Author Topic: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?  (Read 46279 times)

Offline mheney

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #20 on: 01/14/2014 04:23 pm »
What can an MCP do that a traditional spacesuit cannot?

Do the astronauts still need to spend hours in the airlock acclimatising to avoid the bends?

The theory is much better mobility with much less bulk.

Airlock depress time is dependent on the difference in pressure between the normal pressure on-board and the pressure in the suits.  If you're using the same pressure, you could just suit up and go.

The problem is that operating a normal suit at 14.7 psi makes moving the joints a major chore.

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #21 on: 01/14/2014 06:21 pm »
What can an MCP do that a traditional spacesuit cannot?

Do the astronauts still need to spend hours in the airlock acclimatising to avoid the bends?

The theory is much better mobility with much less bulk.

Well it's much less "theory" than fact since that's what all the testing has shown. Much higher mobilty, much higher dexterity, with far less energy "fighting" the suit pressurization at the joints.
Less bulky but you tend to run into thickness issues at "full" (14.7psi) counter pressure but it greatly depends on the materials used. I understand the MIT "Biosuit" experiments have found suitable modern materials to allow full function, full pressure suits.
Quote
Airlock depress time is dependent on the difference in pressure between the normal pressure on-board and the pressure in the suits.  If you're using the same pressure, you could just suit up and go.

The problem is that operating a normal suit at 14.7 psi makes moving the joints a major chore.

In a normal pressure suit moving a joint has to overcome the internal pressur to "bend" the joint because the suit wants to "expand" and remain rigid. (Part of the reason they are called "balloon" suits) Meanwhile the MCP is applying "pressure" directly to the skin and therefore does not "oppose" the motion of the joints in any direction. The only part of the suit that is actually carrying any "pressure" is the helmet which is normally attached to a chest/torso piece.

What the majority of concern with using MCP has been is centered around avoiding "voids" when moving. If you've worn a tight set of long-johns you probably know that they can "gap" in places like behind the knee or inside the elbow. There are also places like the small of the back and the palm of the hand that cause "gaps" in the MCP coverage. Early work used foam or air-bags to fill the gaps, more recent work has advanced those "fillers" and now includes interconnected air resivours and "gell" packs so that any movement automatically fills any gaps and adjusts as the person moves around in the suit.

If you were wearing a "full-pressure" MCP in a "full-pressure" spacecraft then to EVA all you'd do is attach the helmet and life support pack and cycle through the lock. No pre-breathing, no chance of the bends etc.

Once a system is varified that can go from full-to-no pressure on the MCP counter-pressure not only would there no longer be any donning/doffing issues but an astronaut could actually wear their "spacesuit" as clothinig. Should there be an emergency such as a blow-out the astronaut only needs gloves and a helmet to be "fully-sealed" and the "helmet" can actually be a pressurized "plastic-bag" for all intents and purposes as long as it seals to the torso/neck connection.

All in all handy stuff to have if you really want to explore/exploit space on a regular basis :)

Randy
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Offline manboy

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #22 on: 01/14/2014 07:09 pm »
What can an MCP do that a traditional spacesuit cannot?

Do the astronauts still need to spend hours in the airlock acclimatising to avoid the bends?

The theory is much better mobility with much less bulk.

Airlock depress time is dependent on the difference in pressure between the normal pressure on-board and the pressure in the suits.  If you're using the same pressure, you could just suit up and go.

The problem is that operating a normal suit at 14.7 psi makes moving the joints a major chore.
Spacesuits don't need to operate at 14.7 psi because you can depress directly to about 8.4 psi with no ill effects. This is why a lot of zero pre-breathe suits either operate around that pressure or start there and than lower it during the EVA.

What can an MCP do that a traditional spacesuit cannot?

Do the astronauts still need to spend hours in the airlock acclimatising to avoid the bends?

The theory is much better mobility with much less bulk.

Well it's much less "theory" than fact since that's what all the testing has shown. Much higher mobilty, much higher dexterity, with far less energy "fighting" the suit pressurization at the joints.
Less bulky but you tend to run into thickness issues at "full" (14.7psi) counter pressure but it greatly depends on the materials used. I understand the MIT "Biosuit" experiments have found suitable modern materials to allow full function, full pressure suits.
Quote
Airlock depress time is dependent on the difference in pressure between the normal pressure on-board and the pressure in the suits.  If you're using the same pressure, you could just suit up and go.

