Author Topic: NavIC/IRNSS discussion  (Read 16694 times)

Offline vyoma

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« Last Edit: 08/26/2016 05:25 AM by vyoma »

Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #1 on: 05/26/2015 03:10 AM »
http://www.isro.gov.in/applications/step-towards-initial-satellite-based-navigation-services-india-gagan-irnss

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A step towards initial Satellite based Navigation Services in India: GAGAN & IRNSS

The Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) and Airports Authority of India (AAI) have implemented the GPS Aided Geo Augmented Navigation-GAGAN project as a Satellite Based Augmentation System (SBAS) for the Indian Airspace. The objective of GAGAN to establish, deploy and certify satellite based augmentation system for safety-of-life civil aviation applications in India has been successfully completed. The system is inter-operable with other international SBAS systems like US-WAAS, European EGNOS, and Japanese MSAS etc. GAGAN GEO footprint extends from Africa to Australia and has expansion capability for seamless navigation services across the region. GAGAN provides the additional accuracy, availability, and integrity necessary for all phases of flight, from enroute through approach for all qualified airports within the GAGAN service volume. GAGAN Payload is already operational through GSAT-8 and GSAT-10 satellites. The third GAGAN payload will be carried onboard GSAT-15 satellite which is scheduled for launch this year.

Initially, Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) certified GAGAN for enroute operations (RNP 0.1) on December 30, 2013 and subsequently on April 21, 2015 for precision approach services (APV 1). APV1 Certified GAGAN signals are being broadcast with effect from May 19, 2015. GAGAN is the first SBAS system in the world to serve the equatorial region. GAGAN ionospheric algorithm known as ISRO GIVE Model-Multi-Layer Data Fusion (IGM-MLDF) was developed by ISRO and is operational in the implemented GAGAN System. India has become the third country in the world to have such precision approach capabilities.

GAGAN though primarily meant for aviation, will provide benefits beyond aviation to many other user segments such as intelligent transportation, maritime, highways, railways, surveying, geodesy, security agencies, telecom industry, personal users of position location applications etc.

IRNSS, the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System, is an ISRO initiative to design and develop an independent satellite-based navigation system to provide positioning, navigation and timing services for users over Indian region. The system is designed with a constellation of 7 spacecraft and a vast network of ground systems operating. The first three satellites (IRNSS-1A, 1B &1C) were launched in 2013-14.

IRNSS-1D, the fourth satellite of IRNSS constellation was successfully launched on March 28, 2015 on board PSLV-C27. The initial tests of the spacecraft have been successfully completed and it has joined the family of IRNSS space segment. With the addition of fourth spacecraft the minimum satellite requirement is met and independent position solution is demonstrated for the first time using an Indian satellite-based navigation system. The unique Geostationary Earth Orbit (GEO) /Geo Synchronous Orbit (GSO) constellation design provides a position accuracy of better than 15 metre for longer duration of 20 hours in a day even with 4 satellites.

ISRO has released the ‘IRNSS Signal-in-Space interface control document for Standard Positioning Service ver 1.0’, the document that comprehensively provides all the information required by user receiver manufacturers. The document is available for download at http://irnss.isro.gov.in.

While GAGAN will redefine navigation over Indian Airspace, IRNSS will provide independent and self reliant satellite based navigation services over Indian region
« Last Edit: 05/26/2015 03:12 AM by vyoma »

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #2 on: 05/26/2015 05:25 AM »
They should really start showcasing navigational service working and any other info on industries adapting it, hardware etc..

Quote
The ISRO would drive navigation in the country with chipsets and other smart products.

A Hyderabad company was making a dongle-like tool that could be plugged to a laptop or a tablet PC.
Source(last line)
« Last Edit: 05/26/2015 05:26 AM by Ohsin »
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Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #3 on: 05/27/2015 03:11 AM »
Indigenous Rubidium atomic will be used for next-gen IRNSS satellites:

Quote
The ISRO’s Space Applications Centre in Ahmedabad is developing prototypes of atomic clocks, along with the CSIR’s National Physical Laboratory in New Delhi, Dr. Kiran Kumar said on the sidelines of an event organised by the Metrology Society here.

“We still have to make qualified and flight-worthy versions. Our next generation navigation satellites will carry our own clocks” when they start replacing the IRNSS-1 series after their life of 10 years, he said.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/india-developing-atomic-clocks-for-use-on-satellites/article7229191.ece

Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #4 on: 07/20/2015 09:16 AM »
http://www.insidegnss.com/node/4545

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India’s regional navigation constellation, IRNSS, has demonstrated independent three-dimensional position determination for the first time using a combination of geostationary and geosynchronous satellites now in orbit. Earlier this year, IRNSS reference receivers and user receivers demonstrated a positioning accuracy of 10–15 meters, as per the design objectives for four satellites. Since then, position fixes using stand-alone IRNSS receivers have been possible with an accuracy of better than 15 meters for a minimum of 18 hours in a day over India as the result of the continuous visibility of GEO/GSO satellites to the system’s ground segment. The navigation software team from the Indian Space Research Organization describes this achievement.

Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #5 on: 09/26/2015 08:28 AM »
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/user-meet-on-navigation-satellite-system-on-oct-8/article7681675.ece

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BENGALURU, SEPTEMBER 25: 
The Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) – User Meet 2015 will be held here on October 8.

It will bring together GNSS-based industries – receiver manufacturers, PNT service providers, application developers, content providers and the user community along with the academia on a common platform.

The meet is being organised jointly by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and Airports Authority of India (AAI) at ISRO Satellite Centre here.

Offline beidou

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #6 on: 09/30/2015 08:15 PM »
Does anyone have any ideas when IRNSS-1G will be launched?

Online russianhalo117

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #7 on: 10/01/2015 06:19 AM »
Does anyone have any ideas when IRNSS-1G will be launched?
its currently a replenshment payload for LON.

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #8 on: 10/08/2015 03:49 PM »
Quote
GSAT-15 satellite with GAGAN payload is slated for launch by November 10
Quote
We expect by March 2016 all the seven constellation of IRNSS to be in orbit
Quote
"....already we are having within the country provisions of providing it, we are also looking at how we can extend it to SAARC countries and in the near future gradually extend it over the entire globe,"

 Asked how global, he said "set of regional things you add it becomes global, it is a thought process on which we are now working with few of the countries...right now we are doing 1500 km beyond the border, so we can keep adding regions to those things and get global."

Source:ET


Quote
Satellite-based systems: Application aplenty, but commercialization key
Quote
"We'll need our own receivers that can be integrated, we will need simulators," he said. More than 200 receivers
 
 Isro Chairman AS Kiran Kumar said that in the coming months, more than 200 receivers designed and developed by Isro will become operational, he said, adding that even those receivers from the private industry can be made use of.
 
 "In fact, the Semiconductor Complex Limited (run by the Ministry of Information and Technology) in Chandigarh has designed and developed more than 28 products and I must say that there is a lot of work happening in the field," Kiran Kumar said, speaking of the various chips and receivers that need to be used for implementing a navigation system.
Source: ToI

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Offline beidou

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #9 on: 10/08/2015 09:36 PM »

Quote
We expect by March 2016 all the seven constellation of IRNSS to be in orbit


Wow, how could this be true? Current there is even no plan of launching the 7th IrNss satellite. I think this is just a boast...
« Last Edit: 10/09/2015 08:34 PM by beidou »

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #10 on: 10/09/2015 04:07 AM »
Wow, how could this be true? Current there is even no plan of launching the 7th IrNss satellite. I think this is just a boast...

Any basis of that assertion? And it is a HUGE one by the way. Why would there be no plan to launch 7th satellite? And a guy in such an position of responsibility would just randomly choose to 'boast' when  it can fall flat in just few months and don't forget the presence of elephant in the room which will be even more a talking point in April 2016. So do tell if there is any source or valid reason for cancellation of 1G as you said.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2015 07:54 AM by Ohsin »
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Offline vineethgk

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #11 on: 10/09/2015 04:16 PM »
A snapshot from an ISRO presentation (I think) that was posted before, had depicted IRNSS as an 11 satellite constellation with 4 additional sats in GSO. Any news if they have any immediate plans to augment IRNSS with these 4 birds?

Also, IRNSS being GEO/GSO orbits, would it theoretically enable faster satellite locks for a user in the Indian subcontinent with an IRNSS enabled device, than it would be with GPS?

Offline beidou

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #12 on: 10/09/2015 08:37 PM »
Wow, how could this be true? Current there is even no plan of launching the 7th IrNss satellite. I think this is just a boast...

Any basis of that assertion? And it is a HUGE one by the way. Why would there be no plan to launch 7th satellite? And a guy in such an position of responsibility would just randomly choose to 'boast' when  it can fall flat in just few months and don't forget the presence of elephant in the room which will be even more a talking point in April 2016. So do tell if there is any source or valid reason for cancellation of 1G as you said.

I cannot prove there is NO launch plan, but you should prove to us that there IS a plan for launching 1G.


Offline vineethgk

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #13 on: 10/09/2015 10:00 PM »
I cannot prove there is NO launch plan, but you should prove to us that there IS a plan for launching 1G.

Well, AFAIK ISRO has been saying all along that this will be a 'seven' satellite constellation once operational.

Quote
The space segment consists of the IRNSS constellation of seven satellites. Three satellites will be located in suitable orbital slots in the geostationary orbit and the remaining four will be located in geosynchronous orbits with the required inclination and equatorial crossings in two different planes. All the satellites of the constellation are being configured identically. The satellites are configured with I-1K Bus to be compatible for launch on-board PSLV.

Source

Now the Chairman of ISRO himself says that they plan to have all 'seven' in orbit by March 2016. I do not get the confusion. Is your point just that there hasn't been much information in the public domain 'specifically' for IRNSS-1G? ;)

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #14 on: 10/10/2015 05:17 AM »
I cannot prove there is NO launch plan, but you should prove to us that there IS a plan for launching 1G.

This was the plan 3 months ago.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35783.msg1392830#msg1392830

So far there have been just minor schedule changes. And as Vineet said,it is clear from regular official quotes in media they've stuck to Annual Report.

On other note two of IRNSS sats it seems are sharing a spot doing their figure eights.
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Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #15 on: 10/12/2015 03:22 AM »
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/505901/chinas-overtures-space-worry-india.html

Quote
While four satellites of IRNSS is already in the orbit, the fifth one is scheduled to be launched in December and the next two by March, 2016.

Offline chota

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #16 on: 10/12/2015 10:40 PM »

Offline chota

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #17 on: 10/12/2015 10:58 PM »
Quote
Six more satellites are planned to be launched during 2015-16. These are two communication satellites GSAT-6 and GSAT-15; three navigation satellites IRNSS-1E, IRNSS-1F & IRNSS-1G

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/science/news/indias-second-lunar-probe-chandrayaan-2-to-be-launched-in-2017-690028

Offline kanaka

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #18 on: 11/27/2015 09:46 AM »
Any updates on IRNSS signals and receivers and implementation of GAGAN in Indian Airports?

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #19 on: 11/27/2015 02:08 PM »
Any updates on IRNSS signals and receivers and implementation of GAGAN in Indian Airports?

Quote
    "We'll need our own receivers that can be integrated, we will need simulators," he said. More than 200 receivers

    Isro Chairman AS Kiran Kumar said that in the coming months, more than 200 receivers designed and developed by Isro will become operational, he said, adding that even those receivers from the private industry can be made use of.

    "In fact, the Semiconductor Complex Limited (run by the Ministry of Information and Technology) in Chandigarh has designed and developed more than 28 products and I must say that there is a lot of work happening in the field," Kiran Kumar said, speaking of the various chips and receivers that need to be used for implementing a navigation system.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/Satellite-based-systems-Application-aplenty-but-commercialisation-key/articleshow/49271260.cms


« Last Edit: 11/27/2015 02:09 PM by Ohsin »
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Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #20 on: 01/08/2016 04:19 AM »
« Last Edit: 01/08/2016 06:44 AM by Ohsin »
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Online seshagirib

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #21 on: 01/08/2016 04:29 AM »
Four more being built to serve as backup.

http://Http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/isro-works-on-4-back-up-satellites-for-irnss/

fixed link : http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/isro-works-on-4-back-up-satellites-for-irnss/

I wonder, what is the shelf life of these spare Sats. I suppose they must be stored in special environmental chambers?
Not clear from the article if these will be ground based or in orbit spares.

Offline Stan Black

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #22 on: 01/08/2016 07:36 AM »
Four more being built to serve as backup.

http://Http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/isro-works-on-4-back-up-satellites-for-irnss/

fixed link : http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/isro-works-on-4-back-up-satellites-for-irnss/

I wonder, what is the shelf life of these spare Sats. I suppose they must be stored in special environmental chambers?
Not clear from the article if these will be ground based or in orbit spares.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36710.0

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #23 on: 01/08/2016 10:21 AM »
Source of above screencap @13m30s



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Offline worldtimedate

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #24 on: 01/11/2016 06:54 AM »
All IRNSS satellites to be in orbit by March: ISRO official

Quote

All the seven satellites of Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) are expected to be in the orbit by March 2016, a top Indian Space Research Organisation official today.

IRNSS-1E is slated for launch on January 20 from the space port of Sriharikota in Andhra Pradesh.

"...from the regional navigation point of view, earlier we had launched four satellites. Another satellite IRNSS-1E is on the launch pad. It is slated for launch on January 20," ISRO Satellite Centre (ISAC) Director M Annadurai said.

He said (IRNSS) 1F and 1G satellites were also in the very advanced stages of integration at the Bangalore satellite centre.

"..by March 31st we want to have all the seven satellites constellation in place," he said.



worldtimedate [ http://www.world-timedate.com/ ]

Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #25 on: 01/21/2016 03:49 AM »
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/tamil_nadu/Coming-July-Mobile-Handsets-May-Sport-Indigenous-GPS/2016/01/21/article3237211.ece

Quote
Moving quickly to fulfil the plan to replace the US-run Global Positioning System (GPS) with an indigenous navigation system provided by IRNSS, the ISRO held a meeting with mobile phone makers and developers at Bengaluru recently. If all goes as per plan, the switch might happen by July 2016.

“During this meet, the ISRO had recommended fitting a small hardware in hand-held devices, mobile phones and including a code in the existing mobile software by which the devices can receive signals (L-Band and S-Band) from the satellite,” ISRO sources told Express.

Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #26 on: 01/28/2016 12:39 PM »
http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/kineco-kaman-s-antenna-put-into-orbit-via-isro-satellite-116012800647_1.html

Quote
Kineco Kaman Composites India (KKCI) has become the first private company in India to manufacture a Dual Helix Antenna Array (DHAA) assembly, which was launched into the space aboard ISRO's fifth Indian Regional Navigation Satellite (IRNSS-1E) this month.

"The DHAA assembly is a very complex and high precision structure made using a combination of Carbon and Aramid Composites. The manufacturing of this DHAA requires hi-tech engineering and manufacturing competence, benchmarked with the best in the world," said Shekhar Sardessai, Chairman and MD, Kineco Kaman Composites-India Private Limited.

Offline input~2

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #27 on: 02/05/2016 07:18 PM »
Quote
A budget of `1420 Crores has been approved by the Government for the realisation of IRNSS programme including satellites and associated ground segment.
http://dos.gov.in/sites/default/files/LS%20243.pdf

Offline kanaka

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #28 on: 02/06/2016 10:13 AM »
Quote
A budget of `1420 Crores has been approved by the Government for the realisation of IRNSS programme including satellites and associated ground segment.
http://dos.gov.in/sites/default/files/LS%20243.pdf

Aditya is more of fantasy than addressing needs. The funds can be diverted to IRNSS instead and Aditya can be postponed. ROI on Aditya mission could be very minimal.

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #29 on: 02/12/2016 04:57 PM »


Mentioning IRNSS extension chairman was quite specific when he said gulf and Korean side. Keep in mind recent MoU with UAE mentions satellite navigation.
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Offline beidou

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #30 on: 02/13/2016 07:00 PM »
recent MoU with UAE mentions satellite navigation.

Do you mean India will collaborate with NK and UAE to expand IRNSS to these regions?

Offline Ohsin

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #31 on: 02/13/2016 10:28 PM »
recent MoU with UAE mentions satellite navigation.

Do you mean India will collaborate with NK and UAE to expand IRNSS to these regions?

I mean South Koreans. Yes just speculating as accuracy drops around those parts.
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Offline worldtimedate

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #32 on: 02/20/2016 07:26 AM »
ISRO Chairman has confirmed that the last two IRNSS satellites would be launched on March 10 and March 31 this year.

Quote
On ISRO’s future plans, the Chairman said the remaining two satellites of IRNSS series would be launched on March 10 and March 31 this year.

Source : More satellites needed to meet rising space-tech demand: ISRO


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Offline vineethgk

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #33 on: 02/20/2016 08:04 AM »
If they manage to do it, I guess this must be the first time they are attempting two launches in the same month? But the March 31 kind of looks slippery to me though..

Offline vyoma

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Re: IRNSS discussion
« Reply #34 on: 08/13/2016 04:55 AM »
« Last Edit: 08/13/2016 05:32 AM by vyoma »

Offline vyoma

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« Last Edit: 08/26/2016 07:54 AM by vyoma »

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #36 on: 09/02/2016 02:46 AM »
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/industry-to-build-isros-two-spare-navigation-satellites/article9062751.ece

Quote
ISRO is finalising plans to get two spare navigation satellites of its IRNSS fleet built by industry in the next two years.

It will handhold industry for the first project and build it by March 2017. The second one will be built entirely by industry, M. Annadurai, Director of ISRO Satellite Centre, said on Thursday. Both will be 1,400-kg spares kept ready on ground.

Quote
‘Technical bid soon’

Dr. Annadurai said ISRO plans to go to the next level and issue the request for proposal — the technical bid — “in weeks” to interested companies from both, public and private sectors.

The bids are planned to be evaluated and a final consortium to be identified by October, so that the spacecraft can be ready by March 2017. The second spacecraft is aimed for a year thereafter, but will be built by industry using ISRO’s designs and under its watch.

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #37 on: 09/02/2016 03:40 AM »
Here's the EoI by ISRO/SAC for industries to build two satellites: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32023.msg1568924#msg1568924

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #38 on: 09/03/2016 11:01 PM »
Quote
Description of the Opportunity
Space Applications Centre (SAC), Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO), Department of Space (DOS), Government of India, declares an “Announcement of Opportunity (AO)” to carry out scientific research under “IRNSS/GAGAN Data Utilization Program”.

Quote
Who can submit a proposal?
Proposals could be submitted by individuals or a group of scientists and academicians belonging to recognized institutions, universities, government and private organizations of India. Only those having at least a minimum remaining service of four years before superannuation are eligible to lead the project as PI/Co-PI. The proposals must be forwarded through the Head of the Institution, with appropriate assurance for providing necessary facilities for carrying out the projects under this AO program.

Data availability
The data from GAGAN is continuously being collected since 2005 and can be provided however, IRNSS data will be made available by July, 2017.

http://www.sac.gov.in/SACSITE/AO_IRNSS_GAGAN_UP_March23_FINAL__2016.pdf
« Last Edit: 09/03/2016 11:01 PM by vyoma »

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #39 on: 09/07/2016 04:01 PM »
A report from few days back..

