Author Topic: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission  (Read 45800 times)

Offline M129K

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #20 on: 09/12/2013 04:27 PM »
So this DRM is essentially moot if it is true that the DSH has just been cancelled?

Wait whaaat?

Offline newpylong

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #21 on: 09/12/2013 05:03 PM »
So this DRM is essentially moot if it is true that the DSH has just been cancelled?

The DSH would have to be a real project and not a concept to be cancelled. Sounds as if they are just going to be tasked with a derivative (maybe more related to this with funding?).

Online KelvinZero

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #22 on: 09/13/2013 09:53 AM »
Phobos/Deimos is what I wish they were considering!!
Patience, grasshopper! We'll need to do some envelope expansion before we go for the 500-900 day Phobos/Deimos missions. But we'll get there.

My (non expert) preference would be that instead of doing a year+ mission in preparation for a two+ year mission, your preparation should consist of an unmanned version of the two+ year mission, while simultaneously performing a full two+ year manned test of the hab much closer to earth.

I don't understand the envelop expansion concept. If you are not testing something with the necessary push or lifesupport for the later mission, then you are not testing the exact hardware. If the one+ year mission reveals an issue, I would think it had pretty similar odds of being fatal.. except that it also would not have the redundancy of a previous massive unmanned cargo/survey mission.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #23 on: 09/13/2013 09:56 AM »
Phobos/Deimos is what I wish they were considering!!
Patience, grasshopper! We'll need to do some envelope expansion before we go for the 500-900 day Phobos/Deimos missions. But we'll get there.

My (non expert) preference would be that instead of doing a year+ mission in preparation for a two+ year mission, your preparation should consist of an unmanned version of the two+ year mission, while simultaneously performing a full two+ year manned test of the hab much closer to earth.

I don't understand the envelop expansion concept. If you are not testing something with the necessary push or lifesupport for the later mission, then you are not testing the exact hardware. If the one+ year mission reveals an issue, I would think it had pretty similar odds of being fatal.. except that it also would not have the redundancy of a previous massive unmanned cargo/survey mission.
...and yet Apollo did envelop expansion to an almost silly degree. They did Mercury, then Gemini (gradually longer), then Apollo, demonstrating orbital flight of the capsule, then docking with the LEM and manuevering it in LEO then a flight around the moon, then a flight around the moon and going down in the LEM to near the surface just to come back up, then all the way down for a little bit and right back up before coming back and doing longer missions.
« Last Edit: 09/13/2013 09:57 AM by Robotbeat »
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Offline Proponent

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #24 on: 09/13/2013 10:14 AM »
By the way, in one of Garver's interviews (which, unfortunately, I can't find now) after the announcement of her departure from NASA, she mentioned that it was the doctors who killed the idea of actually visiting a free-range NEA.  (It's a shame this wasn't discussed at the time; I suppose it was embarrassing to the Obama administration.)  So I would guess there are some envelope-expanding intermediate steps envisioned.

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: NASA managers gevaluate yearlon deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #25 on: 09/13/2013 10:36 AM »
A real DSH would probably need to use massive amounts of propellant for GCR shielding or be small and lightweight and have a much shorter deep space flight time.



Page 13 "Shielding has much less effectiveness against GCR."

Page 36 "A duration of several hundred days is a non-starter for in-transit space travel"

From: Deep Space Habitat Project   Radiation Studies for a Long Duration Deep Space Transit Habitat
By Lora Bailey     Engineering Directorate NASA Johnson Space Center  10/31/2012
At: http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Bailey_10-31-12/Bailey_10-31-12.pdf


Or:

""Galactic Cosmic Rays: Exposure to Galactic Cosmic Rays (GCRs) may represent a show-stopper for human exploration in deep space [10]. The only known solution is to provide sufficient radiation shielding mass." 

From: Let’s Haul Asteroids!  By Paul Spudis    April 5, 2013   
At: http://www.spudislunarresources.com/blog/lets-haul-asteroids/

Between real GCR risks, lack of Congressional support for such a costly mission, high Loss of Mission and Loss of Crew numbers, lack of interest from our international space exploration partners, Lori Garver resigning as Deputy Administrator of NASA, and a new President by 2017, it seems that a year long deep space asteroid mission isn't relevant at this time to NASA's beyond low Earth orbit human spaceflight. 

Testing a DSH on the Moon for a few decades could be very useful. Two meters of regolith is a pretty good GCR shield.


Edited.   
« Last Edit: 09/13/2013 10:39 AM by HappyMartian »
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Offline HappyMartian

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #26 on: 09/13/2013 11:21 AM »
By the way, in one of Garver's interviews (which, unfortunately, I can't find now) after the announcement of her departure from NASA, she mentioned that it was the doctors who killed the idea of actually visiting a free-range NEA.  (It's a shame this wasn't discussed at the time; I suppose it was embarrassing to the Obama administration.)  So I would guess there are some envelope-expanding intermediate steps envisioned.


Real deep space experts understood the risks of the GCR issue before 2010.

Perhaps she was just confessing to the President's and her own inability or unwillingness to listen to our international space exploration partners and American folks who have significant scientific and technical knowledge and relevant experience with the many challenges and risks of human spaceflight and have long understood the real benefits of using Lunar regolith for GCR protection.

Space science is a harsh and "embarrassing" mistress. America needs NASA's leadership to be folks who listen to American and international space experts, not folks who ignore the real universe while blathering about risky, costly, and extremely difficult missions that don't impress Congress.

Congress, not the President, is where NASA gets its money.

One of the early forms of Lunar ISRU will be using the regolith for efficient GCR, meteorite, and thermal shielding.  And that Lunar regolith is a great deal!
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #27 on: 09/13/2013 12:08 PM »
Wrong forum section. You're looking for the lunar section.
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Online KelvinZero

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #28 on: 09/13/2013 01:07 PM »
...and yet Apollo did envelop expansion to an almost silly degree. They did Mercury, then Gemini (gradually longer), then Apollo, demonstrating orbital flight of the capsule, then docking with the LEM and manuevering it in LEO then a flight around the moon, then a flight around the moon and going down in the LEM to near the surface just to come back up, then all the way down for a little bit and right back up before coming back and doing longer missions.
Yes but they started not knowing how to build rockets that did not explode on the launch pad :)
Right there is a really good reason to start small and work your way up.

You haven't really specified what your argument is because you havent said designing the Mercury is equivalent to ____ etc. The parts you mentioned with the LEM seem very sensible to me because it was not optimizing all the hardware for a half-good-enough mission, it was perfecting and testing half the steps of a full mission. Thats what you would be doing by sending an unmanned mission to a moon of Mars using the same hardware as for a manned mission.

If we were discussing an actual landing and return on Mars I think a series of smaller prototype missions would make sense. We should probably land some much larger objects on mars before finally designing a manned lander. Again though, envelop expansion in that case involves starting with unmanned.

Also, by arguing only with analogy you haven't dealt with any of the points I raised. What is it that we test with this shorter mission that is not just as fatal if the test fails? What is the flaw in my arguments that  my alternative is safer and more relevant?

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #29 on: 09/13/2013 02:00 PM »
Wrong forum section. You're looking for the lunar section.

Nope. I'm suggesting why we have had over three years of not having effective leadership of NASA's human beyond low Earth orbit mission planning and why a deep space asteroid mission, and all the Mars hype, is going exactly nowhere. 

Political appointees that don't understand space science and expect astronauts to fly long and risky nonrobust missions in a GCR rich environment that is far outside of the current safe flight envelope are simply encouraging catastrophic failure modes. 

Ms. Garver couldn't convince Congress of the wisdom of her and the President's asteroid and Mars visions precisely because those plans were not based on the realities of GCRs, space science, America's best interest, fiscal realities, and the interests and desires of our international space exploration partners.

Instead, the President's own party rebelled against his anti-Moon and pro asteroid and Mars rhetoric. A bipartisan Congress voted for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Authorization Act of 2010 also known as PUBLIC LAW 111–267—OCT. 11, 2010, an excellent space law which the President reluctantly signed and many space cadets even today choose to ignore.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Mark S

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #31 on: 09/13/2013 02:31 PM »
It would be kind of embarrassing to launch a year-long $billion+ mission to a NEO "asteroid", only to find out that it was a used-up Saturn SIV-B stage upon arrival.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #32 on: 09/13/2013 05:05 PM »
It would be kind of embarrassing to launch a year-long $billion+ mission to a NEO "asteroid", only to find out that it was a used-up Saturn SIV-B stage upon arrival.
It's not actually that hard to tell it's a rocket stage before you get there. Look at the spectra and light curve and how it responds to light pressure. That will tell you.
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Offline HappyMartian

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #33 on: 09/14/2013 06:19 AM »
It would be kind of embarrassing to launch a year-long $billion+ mission to a NEO "asteroid", only to find out that it was a used-up Saturn SIV-B stage upon arrival.


Last numbers I saw on such mission suggested it would cost around a 120 billion dollars and be the highest risk human mission NASA had ever attempted.

Of course the GCRs are the real jumbo elephant hiding under the carpet. But don't worry about GCRs, a political speech or two will make them easy to deal with. 


Edited.
« Last Edit: 09/14/2013 06:20 AM by HappyMartian »
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #34 on: 09/15/2013 05:00 AM »
So this DRM is essentially moot if it is true that the DSH has just been cancelled?

Not really they still could modify a BA330 or Russian DOS type module for the mission.
If fact this would likely be faster to develop.

Looking at the art work shown of DSH for this mission it's still in a very early draft.

The module shown is a little small for a mission of that duration.

The first iteration of the Mars direct ERV had a similar habitable volume and was rejected due to living and storage space concerns.
« Last Edit: 09/15/2013 05:27 AM by Patchouli »

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #35 on: 09/15/2013 12:59 PM »
By the way, in one of Garver's interviews (which, unfortunately, I can't find now) after the announcement of her departure from NASA, she mentioned that it was the doctors who killed the idea of actually visiting a free-range NEA.  (It's a shame this wasn't discussed at the time; I suppose it was embarrassing to the Obama administration.)  So I would guess there are some envelope-expanding intermediate steps envisioned.


Proponent, this might be the Lori Garver quote you wanted:


"The long-pull intent was for astronauts to go to an asteroid for some hundreds-of-days mission, but the medical community is not prepared to allow astronauts to do that yet."

From: Exit Interview: Lori Garver on NASA’s Controversial Plan to Move an Asteroid  By Corey S. Powell  August 16, 2013
At: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/2013/08/16/exit-interview-lori-garver-on-nasas-mission-to-move-an-asteroid/#.UjWHk39H5Cy
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #36 on: 09/15/2013 01:17 PM »
I still don’t feel this mission is worthy of risking astronauts as I’ve said before. If you want to shake down the spacecraft send it unmanned. If you want a “cool factor”, send Robonaut which will excite the techie- obsessed kids compared to a bunch of “greybeard Astros”...
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Offline Proponent

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #37 on: 09/15/2013 01:36 PM »
Proponent, this might be the Lori Garver quote you wanted:


"The long-pull intent was for astronauts to go to an asteroid for some hundreds-of-days mission, but the medical community is not prepared to allow astronauts to do that yet."

From: Exit Interview: Lori Garver on NASA’s Controversial Plan to Move an Asteroid  By Corey S. Powell  August 16, 2013
At: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/2013/08/16/exit-interview-lori-garver-on-nasas-mission-to-move-an-asteroid/#.UjWHk39H5Cy

Verily, 'tis indeed that quote which I sought.  Thank you!

Online Robotbeat

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Re: NASA managers evaluate yearlong deep space asteroid mission
« Reply #38 on: 09/15/2013 03:59 PM »
I still don’t feel this mission is worthy of risking astronauts as I’ve said before. If you want to shake down the spacecraft send it unmanned. If you want a “cool factor”, send Robonaut which will excite the techie- obsessed kids compared to a bunch of “greybeard Astros”...
what about Gemini and all the several Apollos until 11? Two of them went all the way around the Moon, one almost touched down.

There's a reason why we need to do this sort of mission. We can't do a 500-900 day mission right off the bat.

And by following your logic, we may not have any human exploration at all.
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OK maybe this is a trivial question, but why is this thread pinned on sticky mode?  ???
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