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Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles => Boeing Starliner (CST-100) Section => Topic started by: Chris Bergin on 01/06/2016 01:17 PM

Title: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/06/2016 01:17 PM
New Update and Discussion Thread for Boeing's CST-100.

Thraed 1:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22125.0

Thread 2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32438.0

News articles:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/cst-100/

L2 Master Thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29664.0

--

Please note we now have the Starliner CST-100 Specific Forum Section, so this remains an update and discussion thread as we will be looking to create specific threads for specific updates to fill out the section on what is a relatively media shy vehicle.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/12/2016 01:23 PM
NASA Astronauts Get Advance Look at CST-100 Starliner Trainers

Systems will prepare crews for Boeing’s first-ever commercial spaceflights to International Space Station
 

ST. LOUIS, Jan. 7, 2016 – Two of the four NASA astronauts training to fly Boeing’s [NYSE: BA] CST-100 Starliner spacecraft recently tried some of the systems that will prepare them for flights to the International Space Station.

During a visit to Boeing, astronauts Eric Boe and Bob Behnken focused on systems used for learning to manipulate switches and display panels. Flight controllers were also able to experience devices they will use to train for flight tests and missions.

“We have been learning about the spacecraft displays through slideshows. It’s great to finally see what we are actually going to train on,” Boe said. ”The trainers look great, and this visit gives us an opportunity to meet with the Boeing engineers. We appreciate them allowing us to give input on these trainers so the devices are ready when they arrive at Johnson Space Center.”

Behnken added that the training equipment is comprehensive.

“Historically, some trainers were just a simple component that might have a very specific task,” he said. “This one has a lot of capability with multiple tasks coming together so it can execute more complicated training scenarios.”

Two of the trainers are to be delivered to NASA in the autumn of 2016. Boeing is also building an immersive, high-fidelity training system that’s to be delivered in early 2017 to Houston’s Johnson Space Center.

The CST-100 Starliner’s first crew flight test to the space station is expected in 2017 and will be Boeing’s first commercial flight transporting humans to that destination. More information about the CST-100 can be found at www.Boeing.com/cst100.

----------

NASA astronauts Eric Boe (left) and Bob Behnken inspect the controls of Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Crew Part Task Trainer as part of an early look at one of the systems that will prepare them for flight tests and missions.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 01/19/2016 01:41 AM
http://spaceflightnow.com/2016/01/19/bridging-the-past-and-future-on-the-shoulders-of-the-atlas-rocket/

Nice piece with a few details about launch ops and flight test plans.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AnalogMan on 02/09/2016 09:53 PM
Administrator Bolden Sees Starliner Before Testing
February 9, 2016 - Steven Siceloff

NASA Administrator Charles Bolden took a close look today at the airbag system for Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner at NASA’s Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, before a contingency water landing test with a full-size spacecraft mock-up.

Although it’s designed to land on land, Boeing is testing the Starliner at Langley’s Hydro Impact Basin to evaluate its tendencies in case it has to land in the water in the event of, for example, an unlikely launch or ascent emergency that calls for the spacecraft to separate from its rocket and parachute itself and the astronauts inside to safety. Starliner is being developed in partnership with NASA to carry up to four astronauts at a time to the International Space Station. An additional crew member will allow science time on the orbiting laboratory to double for NASA’s Journey to Mars and research that will benefit everyone on Earth.

Bolden visited Langley to deliver his annual “State of NASA” address during which he detailed aspects of the agency’s budget request.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/02/09/administrator-bolden-sees-starliner-before-testing/ (https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/02/09/administrator-bolden-sees-starliner-before-testing/)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The man in the can on 02/10/2016 10:26 PM
It remember me of this test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAbLlcpC4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAbLlcpC4o)
(This video was publish in April 2015)

I don't know if the airbag's design changed in between.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 02/12/2016 11:55 AM
This artist’s concept shows Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner. In partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, the Starliner is being developed to carry astronauts to and from the International Space Station. Credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 02/16/2016 02:22 AM
Quote from: Chris Ferguson
#Boeing #CST100 #Starliner pad abort test site in White Sands, NM; the views are breathtaking and chilies are great!
https://twitter.com/Astro_Ferg/status/699373860035006464
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: psloss on 02/17/2016 04:52 PM
http://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/commercial-crew-partner-boeing-tests-starliner-spacecraft
Quote
Engineers from NASA’s Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, and Boeing dropped a full-scale test article of the company’s CST-100 Starliner into Langley’s 20-foot-deep Hydro Impact Basin.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Thorny on 02/17/2016 05:12 PM
This artist’s concept shows Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner. In partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, the Starliner is being developed to carry astronauts to and from the International Space Station. Credit: Boeing

What's the purpose of the perforated ring around the SM?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ethan829 on 02/17/2016 06:27 PM
This artist’s concept shows Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner. In partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, the Starliner is being developed to carry astronauts to and from the International Space Station. Credit: Boeing

What's the purpose of the perforated ring around the SM?


Could it be for aerodynamic stability during an abort, like Crew Dragon's fins?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The man in the can on 02/19/2016 09:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sk4sYFHhjA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sk4sYFHhjA)

Quote
Published on Feb 19, 2016

Engineers from NASA’s Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va., and Boeing dropped a full-scale test article of the company’s CST-100 Starliner into Langley’s 20-foot-deep Hydro Impact Basin at the Landing and Impact Research Facility. Although the spacecraft is designed to land on land, Boeing is testing the Starliner’s systems in water to ensure astronaut safety in the unlikely event of an emergency. This test happened Feb. 9, 2016.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 02/19/2016 09:22 PM
This artist’s concept shows Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner. In partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, the Starliner is being developed to carry astronauts to and from the International Space Station. Credit: Boeing

What's the purpose of the perforated ring around the SM?

Apparently that ring is for stability on ascent, though there's not much detail about that.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081471-boeing-cst-100-spacecraft-updates/?page=2
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clongton on 02/20/2016 01:23 AM
It seems to float a little deep.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jtrame on 02/22/2016 05:47 PM
Saw the ILC Dover on the side of the airbags so I looked at their website.  Turns out they also made the landing bags for Pathfinder, Opportunity, and Spirit. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lampyridae on 03/02/2016 01:38 PM
This artist’s concept shows Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner. In partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, the Starliner is being developed to carry astronauts to and from the International Space Station. Credit: Boeing

What's the purpose of the perforated ring around the SM?

Apparently that ring is for stability on ascent, though there's not much detail about that.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081471-boeing-cst-100-spacecraft-updates/?page=2

That would be my guess. To my uneducated eye, the attitude jet pods / service module connector thingy look like they will create vortices on the way up - maybe that's the issue.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 03/03/2016 04:12 AM
According to schedule posted at

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/705107057251233792

OFT (orbital flight test) and CFT (crewed flight test) have been delayed by one month to June 2017 and October 2017, respectively.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Patchouli on 03/03/2016 05:46 PM


Apparently that ring is for stability on ascent, though there's not much detail about that.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081471-boeing-cst-100-spacecraft-updates/?page=2

It probably also helps assure a clean separation and prevents recontact by increasing drag on the SM.


Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 03/03/2016 08:49 PM


Apparently that ring is for stability on ascent, though there's not much detail about that.

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081471-boeing-cst-100-spacecraft-updates/?page=2 (http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081471-boeing-cst-100-spacecraft-updates/?page=2)

It probably also helps assure a clean separation and prevents recontact by increasing drag on the SM.



Given that nominal separation of the CM and SM will take place before entry interface, and thus pretty much outside the discernible atmosphere (read: will happen in a near perfect vacuum), I very much doubt the ring will have any effect on the separation event.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: HarryM on 03/03/2016 09:06 PM
In case of an abort though, you'd want clean separation of the SM.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 03/04/2016 06:31 AM
In case of an abort though, you'd want clean separation of the SM.
Yessir, but you don't need the ring for that. The ring is mainly there for keeping the 'stack' aerodynamically stable during the abort itself. It's function is similar to that of the 'fins' on the Dragon 2 trunk.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AncientU on 03/19/2016 02:08 PM
Couple interesting clips from the VP of Engineering (now former VP) at ULA concerning flying crew:

Quote
we’re flying Boeing’s CST-100, it's called the Starliner, we’re going to put six astronauts on top of an Atlas rocket, so 2017, we’ll fly it unmanned, in 2018, we’ll fly it as a manned flight.

Isn't this flight advertised as 2017?

Quote
We’re working on getting it certified, and so right now, with Boeing, per the contract, we’re going through the human spaceflight organisation and looking at all the single point failures, all the redundancy, how things work, modifying the launch rockets primarily to meet their needs. It’s also interesting because the Boeing design doesn’t have an escape tower, it basically has four thrusters on the bottom of their capsule or the service module that will eject them off if there’s a bad day. And so there’s different things that the backpressure will tear apart, the backpressure of those thrusters if you have the wrong structural load will cause it to impinge on the capsule at very high altitudes, damages the heat shield, that will cause it to have a problem on reentry,

Quote
Look, an achilles heel of the Atlas system right now is the Centaur upper stage.

Assume that this is the Centaur stage failing and damaging the heat shield...
Is this public knowledge? (Is now.)

Maybe they should do that in-flight abort demo (that analysis supposedly eliminated).

For transcript:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39180.msg1504420#msg1504420

Note: Moved comment from another thread.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 03/19/2016 03:29 PM
If you're at an altitude where upperstage debris impingement is an issue... why would you need the full abort motors? Wouldn't OMAC thrusters + thrust termination be sufficient?

edit: If I understand correctly, this is a high altitude issue that wouldn't be visible in a max-Q abort test. Would need to do a high altitude abort test.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 03/28/2016 06:42 PM
Crew Access Arm Water Deluge Test for Boeing/ULA

Published on Mar 28, 2016
Engineers and technicians gathered at dusk recently at a construction site near Kennedy Space Center in Florida to test systems that will support Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpJDskL7Sx0
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 03/31/2016 03:44 PM
Jeff Foust has tweeted a new Commercial Crew milestone chart presented by Bill Gerstenmaier, current as of March 2016.  (Previous chart was from November 30, 2015.)

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/715552131323994115
Quote
Gerst: commercial crew program doing pretty good overall, lots of challenges. Upcoming milestones:

Updated dates for the uncrewed and crewed Starliner test flights: which are now in June and October 2017 respectively.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rayleighscatter on 03/31/2016 09:10 PM
Jan 2017 shows the Boeing launch abort test. Where is that being held?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 03/31/2016 09:22 PM
Jan 2017 shows the Boeing launch abort test. Where is that being held?

White Sands, NM. See this post:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39244.msg1491931#msg1491931
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 04/19/2016 01:08 AM
ULA's Role in the Commercial Crew Program

Published on Apr 18, 2016
ULA is pleased to have been selected by The Boeing Company
to provide the launch service for the Crew Space Transportation
(CST)-100 Starliner spacecraft to the International Space Station in 2017. The flight-proven Atlas V offers the most reliable
and safest launch service capability for crewed missions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qzM1aXnf64
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 04/20/2016 03:16 AM
This isn't news but they mentioned that the CST-100 would be using the Atlas V 422. Initially, it was supposed to be the 412. So this is another confirmation that it will indeed be the 422 variation.

Edit: 422 (not 522) see post below.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 04/20/2016 06:58 AM
This isn't news but they mentioned that the CST-100 would be using the Atlas V 522. Initially, it was supposed to be the 512. So this is another confirmation that it will indeed be the 522 variation.

At 1:27 they say an it is a 400 series without a fairing, and call it specifically a *422*. (not 522)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 04/20/2016 06:31 PM
This isn't news but they mentioned that the CST-100 would be using the Atlas V 522. Initially, it was supposed to be the 512. So this is another confirmation that it will indeed be the 522 variation.

At 1:27 they say an it is a 400 series without a fairing, and call it specifically a *422*. (not 522)

Yes, I actually knew that. But I wrote the wrong number for some reason. Edited my post above accordingly.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 04/27/2016 12:09 AM
Simulators Offer Astronauts Glimpse of Future Flight

NASAKennedy

Published on Apr 26, 2016

NASA Commercial Crew astronauts Eric Boe and Suni Williams practiced mission operations for Boeing's CST-100 Starliner using a part-task trainer designed to mimic the controls and behavior of the spacecraft. They are part of a suite of cloud-based and hands-on trainers that Boeing has built to prepare astronauts and mission controllers. The trainers will be shipped to NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston this year so astronauts can use them daily to practice numerous situations from normal operations to unlikely emergencies. The Starliner is one of two spacecraft in development in partnership with NASA's Commercial Crew Program that will enable astronauts to fly to the International Space Station on a new generation of spacecraft made in America and launching from Florida's Space Coast. Working at Boeing's St. Louis facility, Boe and astronaut Suni Williams ran through numerous mission phases to assess the simulators.

YoueTube Video Location: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=uIsn-EGs1p4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIsn-EGs1p4
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: collectSPACE on 04/27/2016 12:09 PM
Starliner simulators: Astronauts 'fly' Boeing spacecraft trainers
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-042716a-boeing-cst100-starliner-simulators.html

With the flick of a few virtual switches and the use of a control stick, two NASA astronauts undocked Boeing's new commercial spacecraft from the International Space Station on Tuesday (April 26) – until thunderstorms over St. Louis cut the simulation short.

The (real-life) weather aside, astronauts Eric Boe and Suni Williams said their simulated spaceflight experience was a success as they concluded the acceptance evaluations for the two CST-100 Starliner Crew Part Task Trainers (CPTT) at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

"Although [the thunderstorm] was making a lot of noise, we completed what we expected to do," stated Boe, who with Williams and astronauts Doug Hurley and Robert Behnken comprise NASA's first 'cadre' of commercial crew trainees. "It was a good day."
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 04/27/2016 11:35 PM
another video:

NASA Astronauts Get a Close Look at Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Trainers

Boeing

Published on Apr 27, 2016
NASA Commercial Crew program astronauts worked with the CST-100 Starliner Crew Part-Task Trainers in St. Louis to get a feel for the trainers before delivery to the Johnson Space Center in Houston.

YouTube Video Location:  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dMFrU6XefI0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMFrU6XefI0
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 05/11/2016 10:09 PM
http://www.boeing.com/features/2016/05/cst100-domes-05-16.page

CST-100 Starliner Test Article domes mated into full capsule for first time at Kennedy Space Center

Quote
In a multi-phase operation, that involved minute movement and precise placement, the pieces of the first CST-100 Starliner test article became a capsule. The test article will help verify the manufacturing method, the materials, and the parts being created by Boeing and the project’s suppliers and help study the design of the Starliner.

Short video at the link.

edit: NASA coverage, w/ pictures: http://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/05/11/starliner-test-article-joined-to-complete-first-hull/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 05/12/2016 04:56 AM
First crewed Starliner flight delayed to 2018;

problems with vehicle weight and Atlas V acoustics.

Ars link.... (http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/05/boeings-first-flight-slips-its-now-up-to-spacex-to-wean-nasa-off-russia/)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/12/2016 02:11 PM
First crewed Starliner flight delayed to 2018;

problems with vehicle weight and Atlas V acoustics.

Ars link.... (http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/05/boeings-first-flight-slips-its-now-up-to-spacex-to-wean-nasa-off-russia/)
Maybe they should just launch on Falcon 9. ;)

I put a smiley on there, but it should solve the weight problems without needing all those extra solids.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 05/12/2016 03:41 PM
It is built to be able to fly on Falcon, but actually doing that defeats one of the major goals of the program: having better assurance of having a flying vehicle at all times by diversifying assets, not being vulnerable to a grounding on one launcher for instance.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: baldusi on 05/12/2016 04:05 PM
I wonder if Vulcan, since it will lack solids, will present a more benign environment. It would be funny if NASA would want to change to the newer launch vehicle (after the necessary trial period).
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/12/2016 04:19 PM
It is built to be able to fly on Falcon, but actually doing that defeats one of the major goals of the program: having better assurance of having a flying vehicle at all times by diversifying assets, not being vulnerable to a grounding on one launcher for instance.

Actually, it isn't. CST-100 was originally "launcher agnostic" but that is no longer the case. Boeing selected the Atlas V to launch the CST-100 back in 2011, and has designed it for that rocket since then.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/human-spaceflight-announcement--united.aspx

It would need, at the very least, an adapter section to fit on the Falcon 9 and be connected to its electronics.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rcoppola on 05/12/2016 04:19 PM
From the original report on Geek Wire: http://www.geekwire.com/2016/boeing-starliner-schedule-astronauts-slips-2018/

They listed another item, "In addition, NASA software updates have added more work for developers."

Software updated to what, for what? Human rating Atlas and the integration of the two vehicles WRT abort? Human Interface designs/control? Is this specific to Boeing or a Program wide request?

Mass and Acoustics? Isn't it a bit late to be hitting against these requirements? So it seems the un-crewed test flight will be pushed to the end of the year where the crewed test flight was supposed to be.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/12/2016 04:21 PM
I wonder if Vulcan, since it will lack solids, will present a more benign environment. It would be funny if NASA would want to change to the newer launch vehicle (after the necessary trial period).

The Vulcan will be able to be fitted with up to six SRBs.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/products_vulcan.aspx
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/12/2016 04:23 PM
Weight problems eh? :o Now where have we seen this before?? ???
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rcoppola on 05/12/2016 04:26 PM
Weight problems eh? :o Now where have we seen this before?? ???
Yeh, I wasn't going there but Weight and Acoustics = Ares/Orion.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: PahTo on 05/12/2016 04:47 PM
I wonder if Vulcan, since it will lack solids, will present a more benign environment. It would be funny if NASA would want to change to the newer launch vehicle (after the necessary trial period).

The Vulcan will be able to be fitted with up to six SRBs.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/products_vulcan.aspx

Not to speak for baldusi, but I suspect he refers to the expectation the Vulcan variant capable of lofting the CST-100 would not have (need for) SRMs.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 05/12/2016 10:01 PM
It is built to be able to fly on Falcon, but actually doing that defeats one of the major goals of the program: having better assurance of having a flying vehicle at all times by diversifying assets, not being vulnerable to a grounding on one launcher for instance.