Isro plans to launch first privately built satellite by March

Quote
India’s space agency, Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro), plans to launch a navigation satellite that it would build jointly with a private firm, by March next year, beginning a process to outsource satellite manufacturing and free its resources to focus on research and deep space missions.
Are they really planning to launch it by next March, or is this just a mis-reporting? I thought they just meant to have them built as ground spares. Also, can they get the satellite built so soon?

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #40 on: 09/07/2016 05:20 PM »
As per report in this post, it'll be a spare satellite kept on ground.

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #41 on: 10/05/2016 05:42 AM »
IAF faces longer wait for own satellite as Isro yet to get nod
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Singh said the decisions were being taken at the Air Force headquarters and by Isro. He, however, confirmed that the IAF will soon be migrating to the indigenised version of GPS, using Isro's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS).

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #42 on: 10/06/2016 02:42 PM »
PEC to collaborate with SAC for ISRO project

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Chandigarh: PEC University of Technology will working with institutions to collect data for the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) programme of ISRO, named as NAVIC (acronym for NAVigation using Indian Constellation)
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The college will receive four receivers soon which will be used in research and teaching methods. Besides this, the college will work on small projects and the performance of these will be examined for a year.
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PEC has signed a memorandum of understanding with SAC, which has additionally roped in various other technical institutes from the country for the IRNSS data collection exercise using SAC-developed IRNSS ground receiver.

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #43 on: 01/18/2017 05:54 PM »
Galileo satellites experiencing multiple clock failures

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The onboard atomic clocks that drive the satellite-navigation signals on Europe's Galileo network have been failing at an alarming rate.
Across the 18 satellites now in orbit, nine clocks have stopped operating.
Three are traditional rubidium devices; six are the more precise hydrogen maser instruments that were designed to give Galileo superior performance to the American GPS network.

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Esa is also in contact with the Indian space agency which is using the same clocks in its sat-nav system. So far, the Indians have not experienced the same failures.

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Most of the maser failures (5) have occurred on the satellites that were originally sent into orbit to validate the system, whereas all three rubidium stoppages are on the spacecraft that were subsequently launched to fill out the network.

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It appears the rubidium failures "all seem to have a consistent signature, linked to probable short circuits, and possibly a particular test procedure performed on the ground".

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The maser clock failures are said to be better understood, with two likely causes, the second of which has caused most grief.
The Esa statement said this second scenario was "related to the fact that when some healthy [hydrogen maser] clocks are turned off for long periods, they do not restart due to a change in clock characteristics".
« Last Edit: 01/18/2017 07:38 PM by vyoma »

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #44 on: 01/18/2017 06:01 PM »
IRNSS satellites are using similar Rubidium atomic clocks sourced from same manufacturer/vendor (Spectratime) as that of ESA.

Hope those failures seen on Galileo are one off cases  :-X ISRO should switch to indigenous clocks ASAP.

Rubidium clock failures are seen in operational Galileo satellites. First operational Galileo was launched in 2011, and first operational IRNSS was launched in 2013. So, there's not much difference in terms of aging of clocks.

ESA is suspecting some kind of short circuit in Rubidium clocks, linked to a certain test procedure done on ground.
« Last Edit: 01/18/2017 07:39 PM by vyoma »

Offline chota

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #45 on: 01/25/2017 11:28 AM »
Galileo satellites experiencing multiple clock failures

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The onboard atomic clocks that drive the satellite-navigation signals on Europe's Galileo network have been failing at an alarming rate.
Across the 18 satellites now in orbit, nine clocks have stopped operating.
Three are traditional rubidium devices; six are the more precise hydrogen maser instruments that were designed to give Galileo superior performance to the American GPS network.

Quote
Esa is also in contact with the Indian space agency which is using the same clocks in its sat-nav system. So far, the Indians have not experienced the same failures.

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Most of the maser failures (5) have occurred on the satellites that were originally sent into orbit to validate the system, whereas all three rubidium stoppages are on the spacecraft that were subsequently launched to fill out the network.

Quote
It appears the rubidium failures "all seem to have a consistent signature, linked to probable short circuits, and possibly a particular test procedure performed on the ground".

Quote
The maser clock failures are said to be better understood, with two likely causes, the second of which has caused most grief.
The Esa statement said this second scenario was "related to the fact that when some healthy [hydrogen maser] clocks are turned off for long periods, they do not restart due to a change in clock characteristics".

There you go !!. One of the IRNSS satellite has developed a problem !!.

It seems India is using Spectratime-built atomic clocks as is the case with China

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indias-swadeshi-gps-develops-a-problem-but-remains-functional-1652638
« Last Edit: 01/25/2017 11:30 AM by chota »

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #46 on: 01/25/2017 02:02 PM »
Galileo satellites experiencing multiple clock failures

Quote
The onboard atomic clocks that drive the satellite-navigation signals on Europe's Galileo network have been failing at an alarming rate.
Across the 18 satellites now in orbit, nine clocks have stopped operating.
Three are traditional rubidium devices; six are the more precise hydrogen maser instruments that were designed to give Galileo superior performance to the American GPS network.

Quote
Esa is also in contact with the Indian space agency which is using the same clocks in its sat-nav system. So far, the Indians have not experienced the same failures.

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Most of the maser failures (5) have occurred on the satellites that were originally sent into orbit to validate the system, whereas all three rubidium stoppages are on the spacecraft that were subsequently launched to fill out the network.

Quote
It appears the rubidium failures "all seem to have a consistent signature, linked to probable short circuits, and possibly a particular test procedure performed on the ground".

Quote
The maser clock failures are said to be better understood, with two likely causes, the second of which has caused most grief.
The Esa statement said this second scenario was "related to the fact that when some healthy [hydrogen maser] clocks are turned off for long periods, they do not restart due to a change in clock characteristics".

There you go !!. One of the IRNSS satellite has developed a problem !!.

It seems India is using Spectratime-built atomic clocks as is the case with China

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indias-swadeshi-gps-develops-a-problem-but-remains-functional-1652638
Oops. This is turning out to be a really costly issue. A disaster of sorts if both ESA and ISRO ultimately end up replacing its entire navigation constellation. For India, this would be quite critical as both  ISRO and the defense agencies were planning to utilize NavIC for their respective strategic requirements. Does this indicate the problem was likely with the clocks themselves, and not due to test procedures or associated instruments?

Online eeergo

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #47 on: 01/25/2017 02:11 PM »

Does this indicate the problem was likely with the clocks themselves, and not due to test procedures or associated instruments?


According to this: https://www.spaceintelreport.com/galileo-clocks


"Javier Benedicto, head of the Galileo Program Department at the 22-nation ESA, said the investigation has tentatively concluded that the issues do not relate to the core technology provided by SpectraTime.

In an interview, Benedicto said that while the root cause of the failure likely is to be found inside the clocks, it is more likely to be of a peripheral piece of circuitry or other unremarkable component that, when operated in a certain way, leads to failure.

“We have 72 clocks in orbit today,” Benedicto said. “Of these, we have had up to six failures. We have not been able to replicate those failures on the ground. These units all passed their qualification and acceptance tests.”
[...]“It is not a development issue with the clocks,” Benedicto said. “It is not a fundamental part of the unit that is failing.They were not bound to fail. But in certain conditions where you have certain parameters going in the wrong direction together, it could cause the unit to fail. You have to be particularly unlucky and have all the failure parameters drifting in a specific direction.""
-DaviD-

Offline sanjaykumar

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #48 on: 01/25/2017 03:03 PM »

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indias-swadeshi-gps-develops-a-problem-but-remains-functional-1652638


Quote

India's Swadeshi GPS Develops A Problem, But Remains Functional

"The on-board atomic clock has developed a problem and we are trying to revive it," said Dr. Kiran Kumar, Chairman of ISRO or the Indian Space Research Organization, to NDTV.

« Last Edit: 01/25/2017 03:06 PM by sanjaykumar »

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #49 on: 01/25/2017 03:17 PM »



“It is not a development issue with the clocks,” Benedicto said. “It is not a fundamental part of the unit that is failing.They were not bound to fail. But in certain conditions where you have certain parameters going in the wrong direction together, it could cause the unit to fail. You have to be particularly unlucky and have all the failure parameters drifting in a specific direction.""

But if the failures in the cases of Galileo and IRNSS indeed turn out to follow a similar pattern (too early to say at the moment as ISRO is yet to publish its share of details), it may not be a case of being 'particularly unlucky' after all.

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #50 on: 01/26/2017 01:23 AM »
Not sure what they mean by "satellite's not visible"!?

Also, as per this  €4M contract between SpectraTime and ISRO, each satellite has (or supposed to have), 4 Rubidium clocks. So, there should be some sort redundancy.

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. In the framework of the IRNSS program, each satellite will have four SpectraTime Rubidium atomic clocks on board to reach a stability of less than 10 billionths of a second per day. « To give a point of comparison, our clocks are 10 million times more precise than a watch made of quartz" », says Pascal Rochat, Chief Executive Officer of SpectraTime.

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #51 on: 01/30/2017 01:58 AM »
Atomic clocks on indigenous navigation satellite develop snag

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In the NavIC, a constellation of seven satellites, one of the three crucial rubidium timekeepers on IRNSS-1A spacecraft failed six months ago. The other two followed subsequently.

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A. S. Kiran Kumar, Chairman of the Indian Space Research Organisation, confirmed the glitch in the clocks but clarified that the satellite was otherwise all right, and the rest of the satellites were performing its core function of providing accurate position, navigation and time. However, without its clocks, the IRNSS-1A “will give a coarse value. It will not be used for computation. Messages from it will still be used.”

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“There are some anomalies in the atomic clock system on board. We are trying to restart it. Right now we are working out a mechanism for operating it,” he told The Hindu.

The problem is only with the clock system of one spacecraft. The signals are all coming, we are getting the messages, everything else is working and being used, except the stability portion which is linked to the clock,” he said. A minimum of four working satellites was sufficient to realise the full use of the navigation system”.

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NavIC has 21 atomic clocks on seven spacecraft. “How would the other clocks fare? Would ISRO reconsider the supplier of its atomic clocks? Such questions are not easy to answer. Generally any [space] hardware is an issue. We have to find ways of going around it,” he said.

Quote
The troubled IRNSS-1A spacecraft was put in space in July 2013 and has an expected life span of 10 years.

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #52 on: 01/30/2017 02:07 AM »
I hope ISRO, ESA and Spectratime figure out the issue, and if possible recalibrate/reconfigure atomic clock hardware on other satellites to avoid further failures.

ISRO has imported 29 Rubidium clocks from SpectraTime, 21 of them are used in IRNSS-1A to 1G. Hopefully, they'll sort out the issue before remaining two backup satellites are built.

Quote
2010:  First RAFS rubidium clocks flying & operating on the COMPASS/Baidu satellites
2011:  Prime Swiss supplier of the PHM maser & RAFS rubidium clocks for Galileo's 14 satellites
2012:  Prime Swiss supplier of 29 space RAFS rubidium clocks for the IRNS (Indian Regional Navigation System)
2015:  Prime Swiss supplier of all PHM maser & RAFS rubidium clocks for the first 22 Galileo satellites

Even Chinese COMPASS and DFH satellites are using Spectratime Rubidium clocks, not sure if they've hit similar snags?!
« Last Edit: 01/30/2017 02:12 AM by vyoma »

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #53 on: 01/30/2017 02:15 AM »
I hope ISRO, ESA and Spectratime figure out the issue, and if possible recalibrate/reconfigure atomic clock hardware on other satellites to avoid further failures.

Even Chinese COMPASS and DFH satellites are using Spectratime Rubidium clocks, not sure if they've hit similar snags?!
Since the snag has hit the first IRNSS satellite at the moment, I really really hope it isn't a matter of time before the rest starts to show the same anomaly in sequence.

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #54 on: 01/30/2017 03:29 AM »
Yes :( Rb clock failures are seen in two of the Galileo's operational constellation satellites (FOC). Considering first FOC was launched in 2014 and first IRNSS was launched in 2013, looks like these clocks are developing anomaly after approximately 3 years of operation (either due to inherent issue in clocks or satellite subsystem)!!

But, ESA's GIOVE-A/B and Galileo IOV (In-Orbit Validation) experimental satellites had same Rb clocks, and they didn't seem to have any failures after years of operation. Hopefully ESA, ISRO would be comparing GIOVE-A/B or IOV hardware with FOC or IRNSS hardware.

Offline chota

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #55 on: 01/30/2017 05:00 AM »
Alarming !! All three clocks have failed – one primary and two backups

Replacement satellite 1H planned

https://thewire.in/103934/atomic-clock-rubidium-irnss/

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #56 on: 01/30/2017 05:43 AM »
Alarming !! All three clocks have failed – one primary and two backups

Replacement satellite 1H planned

https://thewire.in/103934/atomic-clock-rubidium-irnss/

Would be really interesting to know how those clocks are faring in CNSA's satellites. Anyway, IRNSS-1H is going to to be built same hardware, not sure if it really helps in the long run.

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #57 on: 01/30/2017 05:55 AM »
Alarming !! All three clocks have failed – one primary and two backups

Replacement satellite 1H planned

https://thewire.in/103934/atomic-clock-rubidium-irnss/

Would be really interesting to know how those clocks are faring in CNSA's satellites. Anyway, IRNSS-1H is going to to be built same hardware, not sure if it really helps in the long run.
Chinese may not readily acknowledge such a failure even if it had occurred, which is perhaps why there aren't reports of ESA contacting them yet. For that matter, even in India's case, was it perhaps the reports of Galileo's string of failures that encouraged ISRO to go public about this now?

As for IRNSS-1H, they might be banking on it as a stop-gap replacement at best until they figure out what exactly went wrong. NavIC is a crucial piece of equipment for India's strategic needs, and ISRO may not risk any dent in its capability even for a short term.
« Last Edit: 01/30/2017 05:56 AM by vineethgk »

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #58 on: 01/31/2017 02:29 PM »
http://gadgets.ndtv.com/science/news/isro-to-launch-standby-navigation-satellite-to-replace-irnss-1a-1654441

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India will launch one of its back up navigation satellites this year as a replacement to IRNSS-1A satellite, whose three atomic clocks have failed, an official of the Indian space agency said on Monday.

