Author Topic: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)  (Read 84962 times)

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31349
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 9628
  • Likes Given: 299
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #40 on: 03/09/2012 02:53 PM »
But since VAFB exists, it trumps Kodiak

Still, there must be something driving these companies away from places like the Cape and Vandenberg to places like Wallops and Kodiak.

That something is green with numbers on it, I suspect, provided by local governments.

 - Ed Kyle

that was the case with Wallops.  I have heard that OSC somewhat regrets its decision

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8526
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1028
  • Likes Given: 235
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #41 on: 03/09/2012 04:21 PM »
Can I ask why it needs a new pad? Does the Athena III not fit inside the Launch Service Structure at Pad 1?
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8526
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1028
  • Likes Given: 235
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #42 on: 03/09/2012 04:26 PM »
Think I have my answer, the Athena III is ~170' in height, the Launch Service Structure has a hook height of 152' and can only lift 75 tons.
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9589
  • Liked: 352
  • Likes Given: 462
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #43 on: 03/09/2012 05:20 PM »
btw. The earths rotation speed at Kodiak at ~57 north is about 570 mph, and at Vandenberg at ~24 north is 950 mph. For polar that must be overcome and you have about a 380 mph (170 meters per second).


You are wrong.

The required delta-v to fly from Vandenberg or Kodiak to any "polar" orbit is the same, ignoring any doglegs required due to local obstacles.  For example, the delta-V to fly to 98 degrees from Vandenberg is the same as from Kodiak.



Offline Antares

  • ABO^2
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5194
  • Done arguing with amateurs
  • Liked: 345
  • Likes Given: 220
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #44 on: 03/09/2012 05:45 PM »
You're telling me that the delta-v into a retrograde orbit is the same from the Equator as from the Pole?
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31349
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 9628
  • Likes Given: 299

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7436
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 1434
  • Likes Given: 4475
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #46 on: 03/09/2012 06:38 PM »
Honestly, the part that falls apart with all this is dragging the rocket out to Kodiak, for an insignificant paper gain.

I understand your good points. 

Would you say the same of the ESA?   Everything is shipped to South America and they have made it work with still losses.

Do the paper gains work that much differently than launching from say France?
Earth rotation differences are small. Plane change isn't. Having a clear flight path and drop zones are more important considerations than Earth rotation, too. Even existing range and processing infrastructure is more important than the delta-v difference. Thus, Kourou is king of launch site, at least until (and if) Alcantara fully develops.

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8526
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1028
  • Likes Given: 235
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #47 on: 03/09/2012 06:51 PM »
Thus, Kourou is king of launch site, at least until (and if) Alcantara fully develops.

Nah, peak of mt. Everest ;)
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline dchill

  • Member
  • Posts: 86
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #48 on: 03/09/2012 08:54 PM »
Thus, Kourou is king of launch site, at least until (and if) Alcantara fully develops.

Nah, peak of mt. Everest ;)

I was thinking the top of the Chimborazo Volcano
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimborazo_(volcano)

but (to at least flirt with staying on topic) the year-round weekly barge service from Seattle to Kodiak probably makes logistics to KLC better

Offline GClark

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
  • Liked: 28
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #49 on: 03/10/2012 05:35 AM »
I did not realize that Kodiak, having lost anti-missile test work...

 - Ed Kyle

There may be some remorse on this point.  The OSP-3 Sample Mission 1.4 Suborbital Launch/Ballistic Target is baselined for launch from Kodiak.

Edit: The MRD gives the mission two different names.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2012 05:47 AM by GClark »

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10313
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 700
  • Likes Given: 728
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #50 on: 04/10/2012 10:22 PM »
What no Payload Fairing size?

Your slipping Ed...heheh
 
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22327
  • Liked: 608
  • Likes Given: 244
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #51 on: 04/13/2012 01:28 AM »
Well if we are going down this route, how about an Antares with a Castor-120 second stage along with the Castor 30XL 3rd stage?

Edit: to get back on topic, Athena I & II never really had a high flight rate, how will the redux and Athena III fare better?
« Last Edit: 04/13/2012 01:44 AM by Ronsmytheiii »
"Every vision is a joke until the first man accomplishes it; once realized, it becomes commonplace." - Robert Goddard

Offline GClark

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
  • Liked: 28
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #52 on: 04/13/2012 05:53 AM »
It may be that they are working off a series of not-so-out-there assumptions.

