Author Topic: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements  (Read 65078 times)

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #20 on: 08/20/2011 11:40 PM »
Looks like the pilot clique of the Astronaut office is deciding to throw some last grenades to the CCDEV participants, before they head out the door.

Hopefully these are not final requirements.

Offline Prober

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #21 on: 08/21/2011 12:37 AM »
Looks like the pilot clique of the Astronaut office is deciding to throw some last grenades to the CCDEV participants, before they head out the door.

Hopefully these are not final requirements.


This is the way NASA operates on some programs.  Like changes along the way are not new.   Why are some programs way over in cost over runs?
 
This should be no prob for this program as its so early into it.
 
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Offline ChefPat

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #22 on: 08/21/2011 03:04 AM »

This should be no prob for this program as its so early into it.
.
Bologna. Space-X has 8 Dragons in various states of completion, & claim they can kick out another one every 6 to 8 weeks. This means they've finalized the design.
They won't be able to change it without great cost. A big overrun in other words.
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Online hop

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #23 on: 08/21/2011 03:34 AM »

This should be no prob for this program as its so early into it.
Bologna. Space-X has 8 Dragons in various states of completion, & claim they can kick out another one every 6 to 8 weeks. This means they've finalized the design.
Even if that is correct, it's cargo Dragon. Crew Dragon cannot be anywhere close to finalized yet.

Offline ChefPat

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #24 on: 08/21/2011 04:09 AM »
Even if that is correct, it's cargo Dragon. Crew Dragon cannot be anywhere close to finalized yet.
Again, Bologna!!! (or Mortadella if you prefer!!!)
Cargo & Crew versions will be the same damned ship. The differences will be on the inside, not the outside. Including the outer mold line.
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #25 on: 08/21/2011 04:33 AM »
ChefPat, you are wrong. The crew Dragons will have many differences, even if the heat shield, pressure vessel, and minor systems are mostly the same.

The addition of the Super Draco's for LAS/landing is one example, which cause the propellant and thrusters to move, and will even change the outer moldline slightly ( http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/spacex-dragon.jpg ) . And to switch a docking collar instead of a berthing one, most of the top of the pressure vessel will be different.

The Dragon design is far from finalized. Even the Cargo Dragon's are evolving. (umbilicals moved, windows removed, and more) And they will probably keep evolving. A frozen design is a relatively foreign concept to SpaceX at this stage.

Perhaps the Cargo Dragon will have some of the new features carried over eventually, to streamline production. But there will still be differences.
« Last Edit: 08/21/2011 04:35 AM by Lars_J »

Online docmordrid

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #26 on: 08/21/2011 05:54 AM »
The spec needs to be modified to allow for stereoscopic remote cameras and a stereo video headset. Stereoscopic remote vision is good and reliable enough now to do robotic telesurgery from across the freakin' planet complete with force-feedback, so these Luddite fly-boys need to catch up.
« Last Edit: 08/21/2011 06:11 AM by docmordrid »
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #27 on: 08/21/2011 06:16 AM »
SpaceX isn't the only one that is likely quite far in finalizing their initial crewed vehicle design. The others, especially SNC and Boeing, must be far enough along that this is going to increase their costs.

And this is exactly why changing the contracting structure to give NASA more ability to change requirements halfway is a bad idea, IMO.
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Offline TimL

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #28 on: 08/21/2011 11:29 AM »
I'm reminded of the scene from "The Right Stuff" when Ed Harris is arguing with the german designers over the Mercury capsule. Ol' Guss, "Where's the window?"
:)
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Offline apace

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #29 on: 08/21/2011 11:49 AM »
I'm reminded of the scene from "The Right Stuff" when Ed Harris is arguing with the german designers over the Mercury capsule. Ol' Guss, "Where's the window?"
:)

Where you flight you need no windows ;-)

Offline ChefPat

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #30 on: 08/21/2011 12:46 PM »
ChefPat, you are wrong. The crew Dragons will have many differences, even if the heat shield, pressure vessel, and minor systems are mostly the same.

The addition of the Super Draco's for LAS/landing is one example, which cause the propellant and thrusters to move, and will even change the outer moldline slightly ( http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/spacex-dragon.jpg ) . And to switch a docking collar instead of a berthing one, most of the top of the pressure vessel will be different.

The Dragon design is far from finalized. Even the Cargo Dragon's are evolving. (umbilicals moved, windows removed, and more) And they will probably keep evolving. A frozen design is a relatively foreign concept to SpaceX at this stage.

Perhaps the Cargo Dragon will have some of the new features carried over eventually, to streamline production. But there will still be differences.
I'll concede the outer mold line as that can be & almost certainly will be changed with propulsive landing. But, that was probably already factored in. After all, the frame for a Ford Falcon & a Mustang were the same for years too. ;)
The pressure vessel though, is not a minor system & can't just be changed from it's current shape so a pilot can fly by looking out the window. It's not necessary either. The system they have planned is bold, but it eliminates the need to look out the damned window.
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Offline apace

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #31 on: 08/21/2011 01:03 PM »
I'm sure SpaceX has a solution for this and the other requirements in this documents (was nice to read it, for example about water testing and quality ;-)

This autumn we should have the CCDEV2 milestone with the crewed Dragon mockup, there we should see the solution for this problem.