Actually, it isn't. CST-100 was originally "launcher agnostic" but that is no longer the case. Boeing selected the Atlas V to launch the CST-100 back in 2011, and has designed it for that rocket since then.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/human-spaceflight-announcement--united.aspx

It would need, at the very least, an adapter section to fit on the Falcon 9 and be connected to its electronics.

It was designed to be adapted to delta, atlas or falcon. Key word is adapter. Yes, it currently relies on a launcher-specific adapter. To launch on another booster would indeed require a new adapter, as well as interface to the relevant emergency detection system of the booster. That's not an instant switchover, clearly, but that was never intended, nor did i state that as an option.  Boeing has said repeatedly that Atlas V is its "test vehicle" booster, and has reserved the ability to swap out a booster, as it presumably will when Vulcan arrives. I would guess it may well need a new adapter to whatever launcher, if any, replaces AtlasV, and eventually as the follow-on to Centaur rolls out.

Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erioladastra on 05/13/2016 12:31 AM
From the original report on Geek Wire: http://www.geekwire.com/2016/boeing-starliner-schedule-astronauts-slips-2018/

They listed another item, "In addition, NASA software updates have added more work for developers."

Software updated to what, for what? Human rating Atlas and the integration of the two vehicles WRT abort? Human Interface designs/control? Is this specific to Boeing or a Program wide request?

Mass and Acoustics? Isn't it a bit late to be hitting against these requirements? So it seems the un-crewed test flight will be pushed to the end of the year where the crewed test flight was supposed to be.

Combination of things.  For example, the interface control document between the vehicles was only draft at the time of the contract letting.  It was not finalized until recently which impacted the providers to code that area and begin testing - which was supposed to soon.  The NASA docking System documents were also not finalized until very recently.  Requirements have also continued to evolve with new ones being added.  Then you add in issues which you hope won't occur/know where they will occur during development like acoustics. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 05/15/2016 03:49 PM
Weight problems eh? :o Now where have we seen this before?? ???
Yeh, I wasn't going there but Weight and Acoustics = Ares/Orion.

I wonder if the CST-100 is also too heavy for its parachutes.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The Amazing Catstronaut on 05/15/2016 04:20 PM
/
Weight problems eh? :o Now where have we seen this before?? ???
Yeh, I wasn't going there but Weight and Acoustics = Ares/Orion.

I wonder if the CST-100 is also too heavy for its parachutes.

How did it get that heavy? It seems like an extremely basic miscalculation.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TrevorMonty on 05/15/2016 04:46 PM
LAS would be the most affected by an increase in weight. No simple fix either as service module would need more thrust (additional engines) and fuel, both would increase weight again.

At least Atlas has option of extra SRBs. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 05/15/2016 05:25 PM
LAS would be the most affected by an increase in weight. No simple fix either as service module would need more thrust (additional engines) and fuel, both would increase weight again.

At least Atlas has option of extra SRBs.
Add an extra SRB and all the design analysis must be redone:
1) structural forces analysis
2) acoustic/vibration analysis
3) abort escape scenarios acceleration requirements during SRB burn
4) launch trajectory design

Basically almost a complete redo of the CDR.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 06/06/2016 10:36 AM
The upper dome of a Boeing Starliner spacecraft inside the company’s Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The upper dome is part of Spacecraft 1, a Starliner that will perform a pad abort flight test as part of the development process of the spacecraft in partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. The Starliner is designed to carry up to four astronauts to the International Space Station for commercial crew missions.
Photo credit: Amber Watson
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: slavvy on 06/06/2016 10:55 AM
A dumb question: is the dome part on the pictures machined out a single block of aluminium or is it welded from several pieces?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 06/06/2016 12:49 PM
I like how each port or other attachment area that is symmetrical about an axis has an indexing hole to ensure proper part alignment...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 06/06/2016 04:09 PM
Starliner Elements Arrive for Spacecraft 1

NASAKennedy

Published on Jun 6, 2016
The upper dome of a Boeing Starliner spacecraft arrived at the company’s Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The upper dome is part of Spacecraft 1, a Starliner that will perform a pad abort flight test as part of the development process of the spacecraft in partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. The Starliner is designed to carry up to four astronauts to the International Space Station for commercial crew missions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3G-KIuzguY?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3G-KIuzguY

Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 06/06/2016 09:48 PM
A dumb question: is the dome part on the pictures machined out a single block of aluminium or is it welded from several pieces?

no welds.

They form a single piece of aluminum into the rough shape, then machine it the rest of the way.

CST-100 pressure vessels are made by Spincraft.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 06/09/2016 02:45 AM
From a NASA blog post: http://www.nasa.gov/feature/2016-advances-mark-commercial-crews-path-to-flight

Quote
Later this year, Boeing will test parachute components to be used on Starliner flights, in a series of progressively more flight-like drop tests, including high-altitude boilerplate releases from balloons.

Has anyone ever done drop tests like this via balloon before?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: GClark on 06/10/2016 09:48 AM
Has anyone ever done drop tests like this via balloon before?

Mercury and Vostok both did balloon drop tests.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Archibald on 06/10/2016 04:24 PM
So did Viking EDL around 1973, because Mars atmosphere is kind of Earth 90 000 ft high, and balloons were a cheap way to get there.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 06/27/2016 01:54 AM
Apparently Boeing willl be toting around a 3.8M Ku-band antenna for their recovery ops...

FCC Filing by Boeing (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr031b.hts?q_set=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number/%3D/SESSTAINTR201601453&prepare=&column=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number)
Quote
File Number: SES-STA-INTR2016-01453
Description: Special Temporary Authority Request to initiate operations to support communications command and control for recovery operations for the Commercial Crew Transportation System (CCTS).

another FCC filing (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr031b.hts?q_set=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number/%3D/SESLIC2016042600373&prepare=&column=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number)
Quote
File Number: SES-LIC-20160426-00373
Description: To provide communications Command and Control (CCISR) for 2 (ea) temporary fixed ground stations operating in the US during recovery operations.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 06/27/2016 04:30 PM
Training and simulator news:

Reach for the STAR: New facility houses upgraded Starliner training devices (http://beyondearth.com/reach-for-the-star-new-facility-houses-upgraded-starliner-training-devices/)
Quote
Just like the North Star, Boeing’s new Space Training, Analysis and Review Facility, also known as STAR, will serve as a guide for explorers. The opening of the facility on June 21 is the latest step for Boeing as it prepares to transport NASA astronauts to the International Space Station aboard the Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner spacecraft.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 07/05/2016 07:21 PM
Boeing is evaluating the flight deck designs for its CST-100 Starliner spacecraft as development work continues toward the final layout of the seating and control panels. Former astronaut Chris Ferguson, now deputy program manager and director of Crew and Mission Operations for Boeing’s Commercial Crew Program, is performing the tests that look into a number of factors of comfort and usability for the systems. The Starliner is being developed by Boeing in partnership with NASA's Commercial Crew Program to take astronauts to the International Space Station. Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 07/08/2016 08:42 PM
Boeings CST-100 Starliner Prepares for Space

Boeing

Published on Jul 8, 2016
As astronauts train to go to space, the system Boeing is building to take them to the International Space Station is also getting in shape for the 220-mile journey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svP9W_N4d5c?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svP9W_N4d5c
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/25/2016 07:01 PM
Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc.
Jul 25, 2016
Aerojet Rocketdyne Successfully Completes Hot-Fire Tests on Engines Designed to Support New Era of Human Spaceflight for U.S.

SACRAMENTO, Calif., July 25, 2016 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Aerojet Rocketdyne, Inc., a subsidiary of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AJRD), has successfully completed a series of hot-fire development tests on three Reaction Control System (RCS) engines for Boeing's Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner service module propulsion system. Each RCS engine was tested up to 4,000 pulses and 1,600 seconds - the longest accumulated time ever conducted on a lightweight thruster with a composite chamber. The tests were performed at NASA's White Sands Test Facility in New Mexico.

A photo accompanying this announcement is available at http://www.globenewswire.com/NewsRoom/AttachmentNg/2046eaef-20c9-4a8f-86b0-44763aad02c0

"The successful RCS engine tests demonstrated durability and long operational life capabilities meeting the Starliner requirements for composite thrust chambers, which are crucial to mission success and astronaut safety," said Aerojet Rocketdyne CEO and President Eileen Drake. "We look forward to qualifying the engines and continuing our nation's legacy of delivering humans into space."

Starliner is designed to open a new era of spaceflight, one that will carry humans to the International Space Station once again from American soil. The RCS engines are part of the spacecraft's service module propulsion system, and are designed to provide on-orbit maneuvering functions, as well as re-boost capabilities for the space station.

Under its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract to Boeing, Aerojet Rocketdyne is completing the design, development, qualification, certification and initial production of the service module propulsion system. As part of that contract, Aerojet Rocketdyne will provide shipsets of service module propulsion system production hardware. Each shipset will include Launch Abort Engines (LAEs), Orbital Maneuvering and Attitude Control (OMAC) engines and RCS engines. Boeing will assemble hardware kits into the service module section of the Starliner spacecraft at its Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Aerojet Rocketdyne also provides propulsion hardware supporting the Starliner crew module and Atlas V launch vehicle. The Starliner is targeting the delivery of astronauts to the space station for NASA beginning in 2018.

The Starliner service module propulsion system provides launch abort capability on the pad and during ascent, along with all propulsion needs during a nominal flight—from launch vehicle separation, docking and undocking from the space station, and through separation of the crew and service modules when the spacecraft begins to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere. During re-entry, the crew module propulsion is then provided by monopropellant thrusters built by Aerojet Rocketdyne.

Aerojet Rocketdyne is an innovative company delivering solutions that create value for its customers in the aerospace and defense markets. The company is a world-recognized aerospace and defense leader that provides propulsion and energetics to the space, missile defense and strategic systems, tactical systems and armaments areas, in support of domestic and international markets. Additional information about Aerojet Rocketdyne can be obtained by visiting our websites at www.Rocket.com and www.AerojetRocketdyne.com.

Contact:

Glenn Mahone, Aerojet Rocketdyne, 202-302-9941

[email protected]

Carri Karuhn, Aerojet Rocketdyne, 818-586-4963

[email protected]

Aerojet Rocketdyne

Source: Aerojet Rocketdyne, Inc.
News Provided by Acquire Media

Photo Caption: One of three Reaction Control System engines for Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner recently completed hot-fire testing at NASA’s White Sands Test Facility in New Mexico
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 07/26/2016 02:12 PM
The first hull of the Boeing CST-100 Starliner Structural Test Article rests in a work stand inside the company’s modernized Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility high bay at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The facility will serve as a hub for the company’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft operations, making it an integral element of the Starliner program to take astronauts to and from the International Space Station from American soil.

Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 07/27/2016 12:40 AM
Some good news:

Quote from: Jeff Foust
McAlister: Boeing developing extended skirt to address high acoustic loads behind capsule; waiting for final wind tunnel test data.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/757952991945109505
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 07/27/2016 02:48 AM
Boeing - CST-100 Starliner Update 07-26-2016

USLaunchReport

Published on Jul 26, 2016
Today we got a look at the Boeing Starliner, Commercial Crew Capsule. Progress report.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9WXFQswjr4?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9WXFQswjr4
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: baldusi on 07/27/2016 03:03 PM
Some good news:

Quote from: Jeff Foust
McAlister: Boeing developing extended skirt to address high acoustic loads behind capsule; waiting for final wind tunnel test data.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/757952991945109505

This is the risk of doing a meticulous plan of how are you going to certify instead of building a few things first. Interesting that NASA chose the two extremes in this. We will have to see if it makes any difference in practice. I will say that both will be delayed about the same.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 07/27/2016 03:33 PM
Some good news:

Quote from: Jeff Foust
McAlister: Boeing developing extended skirt to address high acoustic loads behind capsule; waiting for final wind tunnel test data.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/757952991945109505

This is the risk of doing a meticulous plan of how are you going to certify instead of building a few things first. Interesting that NASA chose the two extremes in this. We will have to see if it makes any difference in practice. I will say that both will be delayed about the same.

I understand this general criticism of the CST-100 program, but I don't feel it completely applies to this issue.

What should they have built sooner? They've had models in the wind tunnel for years.

I continue to wonder how this issue wasn't identified sooner.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 07/27/2016 04:06 PM

What should they have built sooner? They've had models in the wind tunnel for years.

I continue to wonder how this issue wasn't identified sooner.

I suspect the issue only came up when they had to add another SRB to the Atlas V. That's about when the skirt showed up in the CST-100 renders.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 08/03/2016 11:27 AM
Update on starliner fixes

http://spaceflightnow.com/2016/08/02/boeing-nears-fix-for-cst-100-starliner-design-hitch/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/09/2016 12:55 PM
Previewing pad complete:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/08/pad-changes-new-era-space-coast/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: psloss on 08/11/2016 08:28 PM
https://twitter.com/Commercial_Crew/status/763816127172599808
Quote
[email protected] #Starliner Crew Access Arm that @Commercial_Crew astronauts will use is trucked past the #VAB.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: psloss on 08/11/2016 11:15 PM
More pix on NASA KSC's Flickr page (https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/).  Attached one from Pad 41 close to where Saturday's media event (https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/media-invited-to-starliner-crew-access-arm-and-white-room-installation) will be.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: shuttlefan on 08/13/2016 04:22 AM
More pix on NASA KSC's Flickr page (https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/).  Attached one from Pad 41 close to where Saturday's media event (https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/media-invited-to-starliner-crew-access-arm-and-white-room-installation) will be.


Is this lift operation still on schedule for Saturday August 13th?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Endeavour126 on 08/13/2016 04:56 AM
More pix on NASA KSC's Flickr page (https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/).  Attached one from Pad 41 close to where Saturday's media event (https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/media-invited-to-starliner-crew-access-arm-and-white-room-installation) will be.

There is also a video now.

http://spaceflightnow.com/2016/08/13/video-gantry-swing-arm-arrives-at-atlas-5-pad-for-astronauts-to-board-starliners/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: psloss on 08/15/2016 12:58 PM
https://twitter.com/Commercial_Crew/status/765150982426750976
Quote
This morning @ulalaunch and @BoeingDefense are lifting the #Starliner Crew Access Arm and White Room #LaunchAmerica
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: psloss on 08/15/2016 02:19 PM
https://twitter.com/Astro_Ferg/status/765170109438623745
Quote
The newest "Last Place on Earth" for astronauts finds a new home at Atlas launch complex 41
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: psloss on 08/15/2016 03:30 PM
Past tense Tweet, with time-lapse video (also attached).

https://twitter.com/Commercial_Crew/status/765191671629873152
Quote
The Crew Access Arm for @BoeingDefense #Starliner was placed this morning by @ulalaunch at SLC-41 to #LaunchAmerica.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: BrightLight on 08/15/2016 09:25 PM
Here is a screen grab showing the arm installed on the crew access tower from a video shown at News 6, the URL is:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/space-news/starliner-access-arm-installed-at-cape-canaveral
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: BrightLight on 08/15/2016 09:39 PM
Image of the crew acess arm in the folded position
from:
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/crew-access-arm-installed-for-starliner-missions
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 08/15/2016 10:16 PM
Starliner Crew Access Arm Installed at SLC-41

NASAKennedy

Published on Aug 15, 2016
The Crew Access Arm astronauts will walk across to get to Boeing's Starliner spacecraft on launch day was lifted and bolted into place Monday, Aug. 15, 2016, at SLC-41. United Launch Alliance is outfitting the Atlas V launch complex for crews that will fly into space on Starliner/Atlas V missions including those for NASA's Commercial Crew Program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8r6lAOOCHc?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8r6lAOOCHc
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 08/15/2016 11:47 PM
Past tense Tweet, with time-lapse video (also attached).

https://twitter.com/Commercial_Crew/status/765191671629873152
Quote
The Crew Access Arm for @BoeingDefense #Starliner was placed this morning by @ulalaunch at SLC-41 to #LaunchAmerica.

Uploaded to YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIXRirqCEmI
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 08/18/2016 02:51 AM
Opening Remarks: Boeing CST-100 Crew Access Arm Install:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyNBy9CWmuM
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 08/18/2016 02:53 AM
Timelapse Of Boeing CST-100 Crew Access Arm Lift And Installation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2a6Kf3WSYI
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Targeteer on 08/18/2016 08:37 PM
https://www.facebook.com/NASACommercialCrew/photos/pcb.1054307041332820/1054305007999690/?type=3&theater

Another milestone toward launching astronauts on ‪#‎AtlasV‬! Test firing one of the Aerojet Rocketdyne RL10 engines that will help boost Boeing's ‪#‎Starliner‬ capsule! ‪#‎LaunchAmerica‬

Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 08/18/2016 10:22 PM
Crew Flight Test Engine Hot Fired

NASAKennedy

Published on Aug 18, 2016
Commercial crew astronauts Eric Boe and Suni Williams were joined by NASA astronaut Butch Wilmore to watch Aerojet Rocketdyne hot-fire test the company’s RL10 engine in West Palm Beach, Florida that will be used for Boeing’s Crew Flight Test in February 2018. The RL10 engine is a critical element on the United Launch Alliance Centuar upper stage for the Atlas V rocket, which will lift Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner for a mission to the International Space Station under NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Saaq1yMxt84?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Saaq1yMxt84

Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 08/19/2016 06:18 AM
https://www.facebook.com/NASACommercialCrew/photos/pcb.1054307041332820/1054305007999690/?type=3&theater

Another milestone toward launching astronauts on ‪#‎AtlasV‬! Test firing one of the Aerojet Rocketdyne RL10 engines that will help boost Boeing's ‪#‎Starliner‬ capsule! ‪#‎LaunchAmerica‬

I had not realized how small the RL-10 is...  :o  (re: picture of astronauts inspecting an RL-10)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/19/2016 05:44 PM
https://www.facebook.com/NASACommercialCrew/photos/pcb.1054307041332820/1054305007999690/?type=3&theater

Another milestone toward launching astronauts on ‪#‎AtlasV‬! Test firing one of the Aerojet Rocketdyne RL10 engines that will help boost Boeing's ‪#‎Starliner‬ capsule! ‪#‎LaunchAmerica‬

I had not realized how small the RL-10 is...  :o  (re: picture of astronauts inspecting an RL-10)
an albeit not fully assembled one.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: okan170 on 08/19/2016 06:24 PM
Can't wait until we start seeing photos with both engines side-by-side getting ready for flight.  Not that much longer to wait!
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 08/21/2016 12:37 PM
http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/aerojet-rocketdyne/rl10-test-paves-way-future-starliner-flights/

Quote
Three NASA astronauts assigned to the Commercial Crew program—Eric Boe, Sunita Williams, and Barry “Butch” Wilmore—watched frost and icicles build up on the engine bell and components as cryogenic liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen flowed through the system during the six-minute firing. The test included a shutdown and restart in vacuum, which will occur during an actual mission. According to Boe, “Today’s test was just amazing and from what it looked like, it looked flawless.”

two upper stage burns for an ISS mission?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 08/22/2016 06:39 AM
two upper stage burns for an ISS mission?