If one assumes that:

A) SLS flys twice a year,
B) Liberty gets built and flys twice a year, and
C) All SRM segments will use the same propellant grain and geometry,

then that's a minimum of 30 segments getting manufactured per year.  At some point economies of scale start to kick in.  4 - 6 additional segments shouldn't cost that much more to manufacture.  I do realise that there will be some performance loss due to the non-optimized nature of the first stage segments, but LM/ATK may be rationalizing that the cost savings will out weigh.

Truth in advertising:  Not an engineer.  YMMV applies in all cases. Just my .02

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7436
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 1434
  • Likes Given: 4475
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #53 on: 04/13/2012 01:38 PM »
If there's a darth of options in its performance bracket, few will chance to baseline a payload for a new rocket. Even if proven, which would take a while, would still leave out anything critical, since those usually require a backup launch vehicle. I simply don't quite see a business case. At least not if CRS is successful.

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8526
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1028
  • Likes Given: 235
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #54 on: 04/13/2012 05:02 PM »

That means business for smaller, cheaper launch vehicles. 

 - Ed Kyle

It also means cheaper payloads, since you no longer have all that extra plumbing and related costs.
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline Antares

  • ABO^2
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5194
  • Done arguing with amateurs
  • Liked: 345
  • Likes Given: 220
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #55 on: 04/13/2012 05:05 PM »
C) All SRM segments will use the same propellant grain and geometry,

Not a good assumption.  Geometry is tailored to the desired trajectory.  STS flew PBAN propellant, but the more energetic HTPB is preferred for unmanned, aside from the other knobs that can be turned on solid fuel (coarse/fine, etc).
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27033
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 6927
  • Likes Given: 4887
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #56 on: 04/13/2012 05:22 PM »

That means business for smaller, cheaper launch vehicles. 

 - Ed Kyle

It also means cheaper payloads, since you no longer have all that extra plumbing and related costs.
Inert Xenon versus incredibly toxic hydrazine. Big win there, IMHO.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
  • Canada
  • Liked: 287
  • Likes Given: 452
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #57 on: 04/13/2012 09:06 PM »

That means business for smaller, cheaper launch vehicles. 

 - Ed Kyle

It also means cheaper payloads, since you no longer have all that extra plumbing and related costs.
Inert Xenon versus incredibly toxic hydrazine. Big win there, IMHO.

Isn't there a looming Xenon shortage due to increase usage and no increase in global production?

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
  • Canada
  • Liked: 287
  • Likes Given: 452
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #58 on: 04/13/2012 09:07 PM »
... so Kodiak Athena would have thinner competition than a theoretical East Coast Athena.

 - Ed Kyle

(cough)
What about the Avians from VAFB? IIRC their launch cost is cheaper than the Athena 3 with easier logistics.

Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27033
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 6927
  • Likes Given: 4887
Re: Athena News (Athena 3 Still Kicking)
« Reply #59 on: 04/13/2012 09:26 PM »

That means business for smaller, cheaper launch vehicles. 

 - Ed Kyle

It also means cheaper payloads, since you no longer have all that extra plumbing and related costs.
Inert Xenon versus incredibly toxic hydrazine. Big win there, IMHO.

Isn't there a looming Xenon shortage due to increase usage and no increase in global production?
Nope! :) Xenon is produced by fractional distillation of air. As long as there's air, we'll be able to get Xenon. (Argon is also a good fuel and is a lot cheaper, but doesn't make as much sense until you get to VERY high Isp and specific power levels.)

You are thinking of helium, which is still very cheap (considering). That's produced generally by separating it out from natural gas wells. The US has/had a strategic reserve of helium, which is now being privatized/sold-off (by Congressional demand). This suppression of the price of helium leads to pretty wasteful uses and also makes companies a lot less likely to extract the helium. I think we should stop auctioning off the strategic reserve at very least (if not start to fill it again) since this would cause private natural gas producers to be a lot more likely to separate it out, which would cause our existing helium supplies to last much longer. (Helium can be produced by fractional distillation of the air, but the yield from that is FAR too little to meet existing demand... and it would cost far more.)

And actually, helium is used for pressurization in traditional hypergolic spacecraft propulsion, so moving to Xenon electric propulsion would actually save helium.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Tags: