Author Topic: Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO  (Read 40131 times)

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« on: 01/12/2016 01:43 PM »
So what does / can this mean for spaceflight?
Quote
Not for the first time, the world of physics is abuzz with rumours that gravitational waves have been detected by scientists in the US.

Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at Arizona State university, tweeted that he had received independent confirmation of a rumour that has been in circulation for months, adding: “Gravitational waves may have been discovered!!”

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/12/gravitation-waves-signal-rumoured-science?CMP=twt_gu
« Last Edit: 02/13/2016 09:42 AM by input~2 »
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Offline Graham

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ESA may have a much harder time justifying LISA
I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night
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Offline RonM

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So what does / can this mean for spaceflight?

Nothing, really.

It will be a great moment for science and another conformation of General Relativity. It will advance our knowledge of the universe as gravity wave observations can begin. All of this is at the very high end of energies that has nothing to do with new propulsion or anything else that would directly apply to spaceflight. The big news would be if someone found something that didn't match predictions and would lead to new physics. New physics, especially if it enables the combination of GR and quantum theory, might lead to new technologies that apply to spaceflight.

What to look for in the next few years are the results of observations by LIGO as they start gravity wave astronomy. Also the Event Horizon Telescope project where they are trying to see via radio telescopes the environment around our galaxy's central black hole. These will be the most strenuous tests of GR yet and if there are any deviations from GR in these observations, that might lead to new physics.

http://www.eventhorizontelescope.org/

Offline Rodal

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So what does / can this mean for spaceflight?
Quote
Not for the first time, the world of physics is abuzz with rumours that gravitational waves have been detected by scientists in the US.

Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at Arizona State university, tweeted that he had received independent confirmation of a rumour that has been in circulation for months, adding: “Gravitational waves may have been discovered!!”

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/12/gravitation-waves-signal-rumoured-science?CMP=twt_gu

It means nothing practical concerning space propulsion during our lifetimes, but here you have:

a patent application  http://www.google.com/patents/US20070001541

a recent paper (2012) http://www.gravwave.com/docs/DirectionsForGWPropGraWaV.pdf

authors that think that "Applications of the present analysis will lead to a unique propulsion system capable of enabling the fast exploration of the solar system, the local star system, and possibly the whole galaxy."

 ;)    ::)
« Last Edit: 01/12/2016 02:17 PM by Rodal »

Offline Star One

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ESA may have a much harder time justifying LISA

I was kind of wondering that when I posted this news in the LISA thread earlier on today?

Offline 1

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ESA may have a much harder time justifying LISA

If the rumors are true (and that's still very much an IF, we shouldn't get to excited yet) I'd hope for the opposite. If we know that there's something out there to observe, it might be a good time to push for the restoration of the original scope of the program. Be really nice if NASA got back on board, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Offline ppnl

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ESA may have a much harder time justifying LISA

I would think it would be the justification of LISA. First of all a confirmed detection of grav-waves means that LISA should also succeed. Second they are looking at very different wave lengths and amplitudes of grav-waves so they will see very different things.

The point is not to just detect grav-waves. The point is to see stuff by them.

Offline MP99



ESA may have a much harder time justifying LISA

If the rumors are true (and that's still very much an IF, we shouldn't get to excited yet) I'd hope for the opposite. If we know that there's something out there to observe, it might be a good time to push for the restoration of the original scope of the program. Be really nice if NASA got back on board, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

By analogy, astronomers didn't stop with the first detection of radio waves. "Yup, there are radio waves out there - we can stop now."

Cheers, Martin

Offline Star One

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ESA may have a much harder time justifying LISA

If the rumors are true (and that's still very much an IF, we shouldn't get to excited yet) I'd hope for the opposite. If we know that there's something out there to observe, it might be a good time to push for the restoration of the original scope of the program. Be really nice if NASA got back on board, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

By analogy, astronomers didn't stop with the first detection of radio waves. "Yup, there are radio waves out there - we can stop now."

Cheers, Martin

I suppose the question becomes now you can detect them can you do anything with this?

Online ugordan

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I suppose the question becomes now you can detect them can you do anything with this?

Probe physics (general relativity predictions vs. reality) at levels we were never been able to do so far, using neutron star and/or black hole collisions. It's not an understatement to say that each time we opened a new window into the cosmos, we learned something new. "Seeing" with gravitational waves likely won't be any different.

Offline RonM

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #10 on: 01/13/2016 09:03 PM »
The original topic, as specified in the title of the thread, is not new physics, so it belongs in a different section.

Well the detection of grav-waves is new and it is physics...

But it's the same old physics.

The term "new physics" means physics different from what is commonly accepted by professional physicists.  Gravitational waves are not that.

New experimental results come in all the time in physics.  That doesn't make them "new physics".

What's the point of having a section with "New Physics" in the title if we're not going to follow it?

With that kind of horribly narrow definition you place yourself even further left field than cold fusion & EM drives.

At CERN they use the same definition as ChrisWilson68.

Quote
Any difference between the measured observable and prediction could indicate new physics.

http://home.cern/about/updates/2013/08/tracking-new-physics-horse-or-zebra

That's how physicists define new physics. New observations are advances in science, but it is only a hint toward new physics if the confirmed results do not match theory. If the new observations match theory, then it is a confirmation of the theory, not new physics.

When the Michelson-Morely experiment indicated that the aether did not exist, that was an indication of new physics. Quantum Theory, Special and General Relativity were the new theories that tried to explain the new physics of their day. They have been very successful, but the search for more continues.

When gravity waves are detected by LIGO or other experiments, then we will see if they match the prediction from GR. If not, then there might be some new physics behind the results.