The second burn is probably for deorbiting the second stage.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: brickmack on 08/22/2016 10:04 PM
two upper stage burns for an ISS mission?

The second burn is probably for deorbiting the second stage.

Looking at the Atlas V payload planners guide, I see theres a sizeable performance increase for low circular orbit missions by launching first into an eliptical orbit and then circularizing, rather than going directly into that orbit. That would be two burns, plus a third to deorbit. Now, the tables there aren't complete (no figures are given for DEC configurations, and the minimum altitude listed for Parking Orbit Ascent to Circular Orbit is only 500 km), but this does seem to be at least a reasonable possibility. Especially if they're really tight on performance margin, which seems to be the case based on recent news
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rcoppola on 08/22/2016 10:17 PM
I don't understand the drama of this test fire? Haven't we been flying these engines for 50 years? Or is there some major engine development milestone I missed along the way?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/22/2016 11:06 PM
I don't understand the drama of this test fire? Haven't we been flying these engines for 50 years? Or is there some major engine development milestone I missed along the way?
There is no change. To sum it up for you the drama is only hype on the test firing of the first human rated RL10A-4 flight article ahead of integration on the first human rated Atlas 5 DEC flight article. And that is all this is about.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: guckyfan on 08/23/2016 10:20 AM
Looking at the Atlas V payload planners guide, I see theres a sizeable performance increase for low circular orbit missions by launching first into an eliptical orbit and then circularizing, rather than going directly into that orbit.

But would not the service module do the circularization and approach to the ISS?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AnalogMan on 08/24/2016 10:37 PM
Starliner Tested for Ground-Landing Condition
24 ‎August ‎2016, ‏‎Steven Siceloff

Boeing engineers recently evaluated the CST-100 Starliner spacecraft’s ability to withstand the shocks and other challenges of landing on the ground with a series of drop tests at NASA’s Langley Research Center in Virginia. Hoisted using a gantry at Langley that’s tested everything from private planes to the lunar lander of Apollo, a Starliner mockup with a full-size airbag system in place was released from about 30 feet to see how it behaved when contacting the Earth. The airbags have been designed to absorb much of the impact. A nominal Starliner mission, such as those planned to take NASA astronauts to the International Space Station during Commercial Crew Program flights, is to end with the spacecraft touching down on land in the American southwest where ground support teams can more easily reach the spacecraft and crew than if they splashed down in water.

The Starliner was already tested in water-landing scenarios in the same gantry. All the results will be used by Boeing to confirm the designs of the landing systems and by NASA to certify the systems for use during upcoming flight tests without and then with a crew aboard. Rad many more details about the Starliner testing at http://go.nasa.gov/2bFMZZk (http://go.nasa.gov/2bFMZZk)

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/08/24/starliner-tested-for-ground-landing-conditions/ (https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/08/24/starliner-tested-for-ground-landing-conditions/)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/24/2016 10:59 PM
Looking at the Atlas V payload planners guide, I see theres a sizeable performance increase for low circular orbit missions by launching first into an eliptical orbit and then circularizing, rather than going directly into that orbit.

But would not the service module do the circularization and approach to the ISS?
no. the orbit insertion would be performed by Centaur in the same manner as the Cygnus flights to ISS
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Patchouli on 08/28/2016 11:12 PM
I figure the Centaur would be left on a sub orbital trajectory that takes it to a reentry over the Indian ocean.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: douglas100 on 08/30/2016 08:16 AM
Why waste service module prop to do what the Centaur can do?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/30/2016 05:26 PM
I figure the Centaur would be left on a sub orbital trajectory that takes it to a reentry over the Indian ocean.
Starliner would have insufficent Delta-V to perform its whole mission. Mission simulations are counting on Centaur performing the orbit insertion to an inital circular parking orbit like that of Shuttle and Cygnus missions.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 08/31/2016 07:18 PM
I figure the Centaur would be left on a sub orbital trajectory that takes it to a reentry over the Indian ocean.
Starliner would have insufficent Delta-V to perform its whole mission. Mission simulations are counting on Centaur performing the orbit insertion to an inital circular parking orbit like that of Shuttle and Cygnus missions.

And Centaur - more than any other current upper stage - is certainly more than capable of de-orbiting itself. This is what Centaur does on LEO missions (see Cygnus).
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kryten on 09/14/2016 08:50 PM
Quote
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  2m2 minutes ago
Chris Ferguson, Boeing: plan to start CST-100 parachute tests, dropping test article from balloon at 40,000 ft, in about week. #AIAASpace
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 09/23/2016 06:41 AM
Sept. 22, 2016

 Media Invited to Starliner Training Simulation at Johnson Space Center

 NASA and Boeing will mark the installation of new CST-100 Starliner spacecraft training devices in the historic Jake Garn Mission Simulator and Training Facility at Johnson Space Center in Houston, on Wednesday, Sept. 28. Boeing is one of two companies the agency’s Commercial Crew Program contracted to return crew launch capability to the U.S. Media are invited to participate in a roundtable discussion with NASA and Boeing representatives, as well as observe astronauts operating the Starliner Crew Part-Task Trainers during a simulation.

Boeing is developing a suite of training devices and a cloud-based simulation server to efficiently train Starliner crews and mission controllers, as part of its crew transportation contract with the agency’s Commercial Crew Program. Boeing's Crew Part-Task Trainers are the first training devices delivered and installed at Johnson in support of the crew flight test and ultimately crew rotation missions to the International Space Station aboard the Starliner. The immersive, high-fidelity Boeing Mission Simulator is scheduled to be delivered, installed and integrated with the Mission Control Center early next year.

The Johnson simulator facility has been the home of astronaut training for decades, including space shuttle and space station missions. While the building is transforming to support some of NASA's next generation of spaceflight training hardware, this event is an opportunity to see the transition take shape and learn more about upcoming work from Johnson and Boeing senior managers and the astronauts who will fly the first test flights.

Media must arrive at the Johnson Badging Office (Building 110) no later than 8:30 a.m. CDT for transport as one group on NASA transportation to and from the simulator facility. Attendees should wear business or business casual attire and low-heeled, closed-toe shoes.

RSVP for U.S. and naturalized citizens and green card holders is required by 9 a.m. Tuesday, Sept. 27 to the JSC Newsroom at 281-483-5111. The event will conclude with return to Building 110 no later than 10:30 a.m. International media accreditation is closed for this event.

For more information about NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/commercialcrew
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: collectSPACE on 09/29/2016 04:18 PM
Boeing's Starliner crew trainers installed in historic NASA simulator facility
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-092816a-boeing-cst100-starliner-simulators.html

"It's a big responsibility for Boeing to train astronauts," said Chris Ferguson, Boeing commercial crew program deputy manager and director of crew and mission operations, who previously trained in the same facility as a NASA astronaut and commander of the final space shuttle mission in 2011.

"This 'plan, train, fly' task is something that formerly NASA had exclusive ownership of, but as part of our contract to provide services back and forth between the space station, we not only provide the service — the taxi, if you will — but we also have to train the flight controllers, the crew, and have everybody ready to go," Ferguson said.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 10/04/2016 04:32 AM
On the same topic:
https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/09/28/boeing-unveils-new-home-for-starliner-trainers/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Navier–Stokes on 10/11/2016 02:26 PM
Boeing Delays CST-100, Still Targets 2018 ISS Mission (http://aviationweek.com/space/boeing-delays-cst-100-still-targets-2018-iss-mission?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20161011_AW-05_297&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000001204170&utm_campaign=7294&utm_medium=email&elq2=dff0d1852b37420385c52583ea2f64c0) (Aviation Week, full access with non-subscriber account)
Quote
Revised Schedule For Boeing CST-100
> Overall 6-month delay
> Uncrewed orbital flight now June 2018
> First crewed test flight now August 2018
> First operational mission to ISS now targeted at December 2018
> Static test crew module set for delivery to California
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Dante80 on 10/11/2016 08:03 PM
A derivative article to circumvent the need for a free account.

Boeing delays Starliner again, casting doubt on commercial flights in 2018 (http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/10/boeing-delays-starliner-again-casting-doubt-on-commercial-flights-in-2018/)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/12/2016 02:00 AM
The Pad Abort Test has also been delayed to January 2018.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 10/13/2016 03:17 AM
SpaceNews confirms the January pad abort test.

http://spacenews.com/boeing-delays-cst-100-test-flights-by-six-months/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/18/2016 08:09 PM
Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc.
Oct 18, 2016

Aerojet Rocketdyne Delivers First Set of Propulsion Hardware for Boeing's Starliner Spacecraft

SACRAMENTO, Calif., Oct. 18, 2016 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Aerojet Rocketdyne, a subsidiary of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AJRD), has completed delivery of the first set of hardware for Boeing's Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner service module propulsion system. The Starliner is designed to ferry NASA astronauts to and from the International Space Station. The first delivered hardware includes the low-pressure port and starboard manifold assemblies, which will distribute helium necessary to push propellants out to the service module's engines and thrusters.

"The delivery of the first set of hardware for Starliner marks a significant milestone in the history of our nation's leadership in space and its ability to send astronauts to the International Space Station from American soil once again," said Aerojet Rocketdyne CEO and President Eileen Drake. "Congratulations to the entire team for its hard work and dedication on this critical NASA program."

The spacecraft's service module propulsion system provides integrated launch-abort capability on the pad and during ascent, along with all propulsion needs during a nominal flight - from launch vehicle separation, docking and undocking from the space station, and through separation of the crew and service modules when the spacecraft begins to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere.

Under its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract to Boeing, Aerojet Rocketdyne is completing the design, development, qualification, certification and initial production of the service module propulsion system. As part of the contract, Aerojet Rocketdyne will provide shipsets of service module propulsion system production hardware. Each shipset will include Launch Abort Engines (LAEs), Orbital Maneuvering and Attitude Control (OMAC) engines, Reaction Control System (RCS) engines, valves, tanks and more than 500 feet of ducts, lines and tubing. Boeing will assemble hardware kits into the service module section of the Starliner spacecraft at its Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Aerojet Rocketdyne also provides propulsion hardware supporting the Starliner crew module and Atlas V launch vehicle. The Starliner is targeting the delivery of astronauts to the space station for NASA, beginning in 2018.

The Starliner service module propulsion system includes 40,000-pound thrust launch abort engines used only in the unlikely event of a low-altitude abort; 1,500-pound thrust class OMAC engines that provide low-altitude launch abort attitude control; maneuvering and stage-separation functions; high-altitude direct abort capability and large orbital maneuvers; and 100-pound thrust class RCS engines that provide high-altitude abort attitude control, on-orbit low delta-v maneuvering function, and space station re-boost capability.

Aerojet Rocketdyne is an innovative company delivering solutions that create value for its customers in the aerospace and defense markets. The company is a world-recognized aerospace and defense leader that provides propulsion and energetics to the space, missile defense and strategic systems, tactical systems and armaments areas, in support of domestic and international markets. Additional information about Aerojet Rocketdyne can be obtained by visiting our websites at www.Rocket.com (http://www.Rocket.com) and www.AerojetRocketdyne.com (http://www.AerojetRocketdyne.com).

Contact:
Glenn Mahone, Aerojet Rocketdyne, 202-302-9941

[email protected]

Carri Karuhn, Aerojet Rocketdyne, 818-586-4963

[email protected]cket.com


Source: Aerojet Rocketdyne, Inc.
News Provided by Acquire Media
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AnalogMan on 10/19/2016 01:22 AM
Starliner Propulsion Hardware Arrives, Testing Begins
October 18, 2016 - Stephanie Martin

Boeing and Aerojet Rocketdyne have begun a series of developmental hot-fires tests with two launch abort engines similar to the ones that will be part of Boeing’s Starliner service module. The engines, designed to maximize thrust build-up, while minimizing overshoot during start up, will be fired between half a second and 3 seconds each during the test campaign. If the Starliner’s four launch abort engines were used during an abort scenario, they would fire between 3 and 5.5 seconds, with enough thrust to get the spacecraft and its crew away from the rocket, before splashing down in the ocean under parachutes.

Recently, Aerojet Rocketdyne also completed delivery of the first set of hardware for Starliner’s service module propulsion system.

The Starliner is under development in collaboration with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program for crew missions to the International Space Station.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/10/18/starliner-propulsion-hardware-arrives-testing-begins/ (https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/10/18/starliner-propulsion-hardware-arrives-testing-begins/)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 10/19/2016 07:13 AM
Starliner Propulsion Hardware Arrives, Testing Begins
October 18, 2016 - Stephanie Martin

Boeing and Aerojet Rocketdyne have begun a series of developmental hot-fires tests with two launch abort engines similar to the ones that will be part of Boeing’s Starliner service module. The engines, designed to maximize thrust build-up, while minimizing overshoot during start up, will be fired between half a second and 3 seconds each during the test campaign. If the Starliner’s four launch abort engines were used during an abort scenario, they would fire between 3 and 5.5 seconds, with enough thrust to get the spacecraft and its crew away from the rocket, before splashing down in the ocean under parachutes.

Recently, Aerojet Rocketdyne also completed delivery of the first set of hardware for Starliner’s service module propulsion system.

The Starliner is under development in collaboration with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program for crew missions to the International Space Station.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/10/18/starliner-propulsion-hardware-arrives-testing-begins/ (https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/10/18/starliner-propulsion-hardware-arrives-testing-begins/)

If we compare the development of the abort engines for the respective CCP vehicles then Boeing is running about a year behind that other CCP company. That is: assuming the description on the NASA blog is correct and we see a development firing of the abort engine. Image is from a firing on october 11th.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/19/2016 07:40 AM
Starliner Propulsion Hardware Arrives, Testing Begins
October 18, 2016 - Stephanie Martin

Boeing and Aerojet Rocketdyne have begun a series of developmental hot-fires tests with two launch abort engines similar to the ones that will be part of Boeing’s Starliner service module. The engines, designed to maximize thrust build-up, while minimizing overshoot during start up, will be fired between half a second and 3 seconds each during the test campaign. If the Starliner’s four launch abort engines were used during an abort scenario, they would fire between 3 and 5.5 seconds, with enough thrust to get the spacecraft and its crew away from the rocket, before splashing down in the ocean under parachutes.

Recently, Aerojet Rocketdyne also completed delivery of the first set of hardware for Starliner’s service module propulsion system.

The Starliner is under development in collaboration with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program for crew missions to the International Space Station.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/10/18/starliner-propulsion-hardware-arrives-testing-begins/ (https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2016/10/18/starliner-propulsion-hardware-arrives-testing-begins/)

If we compare the development of the abort engines for the respective CCP vehicles then Boeing is running about a year behind that other CCP company. That is: assuming the description on the NASA blog is correct and we see a development firing of the abort engine. Image is from a firing on october 11th.

The AR Pressert paragraph in bold is what NASA should have meant to say.

Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc.
Oct 18, 2016

Aerojet Rocketdyne Delivers First Set of Propulsion Hardware for Boeing's Starliner Spacecraft

SACRAMENTO, Calif., Oct. 18, 2016 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Aerojet Rocketdyne, a subsidiary of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AJRD), has completed delivery of the first set of hardware for Boeing's Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner service module propulsion system.

...

Under its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract to Boeing, Aerojet Rocketdyne is completing the design, development, qualification, certification and initial production of the service module propulsion system. As part of the contract, Aerojet Rocketdyne will provide shipsets of service module propulsion system production hardware. Each shipset will include Launch Abort Engines (LAEs), Orbital Maneuvering and Attitude Control (OMAC) engines, Reaction Control System (RCS) engines, valves, tanks and more than 500 feet of ducts, lines and tubing. Boeing will assemble hardware kits into the service module section of the Starliner spacecraft at its Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Aerojet Rocketdyne also provides propulsion hardware supporting the Starliner crew module and Atlas V launch vehicle. The Starliner is targeting the delivery of astronauts to the space station for NASA, beginning in 2018.

...

Source: Aerojet Rocketdyne, Inc.
News Provided by Acquire Media
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/31/2016 05:37 PM
Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc.
Oct 31, 2016

Aerojet Rocketdyne Successfully Completes Launch Abort Engine Hot Fire Tests to Support Next Era of Human Spaceflight Launches from the United States

SACRAMENTO, Calif., Oct. 31, 2016 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Aerojet Rocketdyne, a subsidiary of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AJRD), has successfully completed a series of hot-fire tests on two Launch Abort Engines (LAE) featuring innovative new propellant valves for Boeing's Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner service module propulsion system. The tests were conducted in the Mojave Desert in California, and confirmed the ability for the new valves to modulate propellant flow and control peak LAE thrust in the event of a launch abort.

LAE Test
Aerojet Rocketdyne successfully completed a series of hot-fire tests on two Launch Abort Engines featuring innovative new propellant valves for Boeing's CST-100 Starliner service module propulsion system

A photo accompanying this announcement is available at http://www.globenewswire.com/NewsRoom/AttachmentNg/dd0faaec-5132-4568-ab73-59415bf46706

The LAEs, designed by Aerojet Rocketdyne, include a fuel valve and oxidizer valve, which were developed and tested under the company's Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) subcontract to Boeing. The Starliner will open a new era of spaceflight, carrying humans to the International Space Station once again from United States soil.

"These innovative valves successfully enabled the engine to demonstrate precise timing, peak thrust control and steady-state thrust necessary during a mission abort. This testing culminates a year of dedicated hard work by the LAE Integrated Product Team at Aerojet Rocketdyne," said Aerojet Rocketdyne CEO and President Eileen Drake. "This is another important step forward as our nation prepares to safely and reliably send humans back to the space station from American soil."

Under the CCtCap subcontract to Boeing, Aerojet Rocketdyne will provide propulsion system hardware, which includes LAEs, Orbital Maneuvering and Attitude Control (OMAC) thrusters, Reaction Control System (RCS) thrusters, and more. Boeing will assemble propulsion hardware kits into the service module section of the Starliner spacecraft at its Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Aerojet Rocketdyne also provides hardware supporting service module hot-fire testing, which will take place at NASA's White Sands Test Facility in New Mexico; the pad abort and system qualification testing, which will occur at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico; and the orbital flight test, which will be launched from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. 

The Starliner service module propulsion system provides launch abort capability on the pad and during ascent, along with propulsion needs during flight - from launch vehicle separation, docking to and undocking from the space station, to separation of the crew and service modules when the spacecraft begins to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere. At separation, crew module monopropellant thrusters, also provided by Aerojet Rocketdyne, support re-entry control.

The Starliner service module and launch abort propulsion system is designed to rapidly "push" a crew capsule to safety if an abort is necessary. If unused for an abort, the propellant is used to complete the spacecraft's mission operations. The Starliner service module propulsion system includes four 40,000-pound thrust launch abort engines used only in an abort; 1,500-pound thrust class OMAC thrusters that provide low-altitude launch abort attitude control; maneuvering and stage-separation functions along with high-altitude direct abort capability and large orbital maneuvers; and 100-pound thrust class RCS engines that provide high-altitude abort attitude control, on-orbit low delta-v maneuvering and space station re-boost capability.

Aerojet Rocketdyne is an innovative company delivering solutions that create value for its customers in the aerospace and defense markets. The company is a world-recognized aerospace and defense leader that provides propulsion and energetics to the space, missile defense and strategic systems, tactical systems and armaments areas, in support of domestic and international markets. Additional information about Aerojet Rocketdyne can be obtained by visiting our websites at www.Rocket.com (http://www.Rocket.com) and www.AerojetRocketdyne.com (http://www.AerojetRocketdyne.com).

 

Contact: Glenn Mahone, Aerojet Rocketdyne, 202-302-9941

[email protected]

Carri Karuhn, Aerojet Rocketdyne, 818-586-4963

[email protected]

Primary Logo

Source: Aerojet Rocketdyne, Inc.
News Provided by Acquire Media
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Prober on 11/22/2016 04:54 PM
https://www.facebook.com/NASACommercialCrew/photos/pcb.1054307041332820/1054305007999690/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/NASACommercialCrew/photos/pcb.1054307041332820/1054305007999690/?type=3&theater)

Another milestone toward launching astronauts on ‪#‎AtlasV‬! Test firing one of the Aerojet Rocketdyne RL10 engines that will help boost Boeing's ‪#‎Starliner‬ capsule! ‪#‎LaunchAmerica‬


are we still working out of the RL-10 stockpile?


which model RL-10 is locked down?



Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: PahTo on 11/22/2016 05:05 PM

are we still working out of the RL-10 stockpile?


which model RL-10 is locked down?


I'm pretty sure the majority of Centaur launches now use the C1 variant, and there are still Delta launches that will utilize the B2 variant, headed towards the C2.  I believe the CST Centaur will use two A4 variants due to space constraints, but not positive...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/22/2016 06:02 PM

are we still working out of the RL-10 stockpile?


which model RL-10 is locked down?


I'm pretty sure the majority of Centaur launches now use the C1 variant, and there are still Delta launches that will utilize the B2 variant, headed towards the C2.  I believe the CST Centaur will use two A4 variants due to space constraints, but not positive...
A4 version is last that I heard and seen in pictures.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: brickmack on 11/24/2016 03:25 AM
I'm pretty sure the majority of Centaur launches now use the C1 variant, and there are still Delta launches that will utilize the B2 variant, headed towards the C2.  I believe the CST Centaur will use two A4 variants due to space constraints, but not positive...

I'm not really sure what was gained by switching to "common" RL-10-C. Both of the old variants are still in use, performance is significantly reduced, and Delta IV is going to be retired soon anyway. All they've done is added yet another production line (or 2?), and another configuration option to be managed for both rockets. It seems like a net-negative on all fronts, why not just wait for Delta IV to die and keep using RL-10-A4?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: okan170 on 11/24/2016 03:33 AM
I'm not really sure what was gained by switching to "common" RL-10-C. Both of the old variants are still in use, performance is significantly reduced, and Delta IV is going to be retired soon anyway. All they've done is added yet another production line (or 2?), and another configuration option to be managed for both rockets. It seems like a net-negative on all fronts, why not just wait for Delta IV to die and keep using RL-10-A4?

EUS is supposed to use RL-10-C3 (which, from what I can gather, is a variant with a fixed nozzle extension), but yeah, it sounds a bit like something that would pay off more if Delta IV was sticking around longer.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Newton_V on 11/24/2016 03:39 AM
I'm not really sure what was gained by switching to "common" RL-10-C. Both of the old variants are still in use, performance is significantly reduced, and Delta IV is going to be retired soon anyway. All they've done is added yet another production line (or 2?), and another configuration option to be managed for both rockets. It seems like a net-negative on all fronts, why not just wait for Delta IV to die and keep using RL-10-A4?

There was a stockpile of RL-10B's.  A portion of them have been converted to the C engine.
Performance is not significantly reduced.  In fact, it's better for most mission profiles, and a wash for the others.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 12/04/2016 01:15 AM
This is a few weeks old at this point, but I don't think it's been covered on NSF:

Spectrolab Solar Cells to Power Boeing’s Starliner Spacecraft

http://www.compoundsemi.com/spectrolab-solar-cells-power-boeings-starliner-spacecraft/

Quote
[...]Boeing’s solar subsidiary Spectrolab will fabricate the cells that will convert solar energy into more than 2,900 watts of usable electricity that will allow astronauts to complete their journey to the orbiting laboratory. The system also will also produce enough electricity to run the Starliner’s systems while it is docked to the station for about six months at a time.

More or less the same coverage here:

Spectrolab solar cells to power Boeing Starliner spacecraft to ISS

http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2016/nov/spectrolab_161116.shtml

Quote
"The Starliner program needed a highly efficient, high-quality power solution," says John Mulholland, VP & program manager for Boeing's Commercial Crew program. "This is a perfect example of the benefits of 'One Boeing'," he adds.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 12/04/2016 01:38 PM
To put things in perspective, I've added a diagram of the backside of the CST-100 SM. It shows where the panels, shown in above post, go.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 12/28/2016 04:32 PM
Here is a presentation on commercial crew (posted a couple of weeks ago):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zzyuPNEfps
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 12/29/2016 06:05 AM
IDA 3 targeting a late 2017 launch. For CST-100, 80 of the 100 components have been qualified. Finished first series of land landing qualification tests and first series of water landing tests. Full mission simulator delivered Spring 2017. President Obama performed a docking using one of their mission simulators. Spacecraft 2 and 3 will by cycled through Post Certification Mission (PCM) flights. For Dragon 2 did a hold down test to see effect of thrusters against ground. Using four parachutes. Boeing chose land landing for reusability. Unknown loads and salt water intrusion with water landing. For simplicity use parachutes and airbags. For SpaceX a lot of heritage with parachutes on water with Dragon. Ultimate goal is propulsive landing. Impediments to certification. Long and careful process. Take time that requirements were developed well. Intent is understood among parties involved. Meet those requirements, understand intent of requirements, assessed all the hazards and safety to ensure reliable system. Work closely together in partnership, move through those steps and get to something where you feel we're ready to go. Boeing. Bring the NASA team in fully so they get awareness through the design process. The devil is in the details. The requirements are stable. There is a great partnership across the two teams. Working through hundreds of VCNs. Determination of what is enough. How much analysis. How much test. Making sure that is understood for the 100s of requirements. Working through those early to get that agreement. NASA. Its really going to be a team approach. Coming down with the volume of requirements and data.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 12/31/2016 04:37 AM
This is a few weeks old at this point, but I don't think it's been covered on NSF:

Spectrolab Solar Cells to Power Boeing’s Starliner Spacecraft

http://www.compoundsemi.com/spectrolab-solar-cells-power-boeings-starliner-spacecraft/

Quote
[...]Boeing’s solar subsidiary Spectrolab will fabricate the cells that will convert solar energy into more than 2,900 watts of usable electricity that will allow astronauts to complete their journey to the orbiting laboratory. The system also will also produce enough electricity to run the Starliner’s systems while it is docked to the station for about six months at a time.

More or less the same coverage here:

Spectrolab solar cells to power Boeing Starliner spacecraft to ISS

http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2016/nov/spectrolab_161116.shtml

Quote
"The Starliner program needed a highly efficient, high-quality power solution," says John Mulholland, VP & program manager for Boeing's Commercial Crew program. "This is a perfect example of the benefits of 'One Boeing'," he adds.
Spectrolab makes great solar cells, but they're ridiculously expensive. Over $100/Watt. Not a big deal for Starliner, but a problem if you want like several Megawatt. Anyone know who makes them cheaper?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SWGlassPit on 01/03/2017 07:35 PM
Well, they're space-rated, and I would imagine you're not going to see a whole lot of demand for megawatt-class projects using space-rated solar cells.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 01/03/2017 09:06 PM
See below, 4 more commercial crew post-certification missions awarded to each of Boeing and SpaceX:

Mission Awards Secure Commercial Crew Transportation for Coming Years:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/mission-awards-secure-commercial-crew-transportation-for-coming-years
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 01/05/2017 12:24 AM
Oxford Performance Materials Awarded Boeing Contract to Supply 3D-Printed OXFAB® Production Parts for the CST-100 Starliner

Quote
Oxford Performance Materials, Inc. (OPM), a leading advanced materials and additive manufacturing (3D printing) company, has been selected by The Boeing Company to manufacture 3D-printed structures for the Boeing CST-100 Starliner spacecraft, and OPM has begun shipping OXFAB® production parts for installation.

link (https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/01/04/903323/0/en/Oxford-Performance-Materials-Awarded-Boeing-Contract-to-Supply-3D-Printed-OXFAB-Production-Parts-for-the-CST-100-Starliner.html)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 01/12/2017 04:07 AM
Starliner Simulator Arrives in Houston:
https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2017/01/11/starliner-simulator-arrives-in-houston/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 01/17/2017 05:15 PM
This news is somewhat related to the CST-100:

Ars Technica: As leadership departs, NASA quietly moves to buy more Soyuz seats (http://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/nasa-formally-seeks-option-to-buy-additional-soyuz-seats-for-2019/)
Eric Berger wrote an article about NASA planning to buy more Soyuz seats for early 2019, as well as extra seats available in 2017 and 2018. 

He provides a link to the solicitation: PROCUREMENT OF CREW TRANSPORTATION AND RESCUE SERVICES FROM BOEING (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=d4bd5c52373053a6dfb6acd03398978c&tab=core&_cview=0).  Apparently Boeing bought the rights to the available Soyuz seats and is going to resell them to NASA.

Here are some excerpts from the solicitation:
Quote
NASA is considering contracting with The Boeing Company (Boeing) for crew transportation services to and from the International Space Station (ISS) on the Russian Soyuz vehicle. This transportation would be for one crewmember in the Fall of 2017 and one crewmember in the Spring of 2018. NASA is considering purchasing these services from Boeing, without competition, because no other vehicles are currently capable of providing these services in Fall 2017 or Spring 2018. NASA has contracts with two U.S. commercial companies for crew transportation to the ISS. However, these vehicles are still in the developmental stage, and not expected to begin fully operational flights to the ISS until 2019. NASA also is considering an option to acquire crew transportation from Boeing for three crewmembers on the Soyuz in 2019, to ensure the availability of back-up transportation capability in the event the U.S. commercial contractor vehicles are delayed or to augment future ISS operations and research.
...
An agreement was recently reached between the Boeing Company and S.P. Korolev Rocket and Space Public Corporation, Energia ("RSC Energia"), who is the manufacturer of the Soyuz spacecraft and has the legal rights to sell the seats and associated services. As a part of this agreement, Energia agreed to provide to Boeing two specifically identified seats on the Soyuz spacecraft for long-duration travel to and from the ISS, one on a flight to occur in the Fall 2017 timeframe and another on a flight to occur in the Spring 2018 timeframe. Additionally, Energia provided Boeing three additional specifically identified seats in the Spring 2019 timeframe on two Soyuz spacecraft. Finally, Boeing and RSC Energia agreed that each of these five seats will include a launch of an individual to and from the ISS, including all services normally provided during launches to ISS. Boeing and RSC Energia have represented that Boeing has the full rights to these seats and can sell them to any third party.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AnalogMan on 01/18/2017 08:27 PM
Starliner STA Arrives in California for Testing
January 18, 2017 - Steven Siceloff

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft will experience a variety of tremendous internal and external forces during missions to and from the International Space Station.  When the Starliner launches in 2018, it won’t be the first time the spacecraft has encountered these forces. That is because Boeing built a Structural Test Article that will experience the rigors of spaceflight in a test facility in an effort to prove the design of the spacecraft. The module was built inside the company’s Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida (top) before it was shipped it across the country to Huntington Beach, California, for testing (right).

It joined test versions of the service module, the launch vehicle adapter truss structure and other hardware that make up the upper stage of the United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket. Testing of the article began shortly after it arrived to Boeing’s Test and Evaluation facility. The first test involved pressurizing the interior of the crew module to 1.5 times the maximum pressure a Starliner spacecraft would face during ascent, orbit, re-entry and landing for missions to and from the International Space Station.

Boeing’s facilities in southern California are outfitted with numerous test chambers that routinely evaluate spacecraft and other vehicles in a variety of environments to make sure they can handle the demands of flight.

Boeing is building the next generation of human space systems in partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program to take astronauts to and from the International Space Station. The Starliner will launch atop an Atlas V rocket from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2017/01/18/starliner-sta-arrives-in-california-for-testing (https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2017/01/18/starliner-sta-arrives-in-california-for-testing)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 01/19/2017 06:20 AM
Starliner STA Arrives in California for Testing
January 18, 2017 - Steven Siceloff

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft will experience a variety of tremendous internal and external forces during missions to and from the International Space Station.  When the Starliner launches in 2018, it won’t be the first time the spacecraft has encountered these forces. That is because Boeing built a Structural Test Article that will experience the rigors of spaceflight in a test facility in an effort to prove the design of the spacecraft. The module was built inside the company’s Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida (top) before it was shipped it across the country to Huntington Beach, California, for testing (right).

It joined test versions of the service module, the launch vehicle adapter truss structure and other hardware that make up the upper stage of the United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket. Testing of the article began shortly after it arrived to Boeing’s Test and Evaluation facility. The first test involved pressurizing the interior of the crew module to 1.5 times the maximum pressure a Starliner spacecraft would face during ascent, orbit, re-entry and landing for missions to and from the International Space Station.

Boeing’s facilities in southern California are outfitted with numerous test chambers that routinely evaluate spacecraft and other vehicles in a variety of environments to make sure they can handle the demands of flight.

Boeing is building the next generation of human space systems in partnership with NASA’s Commercial Crew Program to take astronauts to and from the International Space Station. The Starliner will launch atop an Atlas V rocket from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2017/01/18/starliner-sta-arrives-in-california-for-testing (https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2017/01/18/starliner-sta-arrives-in-california-for-testing)
Images from the article below:
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: okan170 on 01/23/2017 04:56 PM
Looks like Boeing will be doing a reveal event for the Starliner space suit in 48 hours.

https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/823564001024049152
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: sghill on 01/24/2017 03:08 PM
Onesies!

 ;D
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 01/24/2017 07:22 PM
Onesies!

 ;D
Nope. Just a fancy outer shell over what is basically a modified version of the shuttle-era ACES suit. Boeing has not bothered to develop something completely new. Come to think of it, the early prototypes of the ACES suit were blue as well. Just look up some old STS-26 images.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/25/2017 01:08 PM
Deary me, Boeing really need to get with the times on this.

They are going to reveal it on Washinging Post's Facebook page (if you can even access facebook at work), and you have to log in to see it.

More
TODAY: Join #Boeing and @WashingtonPost at @NASAKennedy
 for a big @Commercial_Crew reveal 11 EST https://www.facebook.com/washingtonpost/videos/10154694834547293/ … #BoeingSpace

No thanks. Anyone who can, please screenshot.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/25/2017 01:36 PM
HA! We're back on...

@BoeingDefense

Following
 More
@NASASpaceflight When it goes live a 11 a.m. EST it is on the Washington Post Facebook page available to everyone.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/25/2017 03:02 PM
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/25/2017 03:10 PM
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/25/2017 03:26 PM
Pad Abort White Sands, Jan 2018. Uncrewed flight, June 2018. Two crew test, Aug 2018. Then into ISS contracted flights...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 01/25/2017 03:48 PM
And that confirms it. Modified (specifically: simplified) version of ACES. The simplified helmet assembly very much resembles the helmet on the Russian Sokol suit.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/25/2017 04:01 PM
Sim:
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/25/2017 04:14 PM
That was excellent, thank you Washington Post! 8)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jarnu on 01/25/2017 04:34 PM
Video available in boeing webpage: http://www.boeing.com/features/2017/01/space-suit-01-17.page
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: old_sellsword on 01/25/2017 04:54 PM
Lots of new pictures of the suit and Starliner mockup on KSC's Flickr page. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/25/2017 05:11 PM
New thread for the spacesuit:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42133.0
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Orbiter on 01/25/2017 09:43 PM
Washington Post did a live stream a few minutes ago on SLC-41 with Astronaut Sunita Williams. Includes video inside the CST-100 white room:

https://www.facebook.com/washingtonpost/videos/10154701325887293/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/26/2017 01:34 AM
Although not necessary on the CST-100 I really miss the cockpit windows and the views from the shuttle days... :(
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/26/2017 12:46 PM
I think Fergie wants to bring that flag back personally... ;)
Title: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Star One on 02/03/2017 08:07 PM
Exclusive: Boeing's space taxis to use more than 600 3D-printed parts

Quote
Boeing Co has hired a small company to make about 600 3D-printed parts for its Starliner space taxis, meaning key components in the United States manned space program are being built with additive manufacturing.

The company, privately held Oxford Performance Materials, will announce a $10 million strategic investment from advanced materials company Hexcel Corp as early as Friday, adding to $15 million Hexcel invested in May and lifting Hexcel's equity stake to 16.1 percent, Oxford and Hexcel said.

Quote
Oxford's parts will help Boeing lower costs and save weight on each seven-seat capsule, compared with traditional metal and plastic manufacturing, Larry Varholak, president of Oxford's aerospace business, said in an interview.

"What really makes it valuable to NASA and Boeing is this material is as strong as aluminum at significantly less weight," he said. Boeing said the weight savings on Oxford's parts is about 60 percent compared with traditional manufacturing.

Boeing is building three Starliner capsules under a $4.2 billion NASA contract. Entrepreneur Elon Musk's SpaceX is building a competing capsule under a $2.6 billion NASA contract.

Oxford has already shipped parts for the Starliner. The plastic it uses, known as PEKK, also resists fire and radiation, according to Oxford. Boeing declined to say how much of the capsule Oxford's parts represent.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN15I1HW
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rayleighscatter on 02/18/2017 01:14 AM
From KSC's flickr:
Quote
Inside Boeing’s Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida members of the news media view work platforms that will be used in manufacturing Boeing's CST-100 Starliner spacecraft for flight tests and crew rotation missions to the International Space Station as part of the agency's Commercial Crew Program.

Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Targeteer on 02/21/2017 12:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsKNv4HAbk
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 02/21/2017 07:47 AM
Old video. Was published 2 years ago. Was already linked in one of the Starliner threads here.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 02/25/2017 07:13 PM
The CST-100 was featured last night on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUO5HO0C8qc
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/26/2017 01:18 AM
That was great!
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AndyX on 02/26/2017 09:04 PM
Starliner manifest news.
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/02/commercial-rotation-us-segment-crew-increase-early/

Awesome feature article by Pete Harding, with cool L2 renders via Nathan Koga.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 02/27/2017 02:54 PM
NASA quitely announced that it bought Soyuz seats for 2017 and 2018 from Boeing last week:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/additional-crew-flights-boost-space-station-science-and-research/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clongton on 02/27/2017 07:50 PM
NASA quitely announced that it bought Soyuz seats for 2017 and 2018 from Boeing last week:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/additional-crew-flights-boost-space-station-science-and-research/

Does that mean Boeing will fly that many fewer Commercial Crew missions because NASA paid them off for them?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ReturnTrajectory on 02/27/2017 08:04 PM
No.  It means that NASA just used the Boeing contract for ISS as a vehicle.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 02/27/2017 08:54 PM
NASA quitely announced that it bought Soyuz seats for 2017 and 2018 from Boeing last week:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/additional-crew-flights-boost-space-station-science-and-research/

Does that mean Boeing will fly that many fewer Commercial Crew missions because NASA paid them off for them?
These flights are part of Boeing's settlement in court over Sea Launch: Boeing is then in turn handing them over to NASA for ride opportunities for additional USOS crew members.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yg1968 on 03/01/2017 02:16 PM
NASA quitely announced that it bought Soyuz seats for 2017 and 2018 from Boeing last week:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/additional-crew-flights-boost-space-station-science-and-research/

Does that mean Boeing will fly that many fewer Commercial Crew missions because NASA paid them off for them?

NASA already ordered 6 post-certification missions from each provider. So that still stands.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rockets4life97 on 03/02/2017 12:18 AM
Does an Atlas V/Vulcan and a Starliner have the capability to do a moon flyby as recently announced for the FH and Crew Dragon?



Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 03/02/2017 01:20 AM
Does an Atlas V/Vulcan and a Starliner have the capability to do a moon flyby as recently announced for the FH and Crew Dragon?

CST-100 seems to be a bit heavier (13-14mt?), and Atlas V with 5 boosters only has a capacity of ~9mt to GTO (TLI requires more delta-v), so I don't think so.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 03/05/2017 01:39 PM
IIRC, Boeing said CST is not designed for BEO missions, in particular it lacks a lunar return capable heatshield.

Related: not clear to me if CST-100 has positive power balance with the solar array "mission kit" installed. This thing is pure LEO taxi.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 03/07/2017 07:08 AM
IIRC, Boeing said CST is not designed for BEO missions, in particular it lacks a lunar return capable heatshield.

Given enough money, I'm sure Boeing could design a Lunar capable heat shield for CST-100.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The man in the can on 03/10/2017 09:04 PM
Parachutes test video!!!

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/campaign-tests-parachutes-designed-to-provide-astronauts-a-soft-landing (https://www.nasa.gov/feature/campaign-tests-parachutes-designed-to-provide-astronauts-a-soft-landing)

Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: The man in the can on 03/10/2017 09:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJzpIZV0Kcw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJzpIZV0Kcw)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 03/11/2017 01:57 AM
Really enjoyed this video, especially how they handled the audio. Much more fun to listen to the wind and hardware than some lame voice-over.

Hope the tests continue to go well.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 03/11/2017 02:45 PM
Really enjoyed this video, especially how they handled the audio. Much more fun to listen to the wind and hardware than some lame voice-over.

Hope the tests continue to go well.
Agreed. Much more fun to enjoy this than the fancy PR stuff. Hardware being put to the test is a much better sight than some talking head.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/13/2017 01:38 PM
Article on chutes and ASAP worrying about RD-180:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/03/chute-tests-starliner-asap-worry-rd-180-certification/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: larmeyers on 03/13/2017 01:51 PM
Apologies if this is an old topic, but is there any info regarding why Starliner needs to jettison its heat shield (at 4,500 ft)?  Am I correct that both Dragon 2 and Orion will land with theirs?  thanks...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: yokem55 on 03/13/2017 02:30 PM
Apologies if this is an old topic, but is there any info regarding why Starliner needs to jettison its heat shield (at 4,500 ft)?  Am I correct that both Dragon 2 and Orion will land with theirs?  thanks...
It probably has to do with being able to deploy the airbags and allow for a slower touchdown.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Roy_H on 03/13/2017 03:34 PM
Apologies if this is an old topic, but is there any info regarding why Starliner needs to jettison its heat shield (at 4,500 ft)?  Am I correct that both Dragon 2 and Orion will land with theirs?  thanks...
It probably has to do with being able to deploy the airbags and allow for a slower touchdown.
That and there are rocket nozzles for slowing down just before landing. These nozzles are blocked by the heat shield.
Orion lands in water and Dragon has their rockets on the side so they do not need to jettison their heat shields.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Roy_H on 03/13/2017 03:47 PM
I am surprised that the Russian made RD180 engines are still an issue. All the plans for making them were delivered many years ago at the start of the contract. They have proven to be highly reliable, so what is the issue?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: baldusi on 03/13/2017 07:27 PM
I am surprised that the Russian made RD180 engines are still an issue. All the plans for making them were delivered many years ago at the start of the contract. They have proven to be highly reliable, so what is the issue?
ITAR and the equivalent Russian laws. Any exchange requires an inquire for each set of questions. And you can get fined even from asking a question that might divulge that you know something that's not common knowledge. Besides, they had not all the data. Some things like anti corrosion treatment on the nozzle were not included. And the whole Russian system engineering is very different from the US. So asking for their paper trail to match NASA's expectations is a gruesome prospect.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Prettz on 03/13/2017 11:33 PM
I am surprised that the Russian made RD180 engines are still an issue. All the plans for making them were delivered many years ago at the start of the contract. They have proven to be highly reliable, so what is the issue?
ITAR and the equivalent Russian laws. Any exchange requires an inquire for each set of questions. And you can get fined even from asking a question that might divulge that you know something that's not common knowledge. Besides, they had not all the data. Some things like anti corrosion treatment on the nozzle were not included. And the whole Russian system engineering is very different from the US. So asking for their paper trail to match NASA's expectations is a gruesome prospect.
Why would NASA need to know such details as those in order to declare an engine man-rated? Why is what they already know not enough?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 03/14/2017 04:18 AM
Article on chutes and ASAP worrying about RD-180:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/03/chute-tests-starliner-asap-worry-rd-180-certification/

It would be nice if there's an explanation of what "SureSep separation ring" is and what it separates...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: brickmack on 03/14/2017 03:58 PM
Article on chutes and ASAP worrying about RD-180:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/03/chute-tests-starliner-asap-worry-rd-180-certification/

It would be nice if there's an explanation of what "SureSep separation ring" is and what it separates...

I believe it is this https://www.google.com/patents/EP0273061A1?cl=en&dq=Vincent+Noel&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAp-Lgt9bSAhUU4mMKHew8AkoQ6AEIGjAA (https://www.google.com/patents/EP0273061A1?cl=en&dq=Vincent+Noel&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAp-Lgt9bSAhUU4mMKHew8AkoQ6AEIGjAA). McDonnel Douglas had "SureSep" trademarked around this time, and I found mention of a Vincent Noel involved in that project, he's listed as an inventor on this patent. Boeing probably acquired it with the rest of McDonnell Douglas and kept the name.

Now, on what is actually being separated. This (https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/Boeing-Commercial-Crew-tagged.pdf) shows what is apparently a SureSep test unit, and it looks to have a fairly large diameter, so I'd guess its the interface between Atlas and Starliner, or the CM and SM, or heat shield and CM structure. This guys LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberto-castaneda-b1375341) lists him as being involved in both SureSEP testing and the Starliner-Atlas interface, so I'd wager its for that connection
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 04/03/2017 04:05 AM
Some twitter videos. Anyone got a good tool/process for scraping and archiving this kind of stuff?

Video of Crew Access Arm test (swinging back into position in a hurry)

https://twitter.com/AKolomiets/status/844279239289593860

Testing the slidewire escape system:

https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/848679836247871490
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/03/2017 05:55 AM
Quote
United Launch Alliance Completes Crew Emergency Egress System
ULA and Terra-Nova Zipline provide NASA and commercial astronauts with safe, new generation egress option 

Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Fla., (April 2, 2017) – The final test of the Emergency Egress System (EES) was conducted recently, signifying the completion of another United Launch Alliance (ULA) milestone supporting NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. The EES was developed in support of Boeing’s Starliner crew capsule and is a means of rapid egress for astronauts in case of an anomaly.

“ULA is absolutely focused on the safety of the crews we will be supporting, and, although we hope to never use it, we are excited to announce the Emergency Egress System is fully operational,” said Gary Wentz, vice president of Human & Commercial Services. “Through our partnership with Terra-Nova, a company that designs and builds zip lines for recreational use, a modified, off-the-shelf product has been designed and constructed to meet our needs and reduce costs, while maintaining reliability and safety.”

The egress cables are situated on level 12 of the Crew Access Tower (CAT), 172 feet above the Space Launch Complex 41 pad deck at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, and will allow the crew to evacuate the CAT quickly to a landing zone more than 1,340 feet from the launch vehicle. The EES can accommodate up to 20 personnel, including ground crew and flight crew.

Terra-Nova, LLC (makers of the ZipRider® Hybrid) offered a commercially developed EES based on their “off-the-shelf,” patented designs. The ZipRider was easily adaptable to ULA’s specific needs, while offering an unmatched safety record, and providing the best overall value.

In just 30 seconds, the rider reaches top speeds of 40 mph. The riders control their speed by releasing pressure on the handles, with the ability to glide to a gentle stop at the landing zone. There are 30 feet of springs on each cable located in the landing area to gradually slow a rider down if they forget to brake. Terra-Nova will install a training system located north of the CAT for riders to practice on before final training on the operational EES. 

The Boeing Company is developing Starliner and selected ULA’s Atlas V rocket for human-rated spaceflight to the International Space Station. ULA’s Atlas V has launched more than 70 times with a 100 percent mission success rate.

“Crew safety is paramount, and the ULA Emergency Egress System hits the mark for an effective yet simple system that is adapted from other commercial applications,” said Chris Ferguson, Boeing director of Starliner Crew and Mission Systems and a former NASA astronaut. “We look forward to spaceflight operations next year knowing that every measure to protect the flight and ground crew has been employed."

With more than a century of combined heritage, United Launch Alliance is the nation’s most experienced and reliable launch service provider. ULA has successfully delivered more than 115 satellites to orbit that aid meteorologists in tracking severe weather, unlock the mysteries of our solar system, provide critical capabilities for troops in the field and enable personal device-based GPS navigation.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/ula-completes-crew-emergency-egress-system.aspx (http://www.ulalaunch.com/ula-completes-crew-emergency-egress-system.aspx)

Edit: add 4th picture showing handles used to control descent speed
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/03/2017 05:59 AM
Quote
Astronauts & ground crew can quickly escape the #Starliner launch site by sliding down egress cables to the ground. More new photos to come.

https://twitter.com/commercial_crew/status/848673605517029376 (https://twitter.com/commercial_crew/status/848673605517029376)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/03/2017 01:08 PM
Article on that, plus some history, a SLS update on EES and the required chuckle at the Roller Coaster ;D

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/04/slc-41-completes-ees-starliner-missions/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/03/2017 04:12 PM
Quote
Final qualification, loads analyses. Flight design. Final assembly. Preparing to launch #Starliner in 2018.

https://twitter.com/ulalaunch/status/848929369573785602 (https://twitter.com/ulalaunch/status/848929369573785602)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLlZJLWEm9E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLlZJLWEm9E)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 04/04/2017 02:48 AM
Boeing Starliner Emergency Egress System Test

collectSPACE

Published on Apr 3, 2017
http://collectSPACE.com — A team of engineers recently tested a newly installed emergency egress system at Space Launch Complex 41 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station to prepare for crew launches for NASA's Commercial Crew Program. Boeing's CST-100 Starliner spacecraft and United Launch Alliance's Atlas V rocket, which will boost astronauts to the International Space Station, will have many safely elements built into the systems.

The Starliner emergency egress system operates a lot like a zip line, with four egress cables connecting at level 12 of the crew access tower to a landing zone about 1,300 feet away from the launch vehicle. Five individual seats on four separate lines can transport up to 20 people off the tower in the unlikely event there is an emergency on the launch pad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C44Yt1GPQ9E?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C44Yt1GPQ9E
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clevelas on 04/04/2017 05:02 PM
I'm trying to envision a situation where that system is needed.  I would want it to go WAY faster than that if I were in an emergency.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 04/04/2017 05:55 PM
I'm trying to envision a situation where that system is needed.  I would want it to go WAY faster than that if I were in an emergency.

Indeed, but perhaps this was just a first test run.  I expected something twice as fast.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ReturnTrajectory on 04/04/2017 06:03 PM
Likely there is some sort of brake that can control the speed. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SWGlassPit on 04/04/2017 07:02 PM
I'm trying to envision a situation where that system is needed.  I would want it to go WAY faster than that if I were in an emergency.

Example made up off the top of my head: hypergol leak while hatch is open.  Not necessarily an immediate boom, but toxic atmosphere, and you want to get out of there expeditiously.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 04/04/2017 07:05 PM
I'm trying to envision a situation where that system is needed.  I would want it to go WAY faster than that if I were in an emergency.

Slow leak.
A problem with GSE

Any situation where an abort off the pad is over doing it.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 04/04/2017 08:09 PM
This slidewire system actually reminds me of the one at Launch Complex 34 during the early Apollo missions. Not the basket version, but the type where the astronauts hooked their suits to the slidewire before escaping.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: arachnitect on 04/06/2017 02:19 AM
http://beyondearth.com/all-systems-are-go-boeings-cst-100-starliner-spacecraft-powers-on-for-the-first-time/

pad abort vehicle powered up
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: okan170 on 04/06/2017 08:42 PM
Rocket Launch 360: Atlas V Starliner

3,2,1...liftoff! Take a trip to the International Space Station aboard Boeing's Starliner capsule after launch on the United Launch Alliance Atlas V. Walk across the launch pad, experience the view from the top of the Crew Access Tower and get ready to give your go as you prepare for launch and your time on station. Go Atlas V! Go Centaur! Go Starliner!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvnPiuRiwl0
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 04/07/2017 06:04 AM
Nice video, but PMA-3 is at the wrong location!
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SWGlassPit on 04/07/2017 05:45 PM
I mean, if you're gonna be that pedantic, the solar arrays won't be pointed like that either.  They'd be feathered to avoid being plumed by visiting vehicle thrusters.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: obi-wan on 04/07/2017 07:29 PM
Well, how about real mistakes, like saying you'll be at ISS "a few minutes" after orbit insertion? (and couldn't Boeing spring for more than one suited subject on Starliner for launch?)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/07/2017 09:51 PM
Starliner update via NASA Status - via Chris Gebhardt:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/04/commercial-crew-tight-achievable-timeline-2018/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 04/08/2017 08:17 AM
An engineer works the switch to power on a Boeing CST-100 Starliner spacecraft inside Boeing's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. This was the first time "Spacecraft 1," as the individual Starliner is known, was powered up. It is being assembled for use during a pad abort test that will demonstrate the Starliners' ability to lift astronauts out of danger in the unlikely event of an emergency. Later flight tests will demonstrate Starliners in orbital missions to the station without a crew, and then with astronauts aboard. The flight tests will preview the crew rotation missions future Starliners will perform as they take up to four astronauts at a time to the orbiting laboratory in order to enhance the research taking place there.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 04/08/2017 08:17 AM
An engineer monitors a Boeing CST-100 Starliner spacecraft inside Boeing's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. This was the first time "Spacecraft 1," as the individual Starliner is known, was powered up. It is being assembled for use during a pad abort test that will demonstrate the Starliners' ability to lift astronauts out of danger in the unlikely event of an emergency. Later flight tests will demonstrate Starliners in orbital missions to the station without a crew, and then with astronauts aboard. The flight tests will preview the crew rotation missions future Starliners will perform as they take up to four astronauts at a time to the orbiting laboratory in order to enhance the research taking place there.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/12/2017 05:31 PM
Saw this on twitter and couldn't find a ULA Starliner patch on the forum:

Quote
Newest mission patch for @ulalaunch's #AtlasV launching @Boeing's #Starliner capsule! #welaunchedthat

https://twitter.com/ularocketman/status/852197019829522432 (https://twitter.com/ularocketman/status/852197019829522432)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 04/13/2017 04:46 PM
Well, how about real mistakes, like saying you'll be at ISS "a few minutes" after orbit insertion? (and couldn't Boeing spring for more than one suited subject on Starliner for launch?)

