Author Topic: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)  (Read 369277 times)

Offline newpylong

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #20 on: 05/09/2013 05:01 PM »
RS-25 and J-2X rolled under one umbrella. Makes sense.

http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/J2X/posts/post_1368044101141.html
« Last Edit: 05/09/2013 05:02 PM by newpylong »

Offline spectre9

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #21 on: 05/09/2013 09:50 PM »
This document is quite old now but I've only just seen it on NTRS.

Advanced Booster EDRR.

First info I've seen about the NG tanks.


Offline Lobo

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #22 on: 05/10/2013 06:59 PM »
This document is quite old now but I've only just seen it on NTRS.

Advanced Booster EDRR.

First info I've seen about the NG tanks.



Interesting note on the Aerojet booster proposal:

"Enhances affordability - potential synergies with other users may enhance affordability by distributing design, development and production costs".

I'm assuming this is a reference to Antares perhaps using a single, 2-chamber AJ-1E6 engine, where the Aerojet booster would user probably 4 of them?
And the work done on the AJ series and derivatives for Antares would then dovetailed into an SLS booster for synergies?

Any chance that ULA would ever consider going with an AJ-1E6 to replace the RD-180 for Atlas V?  It'd be a pretty similar engine in many respects, but US-built.
Would it be difficult to modify Atlas V for it?  Or not too bad?

If so...there's further potential synergies.  That would make me lean towards Aerojet's booster concept, as much as I really like the F-1's.
:-)

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #23 on: 05/16/2013 06:54 PM »
Mobile Launcher Readied for SLS
May 15, 2013

NASA's Space Launch System (SLS) heavy-lift launch vehicle will be carried to Launch Pad 39B at Kennedy Space Center in Florida atop an upgraded mobile launcher (ML) for missions to near-Earth asteroids, Mars and other new destinations in the solar system.

The agency has awarded a contract to J.P. Donovan Construction Inc. of Rockledge, Fla., to modify the ML, which is one of the key elements of ground support equipment that is being upgraded by the Ground Systems Development and Operations (GSDO) Program office at Kennedy to carry the SLS rocket for its first mission in 2017.

The work under the firm fixed-price contact will begin at the end of this month and is targeted to be completed in 18 months.

"Completing more of the work sooner will create more time to validate systems later as the first launch date approaches for the new SLS vehicle," said Mike Canicatti, the technical integration manager in the GSDO Program office at Kennedy.

The mobile launcher that currently is positioned near the Vehicle Assembly Building originally was constructed in 2008 and 2009 and now it will be structurally modified to meet requirements for NASA's new mission.

The major work to be completed under this contract is widening the exhaust space in the mobile launcher base to support two solid rocket boosters and four main engines. Essentially, the exhaust hole will be increased from an approximate 24-by-24-foot space to a 32-by-65-foot space.

Upgrades to the mobile launcher are part of Kennedy's efforts to expand its ground support infrastructure to support the SLS rocket and a variety of other launch vehicles.

When this contract is completed, another contract will begin to install the umbilicals, access arm and other ground support equipment on the mobile launcher.

"We’re on a tight schedule to get everything in place on the mobile launcher and check 47 different subsystems," Canicatti said.

Midwest Steel Inc. of Detroit will be a major subcontractor to J.P. Donovan Construction.

The flight test in 2017 will send an uncrewed Orion spacecraft into lunar orbit. NASA's asteroid initiative, which is part of the agency's proposed budget request for fiscal year 2014, will use SLS and Orion to send astronauts to study a small asteroid that will have been redirected robotically to a stable orbit near the moon.

http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/ground/ML-SLS.html

Photo Caption:  The mobile launcher parked near the Vehicle Assembly Building at Kennedy Space Center will be upgraded to support NASA's Space Launch System heavy-lift rocket. Image credit: NASA/Michael Canicatti, GSDO

Offline renclod

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #24 on: 05/17/2013 09:14 AM »
This document is quite old now but I've only just seen it on NTRS.

Advanced Booster EDRR.


An intriguing note on Aerojet's high performance booster concept:

" Enhances performance - allows the use of a smaller booster for a given thrust level (RP allows for smaller booster due to net density impulse of RP over hydrogen )"

Is a hydrogen fueled booster even competing ?!


Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #25 on: 05/17/2013 11:20 AM »
Is a hydrogen fueled booster even competing ?!

I'm not convinced that LH2-fuelled motors are really suited for the booster role.  The only reason Delta-IVH uses them is because the whole point of the design is a common CBC.
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DON'T PROPAGANDISE, FLY!!!