Offline 1

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #11 on: 01/13/2016 10:03 PM »
That's how physicists define new physics. New observations are advances in science, but it is only a hint toward new physics if the confirmed results do not match theory. If the new observations match theory, then it is a confirmation of the theory, not new physics.

When the Michelson-Morely experiment indicated that the aether did not exist, that was an indication of new physics. Quantum Theory, Special and General Relativity were the new theories that tried to explain the new physics of their day. They have been very successful, but the search for more continues.

Respectfully, as a physicist, I feel some clarification is needed here. Subsequent measurements are often advances in existing physics, but brand spankin new measurements are often considered new physics simply because they act as a forcing function on any and all other competing theories. Even GR and QM, as successful as they've proven to be, are understood to be at best incomplete; and are in need of a more generalized, unified theory. At worst, we must still accept the (very remote) possibility that they're both completely wrong. Comfirmation of gravity waves would now require the formulation of any future unified theory to support them. Else, this would not be a strict requirement. In my opinion, the first direct detection of gravity waves, much like the first direct detection of the Higgs boson, would be enough to say we've moved our knowledge into new territory.

To your example, if an aether had been detected, the Michelson-Morely experiment would still have indicated new physics as well. It would have required a new, non-local generalization of Maxwell's equations rather than a new understanding of space and time, but everyone knew something was wrong with those equations; and any result, even an 'expected' one, would lead them in a new direction.

Offline sanman

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #12 on: 01/15/2016 01:58 AM »
Perhaps the discovery of Gravity Waves will further stimulate research and development towards better means of detection. I'd read that atom lasers and atom interferometry could also conceivably be used towards detection and characterization of Gravity Waves:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-space-based-atom-interferometers-could-find-gravitational-waves-video/

http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.110.171102

Offline RonM

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #13 on: 01/15/2016 02:06 AM »
That's how physicists define new physics. New observations are advances in science, but it is only a hint toward new physics if the confirmed results do not match theory. If the new observations match theory, then it is a confirmation of the theory, not new physics.

When the Michelson-Morely experiment indicated that the aether did not exist, that was an indication of new physics. Quantum Theory, Special and General Relativity were the new theories that tried to explain the new physics of their day. They have been very successful, but the search for more continues.

Respectfully, as a physicist, I feel some clarification is needed here. Subsequent measurements are often advances in existing physics, but brand spankin new measurements are often considered new physics simply because they act as a forcing function on any and all other competing theories. Even GR and QM, as successful as they've proven to be, are understood to be at best incomplete; and are in need of a more generalized, unified theory. At worst, we must still accept the (very remote) possibility that they're both completely wrong. Comfirmation of gravity waves would now require the formulation of any future unified theory to support them. Else, this would not be a strict requirement. In my opinion, the first direct detection of gravity waves, much like the first direct detection of the Higgs boson, would be enough to say we've moved our knowledge into new territory.

To your example, if an aether had been detected, the Michelson-Morely experiment would still have indicated new physics as well. It would have required a new, non-local generalization of Maxwell's equations rather than a new understanding of space and time, but everyone knew something was wrong with those equations; and any result, even an 'expected' one, would lead them in a new direction.

Then it looks like there isn't an agreement as to what "new physics" means. Kind of makes it a useless phrase.

Offline sanman

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #14 on: 01/15/2016 02:20 AM »
So what does / can this mean for spaceflight?
Quote
Not for the first time, the world of physics is abuzz with rumours that gravitational waves have been detected by scientists in the US.

Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at Arizona State university, tweeted that he had received independent confirmation of a rumour that has been in circulation for months, adding: “Gravitational waves may have been discovered!!”

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/12/gravitation-waves-signal-rumoured-science?CMP=twt_gu

It means nothing practical concerning space propulsion during our lifetimes, but here you have:

a patent application  http://www.google.com/patents/US20070001541

a recent paper (2012) http://www.gravwave.com/docs/DirectionsForGWPropGraWaV.pdf

authors that think that "Applications of the present analysis will lead to a unique propulsion system capable of enabling the fast exploration of the solar system, the local star system, and possibly the whole galaxy."

 ;)    ::)

So presumably the OP was asking if the discovery of the existence of Gravity Waves could somehow lead us toward generating Gravity Waves ourselves, or otherwise manipulating gravity.

Isn't the Mach Effect Thruster technically supposed to be based on manipulation of inertia and in some sense, gravity?

If atomic interferometry could be used to detect and measure Gravity Waves, then couldn't it also be used to measure effects from a Mach Effect Thruster? I wonder if Paul March / Star-Drive might be able to comment on that.



Offline sanman

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #15 on: 01/17/2016 01:28 AM »
Btw, here is a presentation from NASA's Jason Hogan on the use of atom interferometry in detecting Gravity Waves:


Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #16 on: 01/17/2016 10:00 PM »
completely unrelated but totally fascinating gravity stuff:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160108083918.htm
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline NovaSilisko

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #17 on: 01/17/2016 10:07 PM »
"If followed, this proposal could transform physics and shake up Einstein's theory of general relativity."

Well, from this line my skepticism level just smashed through the roof and kept on going. Actually, this is the new physics forum, so that's as mundane a claim as "nice weather we're having".

Offline Mulletron

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #18 on: 01/18/2016 01:51 AM »
I wonder how far this has progressed.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Star One

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Re: Rumor Claims Gravitational Waves Have Been Detected At LIGO
« Reply #19 on: 01/18/2016 06:26 AM »

completely unrelated but totally fascinating gravity stuff:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160108083918.htm

Colour me sceptical when we still haven't discovered what fundamentally makes up gravity.

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