Offline Jim

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #32 on: 08/21/2011 01:37 PM »
SpaceX isn't the only one that is likely quite far in finalizing their initial crewed vehicle design. The others, especially SNC and Boeing, must be far enough along that this is going to increase their costs.

And this is exactly why changing the contracting structure to give NASA more ability to change requirements halfway is a bad idea, IMO.

Then won't get a contract from NASA. 

NASA isn't changing requirements halfway.  NASA hasn't even started the procurement for CCP.

Offline arnezami

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #33 on: 08/21/2011 01:39 PM »
There is no problem. Look at the rationale (especially the second one):

The spacecraft shall have windows excluding hatch windows for piloting tasks for crew use during all flight phases.
Quote
Rationale:  Because of the criticality of piloting tasks to the success of the mission and safety of the crew during all mission phases, windows must be a part of the spacecraft design.  The human-centered design process is to be used when designing windows to support expected crew piloting tasks.
The windows shall provide the unobstructed fields-of-view necessary to support crew-piloting tasks during all flight phases.
Quote
Rationale:  Fixed equipment, such as window instrumentation, hardware, or a condensation prevention system, that would obscure the field-of- view from the normal crew viewing position may interfere with piloting, observation, and photography tasks.  Examples of piloting hardware that are exempted from this requirement are Headís Up Displays (HUD) or other devices used for piloting tasks.  For detailed design considerations for inboard and outboard window view obscuration exclusion zones, consult Section 8.6.3.3 and 8.6.3.4 in JSC/SP-2010-3407 Human Integration Design Handbook (HIDH).

The "unobstructed fields-of-view" refers to the crew being able to see the window, not the station they are docking with.

Regards

Offline apace

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #34 on: 08/21/2011 02:20 PM »
There is no problem. Look at the rationale (especially the second one):

There's a problem, because current crewed Dragon drawings show no windows in front of the pilots, and that's a requirement.

Offline Prober

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #35 on: 08/21/2011 05:58 PM »

This should be no prob for this program as its so early into it.
.
Bologna. Space-X has 8 Dragons in various states of completion, & claim they can kick out another one every 6 to 8 weeks. This means they've finalized the design.
They won't be able to change it without great cost. A big overrun in other words.

Chop suey.   Keep in mind Dragon is in a "TEST" mode.  There is no "final design" yet.

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Offline arnezami

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #36 on: 08/21/2011 06:45 PM »
There's a problem, because current crewed Dragon drawings show no windows in front of the pilots, and that's a requirement.

What do you mean with "in front of"? Since that term is not in the requirements.

It talks about "unobstructed fields-of-view" towards a window: you have to be able to see through the window. And there are exemptions (basicly all stuff that is needed by Asrtonauts for flying). This doesn't seem like a hard to solve problem. But maybe it is for some.

Anyway. The idea that Dreamchaser does not fullfil this requirement, because it can't see the station, is not correct. That's what I wanted to point out.

Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #37 on: 08/21/2011 08:08 PM »
There is no problem.

Except that they might end up pushing an unnecessary requirement on the contractors.

Quote
Look at the rationale (especially the second one):

Erioladastra's explanation is more believable. The things you cited as rationale boil down to:

1 - there must be a window for piloting (which is just an assertion, not a justification).

2 - the pilots have to be able to see through this window (obviously, otherwise it would be completely useless, as opposed to mostly useless).

Quote
This doesn't seem like a hard to solve problem. But maybe it is for some.

It certainly might turn out to be a hard, time consuming and costly problem to solve, one which has no good reason for existing in the first place on top of that.
« Last Edit: 08/21/2011 08:09 PM by Cog_in_the_machine »
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Offline Prober

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #38 on: 08/21/2011 08:19 PM »
It's not a problem unless you make it one.

Get creative!
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Offline joek

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Re: Commercial Crew Program (CCP-CTS-CCT) Requirements
« Reply #39 on: 08/21/2011 10:25 PM »
The "unobstructed fields-of-view" refers to the crew being able to see the window, not the station they are docking with.

See also 4.3.10.15 Test and Verification, Windows:
Quote
Window fields-of-view for expected crew piloting tasks shall be verified by analysis and test.  The analysis shall identify activities/tasks requiring visual information from outside of the spacecraft and include 3-D virtual simulations of operational scenarios depicting the interior and exterior of the vehicle.  The verification shall be considered successful when the analysis shows that the windows provide the unobstructed fields-of-view necessary to support expected crew piloting tasks and the test shows that these tasks can be accomplished in the 3-D virtual simulation by trained crew personnel wearing any equipment required for flight.

I expect docking and undocking are among those "crew piloting tasks" that require "visual information from outside the spacecraft".  However, as others have suggested, that doesn't necessarily mean those tasks must be accomplished with the pilot looking through a window while sitting in their normal pilot crew seat.

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