You make a good point. How is it possible for Starliner to reach the ISS similar to Soyuz's 6-hour profile?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/13/2017 05:18 PM
Saw this on twitter and couldn't find a ULA Starliner patch on the forum:

Quote
Newest mission patch for @ulalaunch's #AtlasV launching @Boeing's #Starliner capsule! #welaunchedthat

https://twitter.com/ularocketman/status/852197019829522432 (https://twitter.com/ularocketman/status/852197019829522432)

You are a Twitter guru! Only just noticed it now Tory's RT'ed it. I like it!
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2017 05:58 PM
Quote
Aerojet Rocketdyne Successfully Completes Qualification Tests on Reusable Engine to Support Next Era of Human Spaceflight from the United States

SACRAMENTO, Calif., April 20, 2017 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Aerojet Rocketdyne, Inc., a subsidiary of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:AJRD), has successfully completed hot-fire qualification tests of an engine that demonstrates the ability to meet reusability requirements for Boeing's Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner crew module propulsion system. The tests were conducted on Aerojet Rocketdyne's MR-104J hydrazine monopropellant engine in Redmond, Washington. For NASA service missions to the International Space Station, Boeing's Starliner spacecraft will carry up to four astronauts and time-critical scientific research.

"Our engineers have incorporated a unique design that will allow the MR-104 engine to be used on multiple missions, providing the reliability, cost-efficiency and reusability our customer needs to be competitive in the current commercial space environment," said Aerojet Rocketdyne CEO and President Eileen Drake. "We look forward to delivering the engines for the crew module and continuing our proud heritage of enabling astronauts to fly to the International Space Station from U.S. soil."

The Starliner crew module propulsion system will use 12 MR-104J engines for reaction control to orient the vehicle during re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere. Prior to re-entry, attitude control is provided by the Service Module Engines, also provided by Aerojet Rocketdyne.

The MR-104J, designed by Aerojet Rocketdyne, was developed and tested under the company's Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) subcontract to Boeing. Similar to other reaction control system engines, the MR-104J includes additional features to increase redundancy that meet critical requirements and improved strength to withstand multiple shocks at operating temperatures. The engine upgrades also provide reusability for Boeing as it certifies Starliner crew modules for multiple missions.

Under the CCtCap subcontract to Boeing, Aerojet Rocketdyne will provide propulsion system hardware that includes Crew Module Reaction Control engines; Launch Abort Engines, Orbital Maneuvering and Attitude Control thrusters, and Service Module Reaction Control System thrusters. Boeing will assemble propulsion hardware into the Starliner spacecraft at its Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

Aerojet Rocketdyne is an innovative company delivering solutions that create value for its customers in the aerospace and defense markets. The company is a world-recognized aerospace and defense leader that provides propulsion and energetics to the space, missile defense and strategic systems, tactical systems and armaments areas, in support of domestic and international markets. Additional information about Aerojet Rocketdyne can be obtained by visiting our websites at www.Rocket.com and www.AerojetRocketdyne.com.

http://www.rocket.com/article/aerojet-rocketdyne-successfully-completes-qualification-tests-reusable-engine-support-next (http://www.rocket.com/article/aerojet-rocketdyne-successfully-completes-qualification-tests-reusable-engine-support-next)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 05/17/2017 02:42 AM
Boeing Begins a New Era in Space

Boeing
Published on May 16, 2017


We are at the edge of a new era in human spaceflight. Boeings CST-100 Starliner, set to launch in 2018, will be one of the first commercial space capsules to take people to and from low-Earth orbit. Will you be a future passenger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9K7B4xsQOU?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9K7B4xsQOU
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/19/2017 02:45 PM
Not a lot of detail I'm afraid:

Quote
Tim Robinson‏ @RAeSTimR 5m5 minutes ago

1st Boeing CST-100 Starliner in construction here at KSC.

https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/865576751635861504 (https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/865576751635861504)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Sotar on 05/25/2017 10:12 PM
I'm not an engineer or scientist so forgive me / delete my post if it is in the wrong place, or the answer is obvious and I just need to go search more.

Why is  hydrazine monopropellant, still being used?  My understanding is that it is pretty toxic.  Perhaps it is relative inexpensive, thus gives very good thrust / control for the cost?


I'm guessing that we just haven't developed propellant / engines that would be as cost effective and as usable.    :(


-S
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: edkyle99 on 05/26/2017 03:18 AM
I'm not an engineer or scientist so forgive me / delete my post if it is in the wrong place, or the answer is obvious and I just need to go search more.

Why is  hydrazine monopropellant, still being used?  My understanding is that it is pretty toxic.  Perhaps it is relative inexpensive, thus gives very good thrust / control for the cost?


I'm guessing that we just haven't developed propellant / engines that would be as cost effective and as usable.    :(


-S
No igniter is needed.  Almost unlimited restarts are possible.  Open a valve and pass N2H4 through a catalyst and, presto, instant reliable relatively cool thrust with no moving parts except for a valve or two.  Put these thrusters on a satellite and they'll run for 15 or 20 years, maybe longer.  See Voyager.  They'll keep thrusting.

Wikipedia gets this one right.  It says "[e]ngineers choose monopropellant systems when the need for simplicity and reliability outweigh the need for high delivered impulse".  Think about your life depending on that thruster, then underline that word reliability a few times.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 05/30/2017 10:55 PM
Boeing Tests Starliners Seats

Boeing
Published on May 30, 2017

As Boeing continues to work toward launches of the CST-100 Starliner in 2018, teams tested the spacecraft's seats in a lab to ensure astronauts will land safely on dry land after the Starliner returns to Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqfvpei0VaM?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqfvpei0VaM
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 05/31/2017 06:50 AM
Test Dummies Provide Valuable Data for Starliner's Seat Design

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2017/05/25/test-dummies-provide-valuable-data-for-starliners-seat-design/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 05/31/2017 01:59 PM
Copying across relevant Commercial Crew Program info from today's non-broadcast media event.

Q from Marcia Dunn: Timelines for uncrewed and crewed?

Kathy: Contracts state end of 2017 for uncrewed for SpaceX and late-2nd quarter '18 for crewed.  Lots of work left on this.  Will work over next few months to finalize schedule.

For Boeing, May for uncrewed and August for crew.


Q: What work remains to cert abort systems and human-rating both LVs.

A: Already worked through V&V plan for cert for transport and abort systems.  Right now, working through final model results that come through in testing to close the requirements.



Q: What are the milestones coming up?  And where are high-alt aborts currently scheduled?

A: CCP contracts DID NOT mandate uncrewed test flights.  That's something that Spx and Boeing wanted to do on top of the CCP contract requirements.

High alt abort tests.  Each provider developed their own schedule. 

Boeing will do full-up pad abort test NET 1st Q of 2018.


Q from me: What's the current the LOC gap - current number?  Final aim and how that's changed since initial benchmarks?

A: History... after STS-107, what was LOC number for Shuttle.  It was 1/100.  At same time, ppl were pulling together the CCP numbers.  NASA wanted to get to 10x better than Shuttle.  We've learned a lot over the last 10 years working with the requirement.  Lots learned with Orion, where they learned that 1/1,000 was not credible.  We learned the doing probabilistic assessment required understanding and giving value to LOC elements.  And that's very very difficult.  AT beginning of CCP, there were questions about what was needed and how to make trades.

We chose to use the LOC number as one part of a suite of tools for all sorts of safety requirements... with safety review process compared to performance requirements like oxygen % in cabin and ability to get crew out of capsule in 90 secs.

So as we've working, we've been working to get all of that and the rankings for the contributors to LOC as a way to focus on highest risk items to program. But what's become obvious is that the data sets to run assessments on that we simply don't have.  The certainty bars were high, but as we dug down, we realized that aiming for a number wasn't enough, we had to understand what those numbers were telling us. 

NOW, we starting to understand that that LOC gap given as requirement is going to VERY HARD to meet.  Don't know where we'll end up.  But from agency standpoint, where there are differences in the numbers, we're learning and are happy.

Number might not match, but process and numbers and safety processes are exactly where I want them to be.

I'm very happy that we want through the whole list and as a joint team said "There's nothing we would change in the vehicle designs to change where the LOC number is right now."


James Dean: When do you expect to chose who goes first?

A: Not ready yet.  Gerst has trained me well.  "No decision before it's time."  Healthy competition going on here.  Depends on who's ready and when.  We get through an uncrewed demo, and if there's a problem, things have to change.  We're simultaneously preparing for the worst AND the best.  We don't want to hold back a provided that's ready to go.

Dean: How does spacing of flight works?

A: For operational, once we see where they are, we'll figure it out.  Ideally, we'd like six-month rotations. Big struggle right now is making sure we're ready with both, and then figuring out the rotation dance of the manifest.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 05/31/2017 06:08 PM
Why is  hydrazine monopropellant, still being used?  My understanding is that it is pretty toxic.  Perhaps it is relative inexpensive, thus gives very good thrust / control for the cost?

I'm guessing that we just haven't developed propellant / engines that would be as cost effective and as usable.    :(

No igniter is needed.  Almost unlimited restarts are possible.  Open a valve and pass N2H4 through a catalyst and, presto, instant reliable relatively cool thrust with no moving parts except for a valve or two.  Put these thrusters on a satellite and they'll run for 15 or 20 years, maybe longer.  See Voyager.  They'll keep thrusting.

Wikipedia gets this one right.  It says "[e]ngineers choose monopropellant systems when the need for simplicity and reliability outweigh the need for high delivered impulse".  Think about your life depending on that thruster, then underline that word reliability a few times.

 - Ed Kyle

Sorry Ed Kyle, I think your reply is incomplete.
There are other monopropalent, let my try to explain why hydrazine is prefered above other mono propallents.

High Test Peroxide (HTP | H2O2) works the same as hydrazine, only it is far less toxic.
If I'm not mistaken, there are two drawbacks related to HTP that are the reason why the space industry, for now, prefers Hydrazine thrusters above HTP.

1) In the early days of the space industry HTP and hydrazine competed with each other. HTP lost because the efficiency of the cathalist decreased with burntime. Hydrazine did not have this problem or they solved it early on. Hydrazine has a bit higher ISP, and also density ISP (if I'm not mistaken). This lead the space industry  to use hydrazine and drop HTP.
2) If I'm not mistaken, the problems with the durability of HTP cathalist packs has bean solved recently (several years ago). The problem is that the HTP engines havn't been flight tested.
Hydrazine is space proven technology (TRL9). If I'm not mistaken, HTP thrusters havn't been used in space jet. They have been ground tested so they are TRL6/7 (right?)

With human space flight Nasa demands the use of proven technology, thus Hydrazine.
Nitrogen and butane mono propallent thrusters have far lower ISP then hydrazine.
Green mono propallents are new, are far more expensive and have only been used a couple of times.
So human spaceflight sticks with hydrazine until HTP or green mono propallents have more flight experience (TRL9).

Only for hydrazine there are multiple supliers that can deliver thrusters in all thrust classes. And also tanks and pluming for hydrazine is widely available.  The stability and durability of HTP and green mono propallent systems still has to be proven.

I also hope, HTP and green mono propallent systems mature soon,  so hydrazine can be replaced.

Edit: I forgot to mention that SpaceX Dragon v2 also uses hydrazine monopropellant thrusters.
(Super) Draco
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 05/31/2017 06:15 PM

1) In the early days of the space industry HTP and hydrazine competed with each other. HTP lost because the efficiency of the cathalist decreased with burntime. Hydrazine did not have this problem or they solved it early on. Hydrazine has a bit higher ISP, and also density ISP (if I'm not mistaken). This lead the space industry  to use hydrazine and drop HTP.
2) If I'm not mistaken, the problems with the durability of HTP cathalist packs has bean solved recently (several years ago). The problem is that the HTP engines havn't been flight tested.
Hydrazine is space proven technology (TRL9). If I'm not mistaken, HTP thrusters havn't been used in space jet. They have been ground tested so they are TRL6/7 (right?)


HTP has long term storage issues.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 05/31/2017 06:25 PM
HTP has long term storage issues.

If I'm not mistaken, views differ on this one.  link  (http://www.aerospace-technology.com/news/newsnammo-completes-exposure-and-compatibility-tests-for-its-green-propulsion-subsystem-4718418)
There are a lot of different grades of HTP. It's always a solution with water. I've read that higher grades tend to be more stable.
Doesn't NASA somewere have a tank where they have stored HTP at 4deg celcius for multiple decades. The HTP in that tank is stil stable.
But I'm far from an expert on this, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: envy887 on 05/31/2017 07:57 PM
... SpaceX Dragon v2 also uses hydrazine monopropellant thrusters.
(Super) Draco

Draco and Super Draco use MMH oxidized by NTO, not hydrazine monoprop.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: brickmack on 06/01/2017 01:37 AM
Soyuz uses HTP for the descent module RCS. Its one of the limiting factors for its on-orbit lifetime though
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 06/01/2017 07:27 AM
Doesn't NASA somewere have a tank where they have stored HTP at 4deg celcius for multiple decades. The HTP in that tank is stil stable. But I'm far from an expert on this, please correct me if I'm wrong.

It was 90% HTP stored for 17 years in a vented barrel at 5 C by the FMC Corporation. They measured 90.5% concentration at 17 years.

Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 06/01/2017 08:56 AM
Doesn't NASA somewere have a tank where they have stored HTP at 4deg celcius for multiple decades. The HTP in that tank is stil stable. But I'm far from an expert on this, please correct me if I'm wrong.

It was 90% HTP stored for 17 years in a vented barrel at 5 C by the FMC Corporation. They measured 90.5% concentration at 17 years.
Assuming the measured concentration is correct than that is pretty darn impressive for stored HTP.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/14/2017 05:42 AM
Quote
@torybruno and I conducting demo of the @ulalaunch LC41 #AtlasV #Starliner Emergency Egress System. Crew safety is our top priority! 40+ MPH

https://twitter.com/wentzgary/status/874710428965892097 (https://twitter.com/wentzgary/status/874710428965892097)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: QuantumG on 06/14/2017 05:47 AM
This looks familiar...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/14/2017 06:12 AM
Quote
Best ride in Florida.  #AtlasV #Starliner @BoeingDefense

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/874755135485947904 (https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/874755135485947904)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/18/2017 12:39 PM
Quote
Tory Bruno‏ Verified account @torybruno 2m2 minutes ago

Decatur has completed #Starliner PCM-1's Forward Truss Ring.  Another step closer to sending Astronauts to space from American soil.

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/887289806455160833 (https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/887289806455160833)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/18/2017 05:51 PM
In response to Tory's tweet:

Quote
The cornerstone to the CST-100 Launch Vehicle Adapter. Designed by @ulalaunch engineer Phil Echelman. The Starliner attaches to this ring!

https://twitter.com/tylerrogers82/status/887358505723625474 (https://twitter.com/tylerrogers82/status/887358505723625474)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Norm38 on 07/20/2017 07:52 PM

I'm curious... By what metrics do you think it (Starliner) is more impressive?

Landing location.

A question on this:  The Boeing mission animation shows the landing as being out in the desert somewhere.  What kind of accuracy are they expecting?  To have it come down at a spaceport on a pad or runway would be impressive.  But if it's no more accurate than a water landing, is there really a benefit?
Compared to a water landing, I see two extra mission critical events, with related FEMA issues.  1, heat shield has to detach and can't detach early.  2, airbags have to inflate.

A desert landing prevents salt water intrusion, but that only matters if the capsule is getting reused.  And in the Dragon 2 thread, it was mentioned that NASA hasn't signed off on reuse.  I guess it's cheaper to roll a truck than a recovery ship.  Anything else?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 07/20/2017 11:26 PM
SO what happened to the original posts on this topic where Jim's comments (and who incidentally consistently offers the most worthwhile -- if not always popular -- observations on this site) apparently offered some interesting-looking commentary in response to other comments?  since we get way too little info on starliner to begin with, perhaps forum administrators could cut posters just a little slack rather than editing everything that seems remotely adversarial (especially when it involves something other than cannonizing Elon).
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robby the Robot on 07/20/2017 11:53 PM
A water landing likely involves Navy assets for recovery operations, which may be an issue for non-NASA crew flights (e.g commercial orbital flights or non-NASA space stations). Land landing does not have this issue.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rayleighscatter on 07/21/2017 12:52 AM
A water landing likely involves Navy assets for recovery operations, which may be an issue for non-NASA crew flights (e.g commercial orbital flights or non-NASA space stations). Land landing does not have this issue.
The Navy can't be rented by private companies. Any recovery would be totally private.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Norm38 on 07/21/2017 01:01 AM
SO what happened to the original posts on this topic where Jim's comments (and who incidentally consistently offers the most worthwhile -- if not always popular -- observations on this site) apparently offered some interesting-looking commentary in response to other comments?

I brought the quote over here from the Elon Musk Keynote thread, because my question was OT. You can see the full discussion there.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42615.msg1704384#msg1704384

P.S.  If you click on the hyperlink of a quote, it will take you to the original post.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JazzFan on 07/21/2017 01:24 AM
A water landing likely involves Navy assets for recovery operations, which may be an issue for non-NASA crew flights (e.g commercial orbital flights or non-NASA space stations). Land landing does not have this issue.
The Navy can't be rented by private companies. Any recovery would be totally private.

Odd, the Navy had no problem with renting and allocating military resources and assets for making of movies like, Pearl Harbor (I was there), Top Gun, etc.  I would suggest that the Navy does not make strategic plans around these types of events, but leasing a dock or landing ship may not be out of the question.  Its a matter of how deep pockets SpaceX has.  Even small Navy ships have operating costs well over a million per day.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/21/2017 05:59 AM
A desert landing prevents salt water intrusion, but that only matters if the capsule is getting reused.  And in the Dragon 2 thread, it was mentioned that NASA hasn't signed off on reuse.  I guess it's cheaper to roll a truck than a recovery ship.  Anything else?

Boeing is only building three capsules. Each capsule is designed to be reused up to ten times, so land landing makes that far easier to do.

https://phys.org/news/2016-08-boeing-flightworthy-starliner-crew-taxi.html
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/03/2017 05:37 PM
Quote
Ground control to major console: Mesa completes space dashboard

When two test pilot astronauts head into space aboard Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft, they won’t just be looking out the windows to catch an array of breathtaking views.

It will be all business as they focus on the data coming off a console originally imagined and designed by a team in Houston, and later refined and built by a small team in Mesa, Ariz. The dashboard of displays, instruments and controls will be within arm’s reach of the spacecraft’s commander and pilot, much like the flight deck of a 747 aircraft or the cockpit in an Apache helicopter.

Operating on a rigorous timeline and working through challenges unique to human spaceflight, members of Mesa’s Metals Center of Excellence, Electrical Center of Excellence and engineering organization came together to complete the design and manufacture in just less than a year. This innovation shows the power of pulling ingenuity from across the Boeing network.

The Mesa team also built a console that is hooked up to the Florida Systems Integration Lab, where engineers are running through mission simulations and testing flight software. Building will begin soon on the third and final console for the spacecraft that is slated to fly the uncrewed orbital demonstration mission before it turns around for multiple NASA missions to the space station.

Starliner’s first crew flight test to the International Space Station in 2018 will be Boeing’s first commercial flight transporting humans to space.

http://beyondearth.com/ground-control-to-major-console-mesa-completes-space-dashboard/

Edit: found higher res photo
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Alpha Control on 08/03/2017 09:29 PM
Quote
Ground control to major console: Mesa completes space dashboard

When two test pilot astronauts head into space aboard Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft, they won’t just be looking out the windows to catch an array of breathtaking views.

It will be all business as they focus on the data coming off a console originally imagined and designed by a team in Houston, and later refined and built by a small team in Mesa, Ariz. The dashboard of displays, instruments and controls will be within arm’s reach of the spacecraft’s commander and pilot, much like the flight deck of a 747 aircraft or the cockpit in an Apache helicopter.

Operating on a rigorous timeline and working through challenges unique to human spaceflight, members of Mesa’s Metals Center of Excellence, Electrical Center of Excellence and engineering organization came together to complete the design and manufacture in just less than a year. This innovation shows the power of pulling ingenuity from across the Boeing network.

The Mesa team also built a console that is hooked up to the Florida Systems Integration Lab, where engineers are running through mission simulations and testing flight software. Building will begin soon on the third and final console for the spacecraft that is slated to fly the uncrewed orbital demonstration mission before it turns around for multiple NASA missions to the space station.

Starliner’s first crew flight test to the International Space Station in 2018 will be Boeing’s first commercial flight transporting humans to space.

http://beyondearth.com/ground-control-to-major-console-mesa-completes-space-dashboard/

Edit: found higher res photo

Interesting. The console layout is very "shuttle-like" to me (not a negative; just an observation).  Lots of metal toggle switches, with the two protective bars on either side of a switch (to prevent accidental activation from a gloved hand), along with a number of push buttons. Insets for flat panel screens.

That contrasts with the SpX approach of a mostly touch screen interface, with only a few physical controls.  Have any of the potential pilots expressed a preference one way or the other?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jim on 08/03/2017 09:38 PM

Interesting. The console layout is very "shuttle-like" to me (not a negative; just an observation).  Lots of metal toggle switches, with the two protective bars on either side of a switch (to prevent accidental activation from a gloved hand), along with a number of push buttons. Insets for flat panel screens.

That contrasts with the SpX approach of a mostly touch screen interface, with only a few physical controls.  Have any of the potential pilots expressed a preference one way or the other?

most are circuit breakers or on or off
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: adrianwyard on 08/03/2017 10:20 PM
Is it just me or are these toggle switches confusing? Without the arrow I'm sure everyone would say that 'On' is up - but the arrow next to 'On' points points down, so which is it? Or maybe that's not an arrow?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TrevorMonty on 08/03/2017 10:31 PM
Physical controls are easier to use than touch screens, with gloves and especially during launch.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/03/2017 10:36 PM
Where's the Magic / More Magic switch?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jorge on 08/04/2017 04:54 AM
Is it just me or are these toggle switches confusing? Without the arrow I'm sure everyone would say that 'On' is up - but the arrow next to 'On' points points down, so which is it? Or maybe that's not an arrow?

The arrows indicate a spring-loaded momentary switch that returns to center after being deflected, as opposed to a toggle switch that stays in the deflected position. NASA used this switch label convention on both the space shuttle and ISS, so astronauts are already familiar with it.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 08/04/2017 05:41 AM
Here's the abort switch, that if used will be the first time its tested in flight above ground.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Nomadd on 08/04/2017 05:43 AM
Is it just me or are these toggle switches confusing? Without the arrow I'm sure everyone would say that 'On' is up - but the arrow next to 'On' points points down, so which is it? Or maybe that's not an arrow?

The arrows indicate a spring-loaded momentary switch that returns to center after being deflected, as opposed to a toggle switch that stays in the deflected position. NASA used this switch label convention on both the space shuttle and ISS, so astronauts are already familiar with it.
Been waiting for you to come around Jorge. Me and lots of others wish it was more often.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/04/2017 09:47 PM
Welcome back, Jorge!
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/07/2017 02:19 PM
Quote
Starliner to Start “Hot Fire” Engine Tests in New Mexico

A test version of the CST-100 Starliner — Boeing’s Crew Space Transportation vehicle — will soon begin a series of “hot fire” tests at NASA’s White Sand Facility in New Mexico. Boeing is building the Starliner for NASA to transport astronauts to and from the International Space Station, with a first crewed flight test scheduled for next year.

The Starliner houses a single propulsion system that supports all the spacecraft’s propulsion needs from ascent until deorbit burn after its departure from the space station. System capabilities will include maneuvering in space, or contingency abort scenarios, a feature that distinguishes Starliner from its Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and space shuttle predecessors.

The testing campaign will consist of simulated propellant flow rates for all mission scenarios; a fuel-loading demonstration; and hot fire tests that will include orbital maneuvers like docking with the space station, abort scenarios, and re-entering Earth’s atmosphere.

The test module is one of three Starliner qualification test vehicles, including the structural test article, which is undergoing lab tests in Huntington Beach, Calif., and Spacecraft 1, which will be ground-tested before flying a simulated abort from a launch pad over the New Mexico desert.

http://beyondearth.com/starliner-to-start-hot-fire-engine-tests-in-new-mexico/?sf112107808=1
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/26/2017 05:32 PM
Doesn’t sound very confident of crewed flight in 2018:

Quote
Chris Ferguson, Boeing: on track do at least uncrewed CST-100 test flight next year and “ideally” crewed test flight as well. #IAC2017

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/912534994211368960 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/912534994211368960)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TrevorMonty on 09/26/2017 05:56 PM
5 seats, 4 NASA crew leaving one spare. If Boeing can sell that seat then it is great way to make some extra money.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 09/26/2017 06:17 PM
5 seats, 4 NASA crew leaving one spare. If Boeing can sell that seat then it is great way to make some extra money.

I don't understand how that will work if CST-100 is flying once every 6-12 months.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 09/26/2017 07:01 PM
5 seats, 4 NASA crew leaving one spare. If Boeing can sell that seat then it is great way to make some extra money.

I don't understand how that will work if CST-100 is flying once every 6-12 months.
Long duration crew member slot??
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Semmel on 09/27/2017 12:17 PM
Doesn’t sound very confident of crewed flight in 2018:

Quote
Chris Ferguson, Boeing: on track do at least uncrewed CST-100 test flight next year and “ideally” crewed test flight as well. #IAC2017

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/912534994211368960 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/912534994211368960)

And a SpaceNews article on that as well.

http://spacenews.com/crewed-starliner-test-flight-could-slip-to-2019/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 09/30/2017 01:46 AM
5 seats, 4 NASA crew leaving one spare. If Boeing can sell that seat then it is great way to make some extra money.

I don't understand how that will work if CST-100 is flying once every 6-12 months.
Long duration crew member slot??
I would expect that space to be taken up by NASA for extra cargo transport.  Unless NanoRacks is able to finalize an agreement with the ISS partners for a NR employee slot on the station for managing their commercial airlock/payloads.


Quote
#IAC2017 @NanoRacks hints that they're in discussion with NASA for their own crew on the ISS
https://twitter.com/australianspace/status/912858633137819649

Quote
Response to a question on the impact of using ISS crew for commercial. Jeff stated that several organisations including his were in talk 1/2
https://twitter.com/australianspace/status/912863802172903424

Quote
With NASA about putting their own commercial crew on the station. Raises issues about real estate etc but he's a determined guy 2/2
https://twitter.com/australianspace/status/912864168415346690
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: catdlr on 10/06/2017 04:27 AM
Boeing CST-100 Starliner - the progress so far

SciNews
Published on Oct 5, 2017

Boeing’s Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner spacecraft is being developed as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. The spacecraft will transport up to seven astronauts, or a mix of crew and cargo, to low-Earth orbit.

Credit: Boeing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLPiSapL33Y?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLPiSapL33Y
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 10/18/2017 08:48 AM
From the video here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44006.msg1738899#msg1738899

Hardware coming together! (and separating!)

Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/27/2017 04:40 PM
ARTICLE: Boeing Starliner trio preparing for test flights -
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/11/boeing-starliner-trio-test-flights/

Includes more cool L2 renders from Nathan Koga.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 11/27/2017 08:50 PM
ARTICLE: Boeing Starliner trio preparing for test flights -
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/11/boeing-starliner-trio-test-flights/

Includes more cool L2 renders from Nathan Koga.

Was just thinking yesterday that there had been a surprising dearth of Starliner news recently.  Excellent timing.  Plus, new "updates" should be coming in the Commercial Crew update part of the NAC meeting on Nov. 29th.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/29/2017 11:00 PM
Quote
So what does a fleet of spacecraft under construction look like? #Starliner - coming soon to a Galaxy near you.

https://twitter.com/Astro_Ferg/status/936018967180738563 (https://twitter.com/Astro_Ferg/status/936018967180738563)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Archibald on 11/30/2017 08:07 AM
Reminds me of Stephen Baxter Voyage, when columbia aviation is building the MEMs...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SciNews on 12/22/2017 06:40 AM
NASA video about Starliner & Dragon progress this year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h9G3IfkVWU
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/04/2018 01:22 PM
A heat shield is used during separation test activities with Boeing's Starliner structural test article. The test article is undergoing rigorous qualification testing at the company's Huntington Beach Facility in California. Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner will launch on the Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/04/2018 01:22 PM
A Starliner structural test article at Boeing's Huntington Beach Facility in California, where the spacecraft, including the service module and other hardware of the Atlas V upper stage, are undergoing rigorous qualification testing, including tests like shock, separation and vibration. Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner will launch on the Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Lars-J on 01/04/2018 07:56 PM
https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/948993016978726915

Quote
Boeing Defense‏ @BoeingDefense
Check out the #Starliner Pad Abort Test and Orbital Flight Test vehicles under construction!
Now @ULALaunch #AtlasV has the green light for production + ops for the rocket that will boost OFT uncrewed #Starliner flight to @Space_Station Fall 2018!
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:01 PM
A Boeing CST-100 Starliner Service Module is being processed inside the company's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The Starliner will launch astronauts on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:02 PM
The Launch Abort Engines are installed in Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Pad Abort Test Vehicle Service Module in the company’s Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The Starliner will launch astronauts on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:03 PM
Two of Boeing's CST-100 Starliner Service Modules undergo processing inside the company's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The Starliner will launch astronauts on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:04 PM
Inside Boeing's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, a technician works on the NASA docking system that will attach to the company's CTS-100 Starliner spacecraft and allow the spacecraft to dock to the International Space Station. The Starliner will launch astronauts on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:04 PM
A view from above shows several Boeing CST-100 Starliner spacecraft in various stages of processing in the high bay inside the company's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The Starliner will launch astronauts on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:05 PM
A technician works on Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Pad Abort Test Vehicle inside the company's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The Starliner will launch astronauts on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:06 PM
The upper dome of Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Crew Test Flight Vehicle is undergoing processing inside the company's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The Starliner will launch astronauts on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/06/2018 12:07 PM
The lower dome of Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Crew Test Flight Vehicle is secured in a work stand inside the company's Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The CST-100 Starliner will launch on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.
Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Yeknom-Ecaps on 01/07/2018 03:47 AM
Boeing International Space Station DCR was held in December at Kennedy Space Center - what dates did this review take place?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 01/19/2018 09:26 AM
NASA's Commercial Crew Program astronauts, wearing spacesuits and augmented reality headsets, rehearse returning to Earth from the International Space Station during recent testing at Boeing's Extended Reality Laboratory in Philadelphia. The astronauts are seated upside down so they can practice releasing their seat harness and moving to the side hatch of the Starliner without assistance. The astronauts wearing the mixed reality gear see a digital version of the interior of the Starliner as it would look in the real-life scenario while interacting with the environment around them.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Jimmy_C on 01/20/2018 02:55 AM
NASA's Commercial Crew Program astronauts, wearing spacesuits and augmented reality headsets, rehearse returning to Earth from the International Space Station during recent testing at Boeing's Extended Reality Laboratory in Philadelphia. The astronauts are seated upside down so they can practice releasing their seat harness and moving to the side hatch of the Starliner without assistance. The astronauts wearing the mixed reality gear see a digital version of the interior of the Starliner as it would look in the real-life scenario while interacting with the environment around them.

Photo credit: Boeing

Is that a HoloLens?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: JH on 01/20/2018 10:46 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 01/31/2018 04:46 PM
Some remarks by Boeing CEO today when announcing financial results:

Quote
Full comments by @BoeingCEO today on CST-100 Starliner, the @Commercial_Crew program, and more: "We see human space exploration as a very important marketplace for us for the future."

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/958755895437090818
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: theonlyspace on 03/12/2018 02:26 PM
Has Boeing got any  complete  Starliner capsules assembled waiting for flight  or have  they even started building any complete  MAN RATED FLIGHT Starliner capsules and service modules THAT CAN FLY?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SWGlassPit on 03/12/2018 02:30 PM
Has Boeing got any  complete  Starliner capsules assembled waiting for flight  or have  they even started building any complete  MAN RATED FLIGHT Starliner capsules and service modules THAT CAN FLY?

The three flight vehicles are in various stages of completion.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 03/12/2018 02:33 PM
Has Boeing got any  complete  Starliner capsules assembled waiting for flight  or have  they even started building any complete  MAN RATED FLIGHT Starliner capsules and service modules THAT CAN FLY?

"Complete" meaning fully finished and ready to fly?  No.  Started building with significant progress, yes.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39244.msg1767950#msg1767950
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 03/13/2018 10:19 AM
NASA, Boeing and United Launch Alliance (ULA) conduct a simulation of launch procedures for Boeing’s Orbital Test Flight, the first uncrewed test of the company’s CST-100 Starliner and a ULA Atlas V rocket. Launch teams participated in the simulation across the country, including inside the Launch Vehicle Data Center at Hangar AE at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. The Starliner will launch on an Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.

Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/15/2018 11:13 AM
Quote
Tune in to @CNBC at 7:40 AM ET to see @MorganLBrennan live from our #Starliner facility on @NASAKennedy and to hear the latest @Commercial_Crew progress from #BoeingSpace!

https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/974246732061138944 (https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/974246732061138944)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 03/15/2018 03:28 PM
Nice update from cnbc:

http://cnb.cx/2FYExoi



Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Yeknom-Ecaps on 03/15/2018 10:53 PM
Aerojet Rocketdyne recently completed delivery of all of the crew module engines for Boeing's Crew Space Transportation (CST)-100 Starliner spacecraft. Boeing will integrate the engines into the Starliner crew module at its Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

http://www.rocket.com/article/aerojet-rocketdyne-ships-starliner-re-entry-thrusters

Anyone know the date the engines were deliverd to KSC? Any images?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 03/16/2018 03:41 AM
Nice update from cnbc:

http://cnb.cx/2FYExoi

Launch on 27 August.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: theonlyspace on 03/16/2018 07:34 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/15/behind-the-scenes-at-boeings-starliner-space-capsule-plant.html
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jtrame on 03/16/2018 11:17 AM
Thumbs up to Boeing, they have been very forthcoming in supplying detailed images of the CST-100 production at KSC.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Archibald on 03/22/2018 06:43 AM
A Starliner structural test article at Boeing's Huntington Beach Facility in California, where the spacecraft, including the service module and other hardware of the Atlas V upper stage, are undergoing rigorous qualification testing, including tests like shock, separation and vibration. Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner will launch on the Atlas V rocket to the International Space Station as part of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program.