The problem is that operating a normal suit at 14.7 psi makes moving the joints a major chore.
In a normal pressure suit moving a joint has to overcome the internal pressur to "bend" the joint because the suit wants to "expand" and remain rigid.
That only true for soft suits, hard suits do not expand. Most modern suit designs are hybrids between the two.

What can an MCP do that a traditional spacesuit cannot?

Do the astronauts still need to spend hours in the airlock acclimatising to avoid the bends?

The theory is much better mobility with much less bulk.

Well it's much less "theory" than fact since that's what all the testing has shown. Much higher mobilty, much higher dexterity, with far less energy "fighting" the suit pressurization at the joints.
Less bulky but you tend to run into thickness issues at "full" (14.7psi) counter pressure but it greatly depends on the materials used. I understand the MIT "Biosuit" experiments have found suitable modern materials to allow full function, full pressure suits.
The last real research I've seen was by Webb. It seems like for the past decade all Dava has done is shown off a non-functional mock-up.
« Last Edit: 01/14/2014 07:20 pm by manboy »
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Offline John-H

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #23 on: 01/14/2014 07:35 pm »
I get it that working in a spacesuit can be difficult, tiring and painful, but how much of this can be relieved by specific exercises. I know that I start off each new ski season with muscles that can be painful, underperforming and possibly dangerous, but after a month or two into the season I am very comfortable and effective. I could see that regular recent training could make working in a space suit much more comfortable, and especially for a MCP suit.

How easy or practical is it to do regular exercise in an inflated space suit?

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #24 on: 01/14/2014 08:39 pm »
In a normal pressure suit moving a joint has to overcome the internal pressur to "bend" the joint because the suit wants to "expand" and remain rigid.
That only true for soft suits, hard suits do not expand. Most modern suit designs are hybrids between the two.

No there is still resistance even with hard suits or hybrids. Not as much but it is still there and the joints in hard suits and hybrids tend to be complex due to the moving and sliding seals.

Quote
Quote
Well it's much less "theory" than fact since that's what all the testing has shown. Much higher mobilty, much higher dexterity, with far less energy "fighting" the suit pressurization at the joints.
Less bulky but you tend to run into thickness issues at "full" (14.7psi) counter pressure but it greatly depends on the materials used. I understand the MIT "Biosuit" experiments have found suitable modern materials to allow full function, full pressure suits.
The last real research I've seen was by Webb. It seems like for the past decade all Dava has done is shown off a non-functional mock-up.

Waldie did some research including stuff sponsored/supported by NASA:
http://quest.nasa.gov/projects/spacewardbound/australia2009/docs/Waldie%202005%20MCP-Paper.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14638463

Other NASA sponsored work was done by UC-Berkley (again, though not followed up)
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/reports/CB-1106/ucb01.pdf


Dava has worked with several groups on studies of materials for both active and passive MCP suits. She at least looks better in the "mock-up" than Webb's assistant did :)
http://web.mit.edu/aeroastro/www/people/dnewman/pdf2/AIAA_Space2012_BH_Final.pdf
http://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/strg/holschuh.html
http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/81144

Even Hamilton-Sundstrand got "into" the concept, though being a NIAC study they REALLY went for the "high-tech" end of things :)
http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/714Hodgson.pdf

Others:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15828639
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2003/00000074/00000008/art00004
http://ojs.cnr.ncsu.edu/index.php/JTATM/article/view/2020

Not a space suit but THIS was an interesting find:
http://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/415052

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #25 on: 01/14/2014 08:44 pm »
I get it that working in a spacesuit can be difficult, tiring and painful, but how much of this can be relieved by specific exercises. I know that I start off each new ski season with muscles that can be painful, underperforming and possibly dangerous, but after a month or two into the season I am very comfortable and effective. I could see that regular recent training could make working in a space suit much more comfortable, and especially for a MCP suit.

How easy or practical is it to do regular exercise in an inflated space suit?
Astronauts spend months training with their space suits both in microgravity flights and the Neutral Bouyuncy tank. It helps but IIRC they still run into serious problems after a few hours. Injuries are common, especially hands and fingers.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline carmelo

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #26 on: 01/20/2014 11:25 pm »
Is possible that MACE (Modified ACE) in EVA modality will be more confortable and sliding that the old A7LB suit?

