Author Topic: India Planning Mission to Venus  (Read 16247 times)

Offline sanman

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India Planning Mission to Venus
« on: 02/18/2012 11:55 PM »
ISRO has announced that it is studying a possible mission to the planet Venus:

http://www.internationalreporter.com/News-8251/india-planning-venus-mission.html

It would probably be an orbital probe that makes use of RISAT technology to pierce Venus' thick cloud cover.

I think it would be cool if one day ISRO could land a probe on the surface of Venus. To date, one of the Soviet Venera (13?) spacecraft was the only one able to successfully touch down and send back pictures of the surface of Venus.

(colorized by artist):


I would like to see images and recordings of lightning in the Venusian atmosphere.

Offline Hungry4info3

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #1 on: 02/19/2012 12:10 AM »
To date, one of the Soviet Venera (13?) spacecraft was the only one able to successfully touch down and send back pictures of the surface of Venus.

Venera 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14 all landed safely on Venus. Of these, Venera 9, 10, 13 and 14 returned images.

You posted the Venera 13 image. I'll post the Venera 9, 10 and 14 images.
« Last Edit: 02/19/2012 12:16 AM by Hungry4info3 »

Offline sanman

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #2 on: 02/19/2012 12:16 AM »
Cool, I stand corrected.  :)

Offline Art LeBrun

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #3 on: 02/19/2012 12:20 AM »
You really have to admire the Soviet dedication to Venus landing considering there was missing important data early on for spacecraft survival.
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Offline sanman

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Offline ChileVerde

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #5 on: 02/19/2012 02:15 AM »

I think it would be cool if one day ISRO could land a probe on the surface of Venus. To date, one of the Soviet Venera (13?) spacecraft was the only one able to successfully touch down and send back pictures of the surface of Venus.


[Various snippages performed above.]

Yeah. Venus, because it's so hellish in comparison to Mars, seems to have gotten little respect, but I think some more surface probes would be worthwhile to figure out what's there and how it got that way. As well as being quite technologically challenging, of course.

How and why, for example, did the flat plates seen on the ground in the Venera picture get to be flat? Probably not sediment, but what?
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline sanman

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #6 on: 02/19/2012 03:33 AM »
I dunno, ash chunks flattened down by the melting heat and the strong surface winds? Or maybe just lava channels carving out slabs?

The ISRO announcement says they'd primarily be looking at analyzing Venus' atmosphere. I'm not sure what stuff about Venus is well-known and what's least-known. Presumably, science missions should differentiate themselves by looking at stuff that hasn't been looked at umpteen times before.

Offline baldusi

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #7 on: 02/19/2012 10:54 AM »
As I understand it is great for aerocapture, but we lack the necessary atmospheric models. More studies would help.

Offline sanman

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #8 on: 02/20/2012 08:44 AM »
As I understand it is great for aerocapture, but we lack the necessary atmospheric models. More studies would help.

India's radar imaging satellite, RISAT-1, due to be launched next month, uses C-band for imaging (4.0-8.0Ghz), giving it all-weather capability. C-band would also be useful for penetrating the heavy cloud cover over Venus, to do a detailed mapping of the surface.

If aerocapture is relatively easy for Venus, then perhaps an orbiting probe could drop a tiny instrument package with heat-shield and parachute. India has already done a Space Recovery Experiment, SRE-1, where a heat-shielded capsule was de-orbited and recovered from the ocean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRE-1

All they'd have to do for Venus is to make a tinier stronger version of that, with some instruments onboard, and maybe using some kind of balloon airbag cushion or ballute. Aerocapture increases the odds of successful touchdown.

The lunar impactor released by Chandrayaan was suggested by President Abdul Kalam, and had an Indian flag painted on it. An ISRO veteran himself, Kalam's point quite reasonably was that if you're taking all the trouble to go to the Moon, then you might as well drop something onto the surface. Even though it obviously splattered across the landscape when it hit, Indian politicians got a lot of mileage from claiming that the Indian flag had been brought to the Moon.

I'm guessing that if ISRO were to present the idea of dropping something on Venus with a flag painted on it -- hell, paint it on the parachute, what difference does it make -- once again giving politicians the chance to boast about planting flags, then the mission would be assured of funding. Even if the chute and airbag failed and things splattered, politicians would still get a flag-bragging opportunity.

I'm just wondering what the size constraints would be for such a package.
« Last Edit: 02/20/2012 08:52 AM by sanman »

Offline sanman

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #9 on: 02/20/2012 09:04 PM »
Just out of curiosity, what should a Venus rover look like?

What kind of general shape and form-factor should it have, in order to successfully navigate the hostile surface conditions of Venus?

We all know it's hot, but other than volcanism the surface seems quite stagnant, so I assume there won't be any molten surface to contend with. And of course the pressure is huge. And I've read that the surface winds are slow but nevertheless have force, due to the dense atmosphere, and can blow stones and rocks along.

So I'm thinking that a rover should be low-slung and flat, like a slab, with wheels or treads on the sides. Maybe there could be some kind of small wind-turbine that could draw energy from the wind currents, to help power the rover?

What kind of instrumentation could be used to determine the firmness or composition of the ground?

Since the atmosphere is so dense, while having slow wind, could buoyancy be a mode of travel? What is the best way to travel around Venus? How low do the clouds go? How far from the ground can you be and still effectively make ground observations without visibility being obscured by fog, atmospheric effects, etc?
« Last Edit: 02/20/2012 09:05 PM by sanman »

Offline simonbp

Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #10 on: 03/02/2012 09:16 PM »
You hit on the key point with the last paragraph; any mission to the Venusian surface would be more a high-temperature submersible than a rover. Here's the most recent JPL design for such a mission:

http://www.planetaryprobe.eu/IPPW7/proceedings/IPPW7%20Proceedings/Presentations/Session4/pr450.pdf

The Indian mission would be more comparable to Venus Express (the only mission currently at Venus), which is also descended from a commercial satellite bus.

Offline ss1_3

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #11 on: 12/11/2014 05:08 PM »
BUMP!

This Hindi article suggests that a Venus mission might be in order.

- PRL scientist: Strategy for the Venus mission discussed during a seminar last month.
- Planning to go in parallel with other Mars & moon missions.
- Mission to focus on sulphuric acid origins and surface temperature studies.

Offline johnxx9

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #12 on: 12/11/2014 06:18 PM »
BUMP!

This Hindi article suggests that a Venus mission might be in order.

- PRL scientist: Strategy for the Venus mission discussed during a seminar last month.
- Planning to go in parallel with other Mars & moon missions.
- Mission to focus on sulphuric acid origins and surface temperature studies.

This mission might be similar to what the Europeans did with Mars Express and Venus Express. The Venus orbiter might be vry similar to MoM.

The previous reports of it being based on RiSat might be incorrect. The is thought to have cost a lot, much more than MoM. So it seems likely that this spacecraft will be a sibling of MoM.

Offline vyoma

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #13 on: 12/12/2014 03:58 AM »
So it seems likely that this spacecraft will be a sibling of MoM.

Since ISRO now has GSLV Mk2, hoping they would a bigger spacecraft (probably I-3K bus) with bigger/more scientific payloads.

Offline Ohsin

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #14 on: 05/20/2015 12:48 AM »
They are talking about this again..
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150520/technology-latest/article/after-mars-isro-plans-venus-odyssey

Quote
And, this mission to Venus could have a French connection as Prof Jacques Blamont, a renowned astrophysicists and a friend of the late Dr Vikram Sarabhai, who was conferred the Padma Shri this year, has offered to help Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) with gigantic balloons carrying several instruments but designed to pop in and out of the extremely hot atmosphere of the planet after being unfettered from the orbiter.

“It is possible to build and launch the spacecraft in about two-and-a-half years. Dr Adimurthy (who, incidentally, wrote the first feasibility report on the Mars Orbiter Mission) and a big team at Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre, Thiruvananthapuram) are working out all the details like the ideal launch window, the best orbit for the orbiter and the instruments to go onboard,” Prof U R Rao, former chairman of ISRO, and head of the space agency’s Advisory Committee for Space Sciences told Deccan Chronicle.
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #15 on: 05/20/2015 07:53 AM »
Quote

Quote from: johnxx9 on 12/11/2014 06:18 PM

    So it seems likely that this spacecraft will be a sibling of MoM.


Since ISRO now has GSLV Mk2, hoping they would a bigger spacecraft (probably I-3K bus) with bigger/more scientific payloads.


Vyoma : Which launch vehicle will launch this spacecraft ? GSLV MK2 is not yet operational. One more successful launch of GSLV MK2 with indian cryogenic engine is required to declare it operational and gradually it needs to be scaled up to maximum 2.5 ton GTO capability. I was expecting a GSLV MK2 launch in August this year. Can we expect a GSLV MK2 launch in August ? ISRO is resting on laurels on the workhorse PSLV. If GSLV MK2 doesn't become a stable and reliable launcher, ISRO has to remain content with PSLV to launch MOM type spacecraft which can't have a meaningful scientific payload.
 



 
 
« Last Edit: 09/28/2015 12:55 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline vyoma

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #16 on: 05/20/2015 04:03 PM »

Quote

Quote from: johnxx9 on 12/11/2014 06:18 PM

    So it seems likely that this spacecraft will be a sibling of MoM.


Since ISRO now has GSLV Mk2, hoping they would a bigger spacecraft (probably I-3K bus) with bigger/more scientific payloads.


Vyoma : Which launch vehicle will launch this spacecraft ? GSLV MK2 is not yet operational. One more successful launch of GSLV MK2 with indian cryogenic engine is required to declare it operational and gradually it needs to be scaled up to maximum 2.5 ton GTO capability. I was expecting a GSLV MK2 launch in August this year. Can we expect a GSLV MK2 launch in August ? ISRO is resting on laurels on the workhorse PSLV. If GSLV MK2 doesn't become a stable and reliable launcher, ISRO has to remain content with PSLV to launch MOM type spacecraft which can't have a meaningful scientific payload.
 
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Looks like GSLV Mk2 launch will happen July/August this year :)

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/isro-to-launch-satellite-for-strategic-applications-764727

Offline sanman

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Offline abhishek

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #18 on: 07/13/2015 02:56 PM »
ISRO Now Eyes Venus as its Next Big Destination

NEW DELHI:  After a hugely successful mission to Mars where India beat China in reaching the Red Planet's orbit, the Indian space agency ISRO is not sitting back on its laurels. It now seeks to foray more into the Solar System with missions being planned for exploring Venus, a revisit to Mars and trip to an asteroid.
In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Kiran Kumar, Chairman, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) says "We are looking at opportunities on what should be our next planetary mission, in this we are looking at opportunities whether it is a repeat Mars mission, or Venus mission or even an asteroid mission." 
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/isro-now-eyes-venus-as-its-next-big-destination-780991
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Offline Ohsin

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #19 on: 12/26/2015 08:57 PM »
Quote
ISRO will soon give wings to its other projects—the mission to Venus is likely to happen next year, India’s second lunar probe Chandrayaan II will land on moon in 2017, and its first solar mission Aditya L1 may be launched in 2019.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/magazine/A-S-Kiran-Kumar-The-Skymaster/2015/12/26/article3194302.ece

http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/EV.htm

Cosmic train schedule suggests end of 2016. Next window 2018.


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Edit:

Sounds like another technology demonstrator to me...seriously 12 months?
« Last Edit: 12/26/2015 10:34 PM by Ohsin »
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Offline Star One

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #20 on: 12/26/2015 10:54 PM »
Probably like the Mars project it has been in hand behind the scenes longer than realised?

Offline Ohsin

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #21 on: 12/28/2015 11:04 AM »
So far they were saying its either Venus or an Asteroid mission. Probably it means they will zero in on the mission specifics and decide to go with Venus next year...
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Offline vyoma

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #22 on: 08/10/2016 05:25 PM »
Hat tip: Antariksh at r/isro.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2016 04:18 AM by vyoma »

Offline sanman

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Offline ss1_3

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #24 on: 01/05/2017 03:12 AM »
Sorry to keep BUMP'ing up this thread. ;)

Nothing new, they just mentioned in the ISC plenary session that they are still considering feasibility of a Venus mission.

http://www.financialexpress.com/lifestyle/science/after-mars-isro-eyes-venus-and-jupiter/496762/

Quote
“We are looking at other planets that we can explore. So, two of them are Jupiter and Venus. The mission analysis is on what type of satellite we are supposed to build and what type of rocket we need.

“Studies are going on and it may take few years from now to have a concrete plan,” M Nageswara Rao, Associate Director, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) said at a plenary session on science technology at the Indian Science Congress here.


Now that the proposed Venus missions DAVINCI and VERITAS have not been shortlisted for the next NASA Discovery missions, it becomes ever important that new missions be planned by other space agencies. Both China & India have the capability to take up the lead here.

Offline vyoma

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #25 on: 02/12/2017 04:41 PM »
http://zeenews.india.com/space/after-record-setting-satellite-launch-isro-aims-for-venus-and-mars-may-partner-with-nasa_1976355.html

Quote
Finance Minister Arun Jaitley gave the department of space a 23% increase in its budget. Under the space sciences section, the budget mentions provisions “for Mars Orbiter Mission II and Mission to Venus”.

Quote
India’s maiden mission to Venus, the second planet of the solar system, is in all probability going to be a modest orbiter mission.

Watkins said a mission to Venus is very-very worthwhile as so little is understood about that planet and NASA would definitely be willing to partner in India’s maiden voyage to Venus.

Towards that, NASA and ISRO have already initiated talks this month on trying to jointly undertake studies on using electrical propulsion for powering this mission.

Offline sanman

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Offline vineethgk

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #27 on: 04/19/2017 06:35 PM »
Signs of movement in ISRO's Venus exploration programme!

Announcement of Opportunity (AO) for Space Based Experiments to Study Venus
Quote
In this context, proposals are solicited from interested scientists within India for novel space based experiments. This Announcement of Opportunity (AO) is addressed to all institutions in India. Those sending proposals may be currently involved in planetary exploration studies / the development of science instruments for space / willing to develop the experiments.  The Principal Investigator of the proposal should (i) provide necessary details of the instrument which can address the scientific problems and (ii) be capable of bringing together the instrument team and lead the team for developing a space qualified instrument.

The payload capability of the proposed satellite is likely to be 175 kg with 500W of power. However these values are to be tuned based on the final configuration. The proposed orbit is expected to be around 500 x 60,000 km around Venus.  This orbit is likely to be reduced gradually, over several months to a lower apoapsis.

With the success of MOM under their belt, they appear to be gunning for a proper science mission itself first time round. The advertised payload of 175kg might be based on a launch with GSLV Mk2. No mention of the mission timeline though.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2017 06:37 PM by vineethgk »

Offline vineethgk

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #28 on: 04/20/2017 05:17 PM »
After Mars, ISRO turns eye on Venus - Invites study ideas for new mission
Quote
It’s official. The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has invited scientists to suggest studies for a potential orbiter mission to Venus - somewhat similar to the one that landed in Mars in 2013.
Quote
"The Announcement of Opportunity [AO] is just the beginning. The studies must be finalised, a project report would have to be presented and approved. A formal mission may not happen before 2020," a senior ISRO official told The Hindu.

A mission must be approved by ISRO's Advisory Committee on Space Sciences, then the Space Commission and later by the government.

Offline sanman

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #29 on: 04/21/2017 07:41 AM »
Personally, I think that it would be worthwhile to have an additional extra mini-probe that would detach from the main orbiter spacecraft, to descend into the atmosphere of Venus. Various forum people have commented that aerocapture should be especially doable for Venus, given its conveniently thicker atmosphere relative to its gravitation. A detachable mini-probe that descends into Venus' atmosphere would be sort of counterpart or successor to the Moon Impact Probe on the Chandrayaan-1 mission.

Indian politicians and media alike were happy to crow that India had "put its flag on the Moon", courtesy of Chandrayaan-1's MIP which had been proposed by the late President Dr Abdul Kalam. Of course that was only true in the barest possible technical sense, given that the MIP instantly disintegrated on contact with the lunar landscape, along with any flag painted on its side.

But a carefully designed Venus atmospheric descent probe of suitably small size could perhaps make it down the surface intact, and perhaps survive just long enough to send up a color picture of what things look like on the surface of Venus. And it could have a little Indian flag painted/engraved on the side, for Indians to crow about.

My guess is that the main spacecraft is likely to be a small orbiter borrowing some of its technology from RISAT-1, India's Radar Imaging Satellite. However, I don't see why a maiden Venus mission has to purely be restricted to an orbiter mission, when GSLV-Mk2/Mk3 allow significantly more margin for the payload mass envelope of the spacecraft than was previously possible, and given the time margin available. As Abdul Kalam himself said when proposing MIP - if you're going to take the trouble to go all that way, then you might as well go to the surface too.

There should be an atmospheric descent probe - the public will love it, the media and politicians will love it - and yes, even the scientific community might get something out of it as well.

Offline hop

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #30 on: 04/22/2017 07:33 AM »
But a carefully designed Venus atmospheric descent probe of suitably small size could perhaps make it down the surface intact, and perhaps survive just long enough to send up a color picture of what things look like on the surface of Venus.
Anything that has any chance of surviving to the surface of Venus isn't going to be a cheap little add-on. The "small" Pioneer Venus probes were ~90 kg each.

Even if you drop the requirement of surviving to the surface, the minimum requirements of a successful entry probe are far beyond something like MIP.


Offline sanman

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #31 on: 04/22/2017 11:08 AM »
Anything that has any chance of surviving to the surface of Venus isn't going to be a cheap little add-on. The "small" Pioneer Venus probes were ~90 kg each.

Even if you drop the requirement of surviving to the surface, the minimum requirements of a successful entry probe are far beyond something like MIP.

Gee, I was imagining some compact high-strength canister suspended beneath a ballute.
But I guess the power to cool electronics for long enough is the main problem.
How much time would a descent to the surface approximately take, anyway?

Well, maybe instead of going all the way down, you could have something that floats down to a decent altitude of tolerable temperature and pressure, to study the atmosphere. Maybe it could even be solar-powered. Various people have commented about how "Earth-like" the atmosphere of Venus is at ~50km up, so it might be an interesting environment to study - maybe even send pictures back from. I wonder what a sunrise would look like from Venus at that altitude?

The mass envelope they gave for the spacecraft was ~175kg, but I'm assuming that was with GSLV-Mk2's lift capability. I wonder what kind of mass envelope would be possible with GSLV-Mk3?
« Last Edit: 04/22/2017 11:14 AM by sanman »

Offline hop

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #32 on: 04/22/2017 09:33 PM »
Gee, I was imagining some compact high-strength canister suspended beneath a ballute.
The Pioneer Venus small probes didn't use a parachute at all.
Quote
How much time would a descent to the surface approximately take, anyway?
Roughly an hour from entry to impact for Pioneer Venus. A good overview can be found in http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2004ESASP.544...37B

Note the small probes had ~5 kg of payload, and their data return was < 100 bits per second.  Modern electronics and batteries might let you do it in a slightly smaller package, but it wouldn't fundamentally change the picture.

Another important thing to realize is that the presence of a probe has significant impacts on the overall mission design. The probe needs to be delivered on an entry trajectory, and if you want much data, the orbiter also needs to carry relay equipment and be in a position to relay.

This is all a bit OT since there is no indication ISRO is considering anything beyond an orbiter. The main point is that you can do something like MIP with ~cubesat effort, but the minimum requirements for an atmospheric entry probe are far higher.
« Last Edit: 04/23/2017 12:05 AM by hop »

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #33 on: 04/22/2017 11:41 PM »
Personally, I think that it would be worthwhile to have an additional extra mini-probe that would detach from the main orbiter spacecraft, to descend into the atmosphere of Venus. Various forum people have commented that aerocapture should be especially doable for Venus, given its conveniently thicker atmosphere relative to its gravitation. A detachable mini-probe that descends into Venus' atmosphere would be sort of counterpart or successor to the Moon Impact Probe on the Chandrayaan-1 mission.

However, I don't see why a maiden Venus mission has to purely be restricted to an orbiter mission, when GSLV-Mk2/Mk3 allow significantly more margin for the payload mass envelope of the spacecraft than was previously possible, and given the time margin available.

With due respect to PSLV's streak of unsullied success, for any interplanetary mission, PSLV should NOT be used anymore, because it would not be able to carry more payload. Henceforth, ISRO should consider using GSLV MK-II which is shaping up as a next workhorse for ISRO after three consecutive successful launches with indigenous cryogenic engine. Ultimately LVM3 that would have capability to launch heavier payload for interplanetary mission, should be the ultimate choice.

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Offline vyoma

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #34 on: 04/25/2017 05:53 AM »
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/venus-mission-isro-invites-proposals-for-space-experiments/articleshow/58336243.cms

Quote
According to Isro, the payload capability of the Venus-bound satellite is expected to be 175 kg with 500W of power. The orbit will be 500 X 60,000km around Venus, which will gradually reduce over several months.

The focus of the mission will be atmospheric and surface studies, Sun-Venus interaction, biology experiments and technology demonstration. An Isro official told TOI that though it is an approved mission, the date of the launch is yet to be firmed up. The Indian mission to Venus+ has been listed as part of the department of space's demand for grants.

Offline sanman

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Re: India Planning Mission to Venus
« Reply #35 on: 04/25/2017 02:44 PM »
The orbit will be 500 X 60,000km around Venus, which will gradually reduce over several months.

Just regarding this - is there any such thing as "reverse Oberth maneuver"? I realize Oberth Effect is exploited when raising orbits, but is it also common to do it for shrinking orbits, like when sending spacecraft to other planets, etc?

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