Online notsorandom

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #26 on: 05/17/2013 01:01 PM »
This document is quite old now but I've only just seen it on NTRS.

Advanced Booster EDRR.


An intriguing note on Aerojet's high performance booster concept:

" Enhances performance - allows the use of a smaller booster for a given thrust level (RP allows for smaller booster due to net density impulse of RP over hydrogen )"

Is a hydrogen fueled booster even competing ?!


Yes there have been serious proposals to use the RS-68. It is not as crazy idea as it first looks. The engines are exist now, though may need some modifications to human rate. It uses the same propellant combination as the rest of the rocket so the launch pad infrastructure is greatly simplified.

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #27 on: 05/17/2013 03:26 PM »
Is a hydrogen fueled booster even competing ?!
Yes there have been serious proposals to use the RS-68.

Please specify what corporation has formally entered the SLS advanced booster competition with H2 fuel and a RS-68 engine.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2013 03:27 PM by TomH »

Offline renclod

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #28 on: 05/17/2013 04:09 PM »
... The [RS-68] engines are exist now,
I used to be a fan of RS-68 for the monster rocket's *core* (Ares V at the time). Commonality with a production engine and all that.

Quote
... so the launch pad infrastructure is greatly simplified.
Good thinking IMO to simplify pad infrastructure, where SRBs are shining: no fueling required on pad ;) also no de-fueling required after a countdown abort ;)

 
« Last Edit: 05/17/2013 05:25 PM by renclod »

Online notsorandom

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #29 on: 05/17/2013 04:49 PM »
Is a hydrogen fueled booster even competing ?!
Yes there have been serious proposals to use the RS-68.

Please specify what corporation has formally entered the SLS advanced booster competition with H2 fuel and a RS-68 engine.
It is on L2.

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #30 on: 05/17/2013 04:54 PM »

During a presentation on April 4 of this year, Mr. Gerstenmaier showed a slide (below) that had a couple of things that I hadn't seen in previous presentations.

What are the "Dual Use Upper stage" and "in-space long-term cryopropulsion element?" I'd guess that the "Upper stage" is what we've been calling CPS, or is that mistaken?
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline Mark S

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #31 on: 05/17/2013 05:13 PM »

During a presentation on April 4 of this year, Mr. Gerstenmaier showed a slide (below) that had a couple of things that I hadn't seen in previous presentations.

What are the "Dual Use Upper stage" and "in-space long-term cryopropulsion element?" I'd guess that the "Upper stage" is what we've been calling CPS, or is that mistaken?

My guess is that the dual-use upper stage will be an 8.4m upper stage with four RL-10 engines, which can be used both during ascent to increase payload to LEO, and as an EDS for BLEO missions. Thus the DUUS (I prefer Medium Upper Stage or MUS) will enable BLEO missions prior to the development of the dedicated Large Upper Stage and the Cryogenic Propulsion Stage.

The Large Upper Stage will be 8.4m diameter with one or two J2X engines, and will be used purely during ascent to maximize payload to LEO. And, since the LUS will use all of its prop during ascent, NASA will also need a dedicated in-space cryo stage for EDS purposes. I believe this stage has been called the CPS in other documentation, and is not the same as the LUS or the dual-use (medium) upper stage.

I'm not sure if a Block-2 SLS with Large Upper Stage, CPS, and MPCV will even fit through the VAB doors. Maybe they're planning a dual-launch profile for any missions that require a CPS.

Mark S.

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #32 on: 05/17/2013 08:16 PM »
I'm not sure if a Block-2 SLS with Large Upper Stage, CPS, and MPCV will even fit through the VAB doors. Maybe they're planning a dual-launch profile for any missions that require a CPS.

That would be a 3 stage rocket (not including boosters). The maximum possible vehicle height is 456'/139m.
 
Dynetics illustrated using the Ares I US atop its advanced booster as a single stick LV. I wonder whether that single stick could be used as the Human Rated launcher in a 1.5 launch architecture and the same US used on the SLS. S-IVB was a very good dual use US.

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #33 on: 05/17/2013 08:49 PM »
What are the "Dual Use Upper stage" [?]

OK, I'll commit the solecism of replying to myself by noting that the entire bit on the slide was,

Quote
Advanced Booster as current plan, while assessing Dual Use Upper stage as an alternate next evolution step for affordable mission capture.

So, could that "while" indicate the possibility of remaining with five-segment SRB and making up for the Advanced Booster performance with the DUUS?
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Online edkyle99

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #34 on: 05/17/2013 09:05 PM »
So, could that "while" indicate the possibility of remaining with five-segment SRB and making up for the Advanced Booster performance with the DUUS?
I think that is clear.  The presentation shows a 105 tonne capability using five-segment booster and a bigger-than-ICPS upper stage.  This is a compromise rocket that can do the mission to nowhere for the White House.  Its development would make Mars even less likely because it would stop Advanced Booster and J-2X.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 05/17/2013 09:26 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline Lobo

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #35 on: 05/17/2013 09:06 PM »

During a presentation on April 4 of this year, Mr. Gerstenmaier showed a slide (below) that had a couple of things that I hadn't seen in previous presentations.

What are the "Dual Use Upper stage" and "in-space long-term cryopropulsion element?" I'd guess that the "Upper stage" is what we've been calling CPS, or is that mistaken?

My guess is that the dual-use upper stage will be an 8.4m upper stage with four RL-10 engines, which can be used both during ascent to increase payload to LEO, and as an EDS for BLEO missions. Thus the DUUS (I prefer Medium Upper Stage or MUS) will enable BLEO missions prior to the development of the dedicated Large Upper Stage and the Cryogenic Propulsion Stage.

The Large Upper Stage will be 8.4m diameter with one or two J2X engines, and will be used purely during ascent to maximize payload to LEO. And, since the LUS will use all of its prop during ascent, NASA will also need a dedicated in-space cryo stage for EDS purposes. I believe this stage has been called the CPS in other documentation, and is not the same as the LUS or the dual-use (medium) upper stage.

I'm not sure if a Block-2 SLS with Large Upper Stage, CPS, and MPCV will even fit through the VAB doors. Maybe they're planning a dual-launch profile for any missions that require a CPS.

Mark S.


Yea, I think it simply means that in that “105mt Post 2021” that that path would develop just one upper stage.  The “Block 1B” upper stage with four RL-10’s on it.  That will provide some of that last ascent, and then do the EDS functions.  Hence “dual use”. 

Whereas that current “PoR”, which is the next one down needs both a J2X powered 2nd stage, and an EDS stage.  The 2nd stage would burn all the way to orbit, so the dedicated EDS needs not do any of the ascent. That would be the “CPS”.  And it would be built to be capable of long loiter times with all the newest LH2 boiloff reduction tech in it.
That’s the current official PoR.  The “SLS Evolved” or “Block 1B” is competing with it to become the new official PoR.  And I think factors in the question, “Do we really need a CPS that has long loiter times?”.  If not, if you are doing your EDS burn shortly after ascent, then you don’t need that capability.  Or it could be added later. 

I think the longest loiter time of any mission even being considered is for Boeing reusable lunar lander and gateway proposal.  In which a DCSS/ICPS would need to loiter about 2 weeks prior to being used as a crasher stage for the lander.  That would be modified to carry LCH4 as well for the lander. 
So is there really any need for a big, 8m wide dedicated in-space stage?  I think they might be finding the answer at this time is “no”, and the Block 1B “dual purpose” upper stage would work just fine, with the iCPS being used in addition for certain missions.  And it already pretty much exists. 

I’m guessing that’s what they are meaning there.  I could be wrong though.  :-)
« Last Edit: 05/17/2013 09:08 PM by Lobo »

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #36 on: 05/17/2013 09:41 PM »
It is on L2.

I have L2 membership. I am only aware of 3 official entries thus far, ATK, Dynetics, and the AJ proposal.  I may have missed it, but I haven't seen anything about a formal proposal submitted to NASA re. SLS boosters using RS-68 or any H2 engine. Could you please provide a link?

Post Script: I think I found what you are referencing. That is an unnamed source stating than an unnamed entity has/had RS-68 "under consideration." The original question was whether any H2 engines have formally been entered in the advanced booster competition. You answered, "Yes." That is not correct.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2013 09:58 PM by TomH »

Offline spectre9

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #37 on: 05/17/2013 10:03 PM »
The answer is the booster competition has not started.

It's only an engineering demonstration and risk reduction at this time.

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #38 on: 05/18/2013 05:27 PM »
Thread trimmed as this is clearly an update thread. Posts moved here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30554.360

Offline Jim

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #39 on: 05/22/2013 04:12 PM »

Good thinking IMO to simplify pad infrastructure, where SRBs are shining: no fueling required on pad ;) also no de-fueling required after a countdown abort

Actually they complicate the whole launch infrastructure.

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