Author Topic: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?  (Read 55566 times)

Offline AegeanBlue

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 699
  • Raleigh
  • Liked: 263
  • Likes Given: 49
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #120 on: 03/23/2016 12:02 pm »
The first DSH can be tested in LEO. This can then become the Earth gateway spacestation allowing interchanging between capsules and ferries.

The second DSH can be flown near to the Moon, possibilities include EML-1 or EML-2 or DRO. This allows interchanging between ferries and lunar landers or Mars transfer vehicles. The landers and transfer vehicles could also be refuelled at an attached propellant depot.

My understanding is that the DSH will be a module with ISS heritage, irrespective if it is Destiny heritage or BEAM heritage, so it will be sent directly to DRO without the need for LEO testing

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8906
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 223
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #121 on: 03/23/2016 07:02 pm »
The first DSH can be tested in LEO. This can then become the Earth gateway spacestation allowing interchanging between capsules and ferries.

The second DSH can be flown near to the Moon, possibilities include EML-1 or EML-2 or DRO. This allows interchanging between ferries and lunar landers or Mars transfer vehicles. The landers and transfer vehicles could also be refuelled at an attached propellant depot.

My understanding is that the DSH will be a module with ISS heritage, irrespective if it is Destiny heritage or BEAM heritage, so it will be sent directly to DRO without the need for LEO testing

We need spacestations at both LEO and in lunar orbit. The ISS is a microgravity research facility so using it as an interchange will upset lots of experiments.

There are several proposals for the DSH including one from Bigelow. We will find out which one gets chosen.

Getting heavy items to lunar orbit is not easy, particularly if they have to wait for an SLS.

Offline redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Illinois USA
  • Liked: 683
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #122 on: 03/23/2016 08:45 pm »
My understanding is that the DSH will be a module with ISS heritage, irrespective if it is Destiny heritage or BEAM heritage, so it will be sent directly to DRO without the need for LEO testing

Only if Boeing is ultimately selected as the builder, since Boeing built the majority of the ISS modules.  Lockheed, OrbitalATK, and Bigelow are all competing in addition to Boeing to provide habitats for NASA.  The DSH could look notably different from ISS if Bigelow or OrbitakATK in particular are selected.  Nothing is certain just yet.

We need spacestations at both LEO and in lunar orbit. The ISS is a microgravity research facility so using it as an interchange will upset lots of experiments.

There are several proposals for the DSH including one from Bigelow. We will find out which one gets chosen.

Getting heavy items to lunar orbit is not easy, particularly if they have to wait for an SLS.

Well frankly, considering NASA is busy with both Orion and SLS everything that isn't a mere probe or satellite is inherently going to wait anyway.  Even if the next President immediately cancels SLS/Orion it will only derail HSF again just with Constellation; not supporting SLS just saying the paperwork either way will make things slow.  The 2020s will be the only time to expect any real action.

I am curious what orbit DSH will be sent to ultimately.  Unless there's emphasis on assembling everything near the Moon outright, I'm going to guess it will initially start life in LEO for assembly and later getting pushed out to Cislunar space.  I personally favor the Lagrange points to encourage non-Lunar efforts, but it seems like everything is being considered so long as it ensures long-term stability; either distant or frozen orbits.  LLO is unstable not to mention hindered by being deeper in the Lunar gravity well.

Too many unknowns, although it makes for good speculative conversation while we wait.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5362
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 2239
  • Likes Given: 3883
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #123 on: 03/24/2016 04:59 am »
NASA's future manned space budget is being soaked up by SLS/Orion for better or worse (I know, I know). This is why I'd like Commercial Space to field competitive options for DHS. But I'm not holding my breath, principally because they haven't been asked yet. There was once some talk about a huge SLS derived 'Skylab II' based on EUS tankage. Although intriguing, there would be no budget for that. This leaves Bigelow inflatables and Orbital ATK Cygnus derivatives as front runners, should the concept go further. A 'triple-barrel' Cygnus with a multi-docking adapter at least at one end wouldn't be too bad. As a slight wild card based on the same concept, though smaller - I'd propose a Space X Falcon upper stage derived 'mini-Skylab' Hab. Smaller and Cheaper than SLS/EUS derived, yes. But bigger than Cygnus. I wouldn't recommend launching it 'wet' like the original Apollo Applications workshop design, but as a basic prefab dry unit, sent out by Falcon Heavy to Cislunar space. More modules and equipment could be docked to it later.
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8906
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 223
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #124 on: 03/24/2016 05:14 am »
Once constructed in LEO a space tug based on the propulsion module of the ARRM spacecraft could be used to deploy the spacestation to lunar orbit.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #125 on: 03/24/2016 06:05 am »
Once constructed in LEO a space tug based on the propulsion module of the ARRM spacecraft could be used to deploy the spacestation to lunar orbit.
I think the plan is to deliver it direct to DRO and add any additional modules there.

The 1B can deliver about 10t plus Orion to DRO. Keeping each module to 10t would mean no additional cost for a dedicated SLS delivery mission. Plus crew would be available for assembly and commissioning.

At 10t commercial LVs ( FH, Vulcan) could also be used.

Offline redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Illinois USA
  • Liked: 683
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #126 on: 03/24/2016 10:11 am »
Once constructed in LEO a space tug based on the propulsion module of the ARRM spacecraft could be used to deploy the spacestation to lunar orbit.
I think the plan is to deliver it direct to DRO and add any additional modules there.

The 1B can deliver about 10t plus Orion to DRO. Keeping each module to 10t would mean no additional cost for a dedicated SLS delivery mission. Plus crew would be available for assembly and commissioning.

At 10t commercial LVs ( FH, Vulcan) could also be used.

Sounds like there are options at least.  So long as they are cheaper, it would be sensible to complement an SLS with 1 or 2 commercial launchers, each delivering whichever required element.  I can only assume the SLS with the EUS would focus on delivering a propulsion/node/utility-themed module while FH/Vulcan might deliver a large commercial habitat/laboratory module.

I still think assembling them in LEO would be wise to utilize better ground support, but then again rendezvous in LLO with the Apollo missions was done so it's not a huge difference.  Even if delivery to DRO is done with straightforward chemical boosters, ARRM's SEP could find a use in station keeping and shifting orbits between crew visits.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #127 on: 03/24/2016 02:41 pm »
Another advantage of using Orion flight is that after TLI the Orion docks with module delivers it to DSH. If delivered by commercial LV or dedicated SLS launch the module would need its own service module.

One of recent SLS mission papers shows this option.


Offline muomega0

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 862
  • Liked: 70
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #128 on: 03/25/2016 12:51 pm »
Squyres At all future milestones on the road to Mars, direct the Agency to focus narrowly on activities that clearly serve the goal of landing humans on Mars, operating there, and returning them safely to Earth.
How is landing and handful of government employees on Mars for a short period, a useful "goal"?
Excellent point, but we are saying the same thing:  there is one phrase that is perhaps too subtle, that is apparently overlooked:
"to serve the goal of"  ==>no authorization for missions, just like today.  No one has shown the benefits of SLS/Orion/lunar that fits the budget.

L1 restricts the BEO architecture to heavies.  HLVs will have difficulty attracting commercial customers, increasing the cost that the government must pay per launch.

"The establishment of long-range studies of the potential benefits to be gained from, the opportunities for, and the problems involved in the utilization of aeronautical and space activities for peaceful and scientific purposes

The Space Challenges are the Objectives because the technology pots have been raided for decades.
1) Economic Access to Space ...SLS..Nope....Falcon..better...resuse Great.
2) Eliminate or mitigate the space environment effects on crew health..  in work for decades
3) Create a self sustaining human habitat that enables the colonization of space and other planetary surfaces 
4) Affordable abundant power...
5) Note that Colonization is one of the Challenges...so some should be happy..
None of the Challenges state to land humans on a object by 20XX.