Offline manboy

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #27 on: 02/08/2014 10:19 am »
Is possible that MACE (Modified ACE) in EVA modality will be more confortable and sliding that the old A7LB suit?
What do you mean by sliding?
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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #28 on: 05/12/2014 05:19 pm »
Upgraded Space Shuttle 'Pumpkin-Suit' Tested For Asteroid Mission EVA | Video

Published on May 12, 2014
NASA is testing a next generation Modified Advanced Crew Escape Suit (MACES), formerly ACES, for possible use on extravehicular activities. Astronauts Stan Love and Steve Bowen, tested the suits underwater in the Neutral Buoyancy Lab.

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Offline newpylong

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #29 on: 03/19/2015 04:50 pm »

Offline vulture4

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #30 on: 03/20/2015 06:14 pm »
What can an MCP do that a traditional spacesuit cannot?

Do the astronauts still need to spend hours in the airlock acclimatising to avoid the bends?
Three factors, cabin pressure, suit pressure, and cabin oxygen fraction all have to be considered. The risk of decompression sickness depends on the ratio between cabin and suit pressure.

With the crewman breathing 100% oxygen, the suit can have a pressure as low as 240milibar (mb) and still allow normal blood oxygen levels. But generally a cabin pressure of 1 bar requires a suit pressure around 550 mb to avoid the need for any decompression protocol. This much higher pressure is considerably more difficult to achieve in a comfortable suit, whether balloon or mechanical. Cabin pressure can be reduced by increasing cabin O2 concentration, however as oxygen fraction increases so does the risk of fire. Skylab used a 72% oxygen cabin at 340mb cabin pressure and 255mb suit pressure, and allowed the crew to transition directly from cabin to suit with no nitrogen washout period. Some of the operational Russian spacesuits operated at a relatively high pressure early in the EVA and bled down to a lower pressure as nitrogen was washed out so that it would be easier to move later when the crewman was more fatigued.

While I agree that there have been some promising tests, most of the MCP suits provided less than the pressure required for normal oxygenation of the blood and so required pressure breathing; the breathing gas is at a higher pressure than the chest so one must forcibly exhale against a high resistance. Anyone who has taken classical altitude chamber testing may remember this, which is a bit fatiguing even with a helmet.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2015 06:51 pm by vulture4 »

Offline mvpel

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #31 on: 04/26/2015 02:02 am »
Increased levels of CO2 induce physiological responses which allow the body to better tolerate lower concentrations of oxygen.

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Offline carmelo

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #32 on: 04/27/2015 06:01 pm »
Any about the overgarnment of this suit?
Integrate white?

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #33 on: 04/27/2015 07:14 pm »
Any about the overgarnment of this suit?
Integrate white?

Actually, I'm thinking different colors for different astronauts. Red, Green Blue, Orange, Yellow, etc. This would allow quick and simple identification of personnel in space.

     Basicly primary colors.  I'd also like to suggest that the outermost covering be a "rubberized" or otherwise nonporus outer covering to minimize dust and dirt entrapment in the suit fabric.  A nonporus outer covering is MUCH easier to clean off than a porus fabric covering.

     While I thing that a more compact design for the helmet should be examined, the use of a padded nonporus outer covering for the areas not affecting vision should be considered to minimize potentile damage to the helmet from loose debris, or impact.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #34 on: 04/27/2015 08:17 pm »

Actually, I'm thinking different colors for different astronauts. Red, Green Blue, Orange, Yellow, etc. This would allow quick and simple identification of personnel in space.

     Basicly primary colors.  I'd also like to suggest that the outermost covering be a "rubberized" or otherwise nonporus outer covering to minimize dust and dirt entrapment in the suit fabric.  A nonporus outer covering is MUCH easier to clean off than a porus fabric covering.

 

Neither are good ideas.  Thermal considerations will over ride both.  For ID, arm and leg bands or stripes are all that is needed.

Offline carmelo

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Re: Why ACES spacesuit for Orion?
« Reply #35 on: 04/30/2015 04:17 pm »
Yes,i think that for thermal reason a spacesuit for EVA can be only white (with distinctive coulored band on helmet,legs and arms).
I'm curious to see if the white termal overgarnment will integrate (as in A7L and A7LB Apollo space suits) or removable for wear only for EVA (as in early A6L Apollo space suit).

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