understanding how and what gravity actually is. If we can crack that nut it may eventually be possible for us to get to make artificial gravity a thing. That would have HUGE impacts for our entire civilization, but the biggest hurdle so far has even been understanding how gravity works and what exactly gravity is. Now we are solving that. Congratulations to the LIGO teams!
Currently, we are finding that the "graviton" is basically massless. This basically confirms our theories. So far, this LIGO detection is pounding more nails in the coffin of the idea of artificial gravity and other hypothetical phenomenon that require new physics. We HOPE new discoveries start to pull some of those nails out, but the recent announcement was another one pounded in.

But you're rather forgetting that quantum physics also appears, through increasing experimental evidence, to do lots of things that Einstein really didn't like. I am more confident that this realm will be the one where things will get interesting.

Robotbeat isn't forgetting anything.  Everyone knows that quantum physics and relativity/gravity are separate theories that describe different domains and we don't have a compelling theory to combine them.  It's irrelevant to his point.

His point is that the LIGO data simply confirms the most widely held theories, so it in of itself simply rules out some of the more esoteric theories and doesn't do much to lead us to new ground.

New experimental results that are a surprise are much more useful to get us to understand things we didn't understand before.  The LIGO results aren't a surprise.  They're the opposite.  We turned over another rock and found exactly what we expected.  We'll keep turning over rocks, looking for surprises, and the LIGO hardware might yet help us find surprises under different rocks, but so far, no surprises, and no help toward new physics.

I have seen a few articles since that have said this discovery opens the door to the possibility of artificial gravity down the line which is the exact opposite to his original claim.
You're not trying very hard to convince me.

Tell that to the article writers.

Offline Star One

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #118 on: 02/23/2016 09:00 pm »
How gravitational wave detectors survived the Contract With America

Could a basic research project get funded now? Probably not, science advisor says.

Quote
Those were bitter political times, Lane said. After all, the Republican Congress would move to impeach Bill Clinton in a few years. But there were still Republicans and Democrats working across party lines on the appropriations process. Work was going on, staff to staff, principal to principal. Today, Lane doesn’t see that kind of cooperation, and it spells major trouble for any new programs a president might seek to fund, like construction of LIGO instruments.

“Never say never,” he said. “We should always hope, always try. I would just say the conditions are very different. Polarization is one thing. The other thing is the private sector some time ago—but even government now—is moving steadily toward short-term deliverables for everything. Expectations are not patient. If the President’s Office of Management and Budget sent this over today, I think you’d have a very hard time getting it through Congress.”

Lane is probably correct. On the very same day that physicists announced their spectacular findings in early February, the US House of Representatives passed legislation sponsored by Texas Republican Lamar Smith, HR3293, that allows the NSF to award grants only for research it can certify as being in the national interest, such as benefiting the economy or improving national defense.

“It really is an irony,” Lane said of the timing. A bitter one.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2016/02/how-gravitational-wave-detectors-survived-the-contract-with-america/

Offline Orbiter

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Re: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #119 on: 02/23/2016 09:20 pm »
Quote
Lane is probably correct. On the very same day that physicists announced their spectacular findings in early February, the US House of Representatives passed legislation sponsored by Texas Republican Lamar Smith, HR3293, that allows the NSF to award grants only for research it can certify as being in the national interest, such as benefiting the economy or improving national defense.

That's depressing. :(
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