So this is too high level, what should be the more detailed roadmap forward?
Quote from: Paul451
Lower the cost of getting to LEO.
Lower the cost of supporting humans in space.
Lower the cost of going beyond LEO.
Lower the cost of supporting humans BEO.
Everything else -- Moon, Mars, asteroids, SLS, whatever -- is just treading water, burning money and decades, hoping these four things will somehow drop out of going to moon/Mars/asteroids or building SLS or whatever.
This means that for the same budget, folks need to work on something else.  If the US has multiple parallel programs on engines and capsules..why not multiple technology programs..Suggestions on turning the ship?  Plan for depots?

A goal of seven destinations is just as dumb as a goal of one. (Or the goal of a vehicle/module type, such as a DSH.)
...Apollo..Shuttle...ISS....X-33....HLV....Orion....

In every case, the reason for the goal was always the very first thing abandoned in order to protect the program.
"To all destinations" demonstrates the technology, but what is missing is "NASA plans on sending the crew to {destination} n times at a cost of $$ over a M year time frame to demonstrate the economics and reliability of the technology maturation programs."   A HLV and capsule with no missions is not balance.  The great news is that with a reset quite a few space grand challenges can be set aside in the next decade or so...agree?

The purpose of the DSH would be to prepare for multi-year deep space missions and to demonstrate the technology to economically explore the Universe, not to land on the Moon unless the and affordable plan based on Engineering Economics is developed,"  avoiding expensive gravity wells.

L2 is not a destination but rather a staging point to demonstrate the capabilities and infrastructure with numerous robotic and scientific missions in partnership with HSF.

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8906
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 223
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #129 on: 03/25/2016 04:41 pm »
{snip}
L1 restricts the BEO architecture to heavies.  HLVs will have difficulty attracting commercial customers, increasing the cost that the government must pay per launch.


We will be lucky to get an SLS every 2 years. That would get the DSH into position but crew and cargo resupply would have to use small LV. Consequently they would have to stage at a LEO spacestation.

A second SLS could be used to launch a full spacestation to LEO. Habitation, repair yard and refuelling depot (dry).

Offline MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5362
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 2239
  • Likes Given: 3883
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Illinois USA
  • Liked: 683
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #131 on: 03/25/2016 11:46 pm »
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/12/exploration-gateway-platform-hosting-reusable-lunar-lander-proposed/

Good to have an occassional refresher.  8)

Assuming the lander is stowed at DSH in a Lagrange point or high orbit do we have any calculations as to how much fuel may be needed?
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8906
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 223
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #132 on: 03/26/2016 03:03 am »
{snip}
Assuming the lander is stowed at DSH in a Lagrange point or high orbit do we have any calculations as to how much fuel may be needed?

The Centaur upper stage can take 20,830 kg (45,920 lb) of propellant LOX/H2 Isp 450.5 s.
The dual engine version masses 198.4 kN (44,600 lbf). Mass of cabin 4000-5000 kg.
Mass of the 4 off vertical engines and their propellant unknown to me.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #133 on: 03/26/2016 08:48 am »
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/12/exploration-gateway-platform-hosting-reusable-lunar-lander-proposed/

Good to have an occassional refresher.  8)

Assuming the lander is stowed at DSH in a Lagrange point or high orbit do we have any calculations as to how much fuel may be needed?
The article says 7t dry with 8t fuel. The EUS would deliver methane with extra internal tank, transfer methane and LOX from its tanks to lander. EUS would provide the lunar injection burn and most of lunar descent DV. Lander does final stage of landing and return to EML1.

How much is lander and how much to modify EUS?.
The idea could be tested with small robotic lander eg Morpheus. If it works build a larger expensive human lander.

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15287
  • Liked: 7823
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #134 on: 03/27/2016 04:11 pm »
This and other related subjects are discussed in a new issue. You can download the articles for free:

http://online.liebertpub.com/toc/space/4/1

« Last Edit: 03/27/2016 04:13 pm by Blackstar »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Deep Space Habitat - Gateway to a Lunar Program?
« Reply #135 on: 03/27/2016 06:14 pm »
This and other related subjects are discussed in a new issue. You can download the articles for free:

http://online.liebertpub.com/toc/space/4/1
Thanks Black star. Great find.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1