The official denied the existence of similar problems with the rubidium atomic clocks in another navigation satellite.

"The atomic clocks have failed in only one satellite. We will be launching the stand-by satellite this year. All other six satellites are operational and are providing the navigation data," A.S. Kiran Kumar, Chairman, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), told IANS.

He said the atomic clocks were imported and ISRO would take up the issue with the foreign supplier.

Each satellite has three clocks and a total of 27 clocks for the navigation satellite system were supplied by the same vendor. The clocks are important to provide precise data.
« Last Edit: 01/31/2017 02:31 PM by vyoma »

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #59 on: 01/31/2017 05:50 PM »
Quote
Atomic clocks failures onboard Galileo satellites

SSTL_PHMAcross the 18 satellites now in orbit, nine clocks out of 72 have stopped operating. Three are traditional rubidium devices; six are the more precise hydrogen maser instruments that were designed to give Galileo superior performance to the American GPS network.

Mitigating actions

It appears the rubidium failures all seem to have a consistent signature, linked to probable short circuits, and possibly a particular test procedure performed on the ground.

The maser clock failures are said to be better understood, with two likely causes, the second of which has caused most grief. The ESA statement said this second scenario was related to the fact that when some healthy [hydrogen maser] clocks are turned off for long periods, they do not restart due to a change in clock characteristics.


Source : Atomic clocks failures onboard Galileo satellites | GALILEO:


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Galileo clock anomalies under investigation

As first reported last November, anomalies have been noted in the atomic clocks serving Europe’s Galileo satellites.

Anomalies have occurred on five out of 18 Galileo satellites in orbit, although all satellites continue to operate well and the provision of Galileo Initial Services has not been affected.

Source : Galileo clock anomalies under investigation | GALILEO:

worldtimedate [ http://www.world-timedate.com/ ]

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #60 on: 02/03/2017 01:50 AM »
The earlier plan apparently was to have the IRNSS-1H (and 1I) built as ground spares by the private Alpha consortium under guidance from ISRO. Is it likely there would be change in those plans now in the aftermath of IRNSS-1A failure?

Offline vyoma

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #61 on: 02/03/2017 02:12 AM »
As per this report, 1H was anyway supposed to be built by March 2017 with ISRO handholding private contractors. So, I guess, they may have already started building it.

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #62 on: 02/22/2017 10:03 AM »
From the Annual Report 2016-17

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The space agencies of India and Japan have agreed to further enhance cooperation by signing a new MoU, which enables inclusion of satellite navigation and planetary exploration as additional areas ofcooperation. Both agencies have also agreed to conduct a joint experiment to study Venus atmosphereby collecting signals from JAXA’s Akatsuki mission by ISRO’s ground stations (IDSN). JAXA has agreedto support ISRO to establish a ground station in Japan to support NavIC satellite constellation.

Offline vineethgk

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #63 on: 03/05/2017 07:26 AM »
Interview with Nilesh M Desai, Deputy Director, SATCOM & Navigation Applications Area, SAC, ISRO
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Currently, the main challenge is miniaturization. ISRO has already made receivers for both standard and restricted services. We have also shared information such as frequency and other aspects with private vendors and students to work on projects. However, the receiver being used currently is the size of a box. It will reach common people only when it can be embedded in a chip for mobile phone use. We hope that by the year-end, it will have commercial applications.
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Within India and 1500 km of its periphery, we have observed up to 5 meters accuracy. Out of around five to six applications today, only Galileo has messaging interface embedded - a feature one will be able to use in NavIC. This feature will be helpful when a command center wants to send warnings to a specific geographic area. For example, fishermen using the system can be warned about a cyclone.
That '5m accuracy' mentioned above must be for the civilian Standard Positioning Service signals.
« Last Edit: 03/05/2017 07:30 AM by vineethgk »

Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #64 on: 03/12/2017 04:12 PM »
India now includes those countries who have own navigation system.
Find Best comparison between all countries Navigation system below.
http://newser.in/good-news/indias-own-navigation-system-navic/

:) i dont know when NAVIC will be operational, have any idea ?
is available for public or only for governmental use ?

Offline sportyfailure

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Re: NavIC/IRNSS discussion
« Reply #65 on: 04/21/2017 04:19 PM »
India now includes those countries who have own navigation system.
Find Best comparison between all countries Navigation system below.
http://newser.in/good-news/indias-own-navigation-system-navic/

:) i dont know when NAVIC will be operational, have any idea ?
is available for public or only for governmental use ?

NAVIC is reportedly operational.

It has both public and military modes.

Reports say regular GPS/GLONASS receivers are not compatible with NAVIC due to different frequency of operation and protocols. ISRO was sponsoring development of public receivers for various types of hardware like mobile devices, civil aircraft, merchant ships etc. but progress is unknown.
« Last Edit: 04/21/2017 04:20 PM by sportyfailure »

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