(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/39244.0/1468328.jpg)

Photo credit: Boeing


What do I have that strange feeling this picture looks mightily familiar ? oh wait, I've found it !

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Apollo_11_CSM_moved_for_mating_to_spacecraft_adapter_%28S69-32370%29.jpg/469px-Apollo_11_CSM_moved_for_mating_to_spacecraft_adapter_%28S69-32370%29.jpg)

Hello Apollo my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again...
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: eric z on 03/22/2018 11:35 AM
 Thanks Archibald - That is a snazzy-looking Service Module! ;D
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: CNYMike on 03/22/2018 03:44 PM
CNBC story on Starliner:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YquBmaJo1So
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: MattMason on 03/22/2018 04:19 PM
CNBC story on Starliner:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YquBmaJo1So

That was one of the most impressive bits of space TV journalism I've seen anyone do in a very long time. Extremely detailed and accurate. The only oversimplification was the description of SpaceX's CC contribution--but this wasn't a story on them, so I'll let that pass.

It's my first time to see Starliner's construction at this level. The journalist got a great opportunity to show as well as explain a great amount of information. Well worth the watch.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Archibald on 03/25/2018 09:44 AM
Thanks Archibald - That is a snazzy-looking Service Module! ;D

And when you think about it further, not only the capsules look similar, but also the background: which makes some sense, since (afaik) the CST-100 production line is at The Cape in the former shuttle OPF, not too far from where the Apollo 11 CSM was processed.

History doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes.

(oh, and the face of the fellow in the video above, he looks uncannily similar to the former French president François Hollande, the one who ended with 4% positive approval ratings  :o )
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/26/2018 07:50 PM
Quote
Boeing CST-100 Starliner development update.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/978336973625724928
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/26/2018 07:53 PM
Quote
Update on Boeing's first Starliner flight vehicle (which won't carry crew). Rocket coming along too.

https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/978338508342530048
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 03/28/2018 07:04 PM
On March 15, the base heat shield for Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner was freshly installed on the bottom of Spacecraft 1 in the High Bay of the Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility at Kennedy Space Center. This is the spacecraft that will fly during the Pad Abort Test. The next step involves installation of the back shells and forward heat shield, and then the crew module will be mated to the service module for a fit check. Finally, the vehicle will head out to White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico for testing.

Photo Credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Archibald on 03/29/2018 10:06 AM
It looks like a screen shot from the epic HBO series, From the Earth to the Moon
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 04/01/2018 04:52 PM
While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry. We have a new human-rated spacecraft, folks, or will very soon. That is big stuff.  We are finally putting EELVs to work (flying people) in a way only talked about and thought about for many years.  We have a new human-capable pad now available, and will be returning manned flight back to the AFS at the Cape — something not seen since Apollo 7.  I personally cannot wait to see this vehicle on the pad, and am excited thinking of the future path this ship might take, as well as Crew Dragon, in bringing human flight to a wider audience, and how Starliner might evolve, as well. While Boeing has its detractors, for sure, they are an aerospace giant, and now have the capability to leverage enormous resources into the development of spaceflight in ways that are no longer soley dictated by NASA budgets, if they choose to do so.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rockets4life97 on 04/01/2018 11:12 PM
While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry. 

I think what you are missing is that most of the SpaceX excitement isn't about Crew Dragon, the equivalent here of Starliner. It seems to me that most of the excitement in the SpaceX forums is about reusable boosters, fairing recovery, Falcon Heavy, BFR, and increasingly Starlink. I think if Boeing said they were going to self-fund any kind of reusable launch vehicle, or deep space spaceship there would be lots of attention here (see the growing interest in the Blue Origin areas of the forum).
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Bob Shaw on 04/01/2018 11:51 PM
Boeing's PR output has been pretty pedestrian - no sign of an Elon Musk doing reveals through clouds of dry ice then climbing aboard, just stills at best of guys in simulators. Also, no actual launches (for however short a duration). For my ten cents, Starliner is simply Boeing's long-term bet against Orion vanishing up it's own budget, allowing the company to position itself in the post-Orion marketplace... ...your mileage may vary!
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jtrame on 04/03/2018 11:30 AM
Boeing's PR output has been pretty pedestrian - no sign of an Elon Musk doing reveals through clouds of dry ice then climbing aboard, just stills at best of guys in simulators.

With the exception of the pictures coming from the cape of actual CST-100 vehicles under construction.  Not a lot of pictures of this quality coming from Hawthorne yet as far as the manned version of Dragon is concerned.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Sknowball on 04/04/2018 05:01 PM
The Mission operations patch for the Orbital Flight Test has been revealed.

Boeing Mission Operations (MO) continues to prepare to fly the first #Starliner test flight later this year for @BoeingDefense. As part of our prep, we’ve created our MO patch for that Orbital Flight Test (OFT) mission. (https://twitter.com/Carbon_Flight/status/981219564909457410)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/05/2018 06:49 AM
Boeing's PR output has been pretty pedestrian - no sign of an Elon Musk doing reveals through clouds of dry ice then climbing aboard, just stills at best of guys in simulators.

With the exception of the pictures coming from the cape of actual CST-100 vehicles under construction.  Not a lot of pictures of this quality coming from Hawthorne yet as far as the manned version of Dragon is concerned.

Emphasis mine.

That's on purpose: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41016.msg1742534#msg1742534
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 04/05/2018 11:38 AM
Well Crew Dragon generated lots of commentary and interest when it planned for propulsive landing, but since that went away, I would agree that a lot of folks moved on to anything else that was bright and shiny and new...how can the return of crewed domestic flight now be considered less exciting than lobbying a Tesla?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: AbuSimbel on 04/05/2018 12:05 PM
Well Crew Dragon generated lots of commentary and interest when it planned for propulsive landing, but since that went away, I would agree that a lot of folks moved on to anything else that was bright and shiny and new...how can the return of crewed domestic flight now be considered less exciting than lobbying a Tesla?
Because it's just politics. Anyone outside the US doesn't care. What space fans care about is broadened access to space, so two private companies launching crew is much more exciting than 'launching from the american soil'.

Still, given how mission costs for both Strainer and Dragon 2 are very high (partly because of NASA), I'm personally keeping my excitement in check.

Seeing modern capsule designs fly, cool suits will be awesome, and I'm looking forward to it, but it's not the reason for the broader excitement towards SpaceX and new space companies.
What I'm really excited about is reusability, lower costs, high cadence for cargo flights. I'll be then extremely excited when all of this gets passed to human spaceflight with BFR, New Glenn and other crewed reusable systems that have the potential to make human spaceflight mainstream.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 04/05/2018 01:09 PM
Well Crew Dragon generated lots of commentary and interest when it planned for propulsive landing, but since that went away, I would agree that a lot of folks moved on to anything else that was bright and shiny and new...how can the return of crewed domestic flight now be considered less exciting than lobbying a Tesla?

Remember we didn't know about Tesla until T-2 months, and it didn't become a big hit until after the launch. Before T-2 months there's not a lot of excitement because there's no public image of the integrated vehicle and nobody is sure when exactly the launch will happen. I think the same applies to CC, right now there's too much schedule uncertainty, people will get excited once we have completed hardware at the cape.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SWGlassPit on 04/05/2018 03:37 PM
Friendly reminder that this isn't a SpaceX thread :-)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 04/06/2018 12:59 AM
...how can the return of crewed domestic flight now be considered less exciting than lobbying a Tesla?
Because it's just politics. Anyone outside the US doesn't care. What space fans care about is broadened access to space, so two private companies launching crew is much more exciting than 'launching from the american soil'.

Seeing modern capsule designs fly, cool suits will be awesome, and I'm looking forward to it, but it's not the reason for the broader excitement towards SpaceX and new space companies.
What I'm really excited about is reusability, lower costs, high cadence for cargo flights. I'll be then extremely excited when all of this gets passed to human spaceflight with BFR, New Glenn and other crewed reusable systems that have the potential to make human spaceflight mainstream.

Well, first off, it is America’s space program, so if others outside aren’t excited, I don’t really care, nor is it very important overall. The American space “audience” - even on the casual scale of interest - is still far larger than that of other countries at this point.  That should translate logically into a large number of persons paying attention to something important to us —the ability to launch our own astronauts again —  something that has been missing for years now.  No offense intended. 

Moreover, besides Russia and China, none of these other space-capable (or space-interested countries) have a crew launch capability at all, so they can continue to focus on non-crew flight if that is their thing. Good for them. Interestingly though, they really should be very interested in seeing an alternative to the stranglehold the other countries have on human launch. The American program will boost launch capacity and with it, their own opportunities for participation in crewed flight enormously.

Your Interest in reusability is understandable. It is  very interesting stuff, — moreso to the engineers in the crowd who can appreciate its complexities — but the jury is still out on how much impact it might have, years from now, on making flight “mainstream.”  Even the majority of space enthusiasts with some knowledge, cAn’t tell the significance separating a 500 million dollar launch from 100 Million dollar launch.  A cheaper launch does not look that much different, just maybe more of them.  But That didnt generate “more” excitement for Shuttle or Apollo— in fact, quite the opposite. 

So, while Reusability is interesting to watch develop, it is hard to describe  as “exciting”on a sustained basis to most folks, even knowledgeable ones.  The Crew programs however, are on the verge of realizing success very, very soon. And new vehicles are really a pretty rare thing. Progress toward new crew launches is picking up tempo, and that should be generating significant interest. Why it doesn’t do so here continues to surprise me.  If nothing else, the Cape is certainly expecting a big influx of new space launch tourism. It showed with the FH launch, which I attended. So maybe what is “mainstream” is very different that what you assume it to be.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TrevorMonty on 04/06/2018 10:22 AM
Neither Boeing or SpaceX have said much about space tourism except SpaceX moon flyby was has been canned. While an initial market for $25-$35m seats may not be huge I'd expect there is enough demand for a couple launches each a year.

If Boeing can sell 2-3 flights over and above   
NASA missions it would go long way to helping ULA achieve its 10 launches a year.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Star One on 04/06/2018 08:20 PM
NASA studies extending Boeing commercial crew test flight to support ISS

Quote
WASHINGTON — A commercial crew contract modification moves NASA one step closer to using a test flight as an operational mission to maintain a presence on the International Space Station.

NASA announced April 5 that it had updated its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract with Boeing to study potential changes to the second of two test flights of the company’s CST-100 Starliner vehicle, currently intended to carry two people on a short-duration mission to the station.

Those changes, NASA said, would involve adding a third crewmember to flight and extending its mission from two weeks to as long as six months, the typical length of an astronaut’s stay on the ISS. The changes would involve training and mission support for that third crewmember and the potential to fly cargo on both that mission and an earlier uncrewed test flight.

http://spacenews.com/nasa-studies-extending-boeing-commercial-crew-test-flight-to-support-iss/
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: docmordrid on 04/06/2018 09:54 PM
Wall Street Journal's take,

Doesn't this effectively merge Boe-CFT with Post-Certification Mission-1?

WSJ.... (http://"https://www.wsj.com/articles/nasa-boeing-signal-regular-missions-to-space-station-to-be-delayed-1522984513")

Quote
NASA, Boeing Signal Regular Missions to Space Station to Be Delayed

Revised Boeing contract signals capsule won't fly with crew until 2019


NASA and Boeing Co. have agreed to turn the initial test flight of the companys commercial crewed capsule into an operational mission, one of several recent signs officials are hedging their bets on when U.S. spacecraft will start regularly ferrying astronauts to the international space station.

Thursday's disclosure by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration suggests a previously planned two-person flight, slated for November 2018,  is now likely to occur in 2019 or 2020 and would likely carry one additional crew...{paywalled}
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ZachS09 on 04/06/2018 11:41 PM
Here's a few options I can think of for a third astronaut should that plan turn true:

Either they can bring up another one of NASA's Commercial Crew cadre;

They can bring up a space tourist for a long-duration mission since this mission might last six months;

They might bring up another Boeing test pilot;

Or they might send up an international astronaut from either ESA, Russia, Canada, or Japan.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 04/07/2018 02:08 PM
How does this signal a delay in regular flights? I dont have access to the Journal article, so perhaps it is explained there, but we are only looking at an expansion of the already planned flight, as this summary reads.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 04/07/2018 02:13 PM
How does this signal a delay in regular flights? I dont have access to the Journal article, so perhaps it is explained there, but we are only looking at an expansion of the already planned flight, as this summary reads.

The reason for expanding the test flight would be to avoid having a gap in the crew when the schedule slips.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 04/08/2018 09:39 AM
So the slip would occur after this “test flight” while awaiting certification as “operational” vehicle - is that it? — despite the fact the test flight served as an operational flight?  But The first crew flight (being a test) would still occur roughly “on schedule.” Is this what we are saying...sorry to be dense.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: gongora on 04/08/2018 02:21 PM
Right now you've got Soyuz flights going up about every three months (not exactly that duration, but close) so that after a 3-person crew has been on orbit for 5-6 months their replacements come up on another Soyuz.  With the planned initiation of U.S. crew flights the future Soyuz flights have been cut back so that Soyuz and U.S. crew vehicles would alternate.  On the last FPIP we've seen it looks like the crew going up in March 2019 will be replaced by another Soyuz flight in September 2019, but the crew going up in May 2019 doesn't have a replacement Soyuz scheduled.  That means around November 2019 either the U.S. flies up some crew or the number of crew on ISS gets cut in half. 

Both of the U.S. crew vehicles are scheduled to be flying by then, but there isn't really a guarantee they will be.  Basically if a first crewed test flight happens in early 2019 then it could just take the two astronauts already scheduled and then we could have a post certification mission around November.  If the first crewed test flights slip into the summer (or later) then the test flight may need to expand its scope to keep the ISS crew size from shrinking in November 2019.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/09/2018 10:15 AM
Quote
And the two become one....Launch Pad Abort Test is next

https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/983175787393310721
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chipguy on 04/09/2018 05:33 PM
While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry.

This particular spacecraft configuration/architecture was pretty exciting... 50 years ago.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: okan170 on 04/09/2018 05:55 PM
While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry.

This particular spacecraft configuration/architecture was pretty exciting... 50 years ago.

Its almost the same as the other spacecraft.  People are more excited for a certain company's hype.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kevinof on 04/09/2018 06:17 PM
I don't want to take this off topic but neither excite me. Dragon 2 would have been a big step forward by landing on land with the Dracos.  That's gone and their dunking it in the ocean which is what they did 50 years ago.

Same with CST. It's basically the same as Apollo 50 years ago but with modern avionics. No re-using anything, not pushing the boat out on anything. Kind of meh!

So for me neither one get the juices going much.

While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry.

This particular spacecraft configuration/architecture was pretty exciting... 50 years ago.

Its almost the same as the other spacecraft.  People are more excited for a certain company's hype.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rockets4life97 on 04/09/2018 06:27 PM
No re-using anything [snip]

This is wrong. Boeing will be re-using parts (even the whole pressure vessel I believe).
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: kevinof on 04/09/2018 06:34 PM
Ok fair enough but that doesn't cut the mustard with me. It's like saying you'll re-use a truck after every delivery but actually scrapping everything but the chassis.  So much time, effort and cost goes into building these things and chucking them away just gets me. 

And that's the other thing - Years have gone by since this program was started and we're still what a year or best part of, before either flies.

Just kind of lost it's spark for me.

No re-using anything [snip]

This is wrong. Boeing will be re-using parts (even the whole pressure vessel I believe).
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TrevorMonty on 04/09/2018 06:40 PM
No re-using anything [snip]

This is wrong. Boeing will be re-using parts (even the whole pressure vessel I believe).
Plus it lands on land using airbags, which is new compared to Russians and New Shepard retro engines.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Prettz on 04/09/2018 07:45 PM
No re-using anything [snip]

This is wrong. Boeing will be re-using parts (even the whole pressure vessel I believe).
Plus it lands on land using airbags, which is new compared to Russians and New Shepard retro engines.
It's pretty much exactly the same as Soyuz, just with a different method of making the touchdown non-destructive. It's still a very hard landing, out in the middle of the wilderness. The crew still has to wait out in the middle of nowhere for a convoy to come rescue them.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erioladastra on 04/10/2018 01:03 AM
No re-using anything [snip]

This is wrong. Boeing will be re-using parts (even the whole pressure vessel I believe).
Plus it lands on land using airbags, which is new compared to Russians and New Shepard retro engines.
It's pretty much exactly the same as Soyuz, just with a different method of making the touchdown non-destructive. It's still a very hard landing, out in the middle of the wilderness. The crew still has to wait out in the middle of nowhere for a convoy to come rescue them.

Not correct.  CST-100 will land nominally at a designated site where there will be personnel ready to get them out and recover the vehicle very quickly.  Only an emergency off-nominal landing on land or in the water would there be any wait.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erioladastra on 04/10/2018 01:05 AM
I don't want to take this off topic but neither excite me. Dragon 2 would have been a big step forward by landing on land with the Dracos.  That's gone and their dunking it in the ocean which is what they did 50 years ago.

Same with CST. It's basically the same as Apollo 50 years ago but with modern avionics. No re-using anything, not pushing the boat out on anything. Kind of meh!

So for me neither one get the juices going much.

While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry.

This particular spacecraft configuration/architecture was pretty exciting... 50 years ago.

Its almost the same as the other spacecraft.  People are more excited for a certain company's hype.

Well yes, you have a capsule but some times the best design is the same design.  After thousands of years we still make boats look like, well boats.  But the CST-100 does have some big difference over Apollo, not the least one being that it is autonomous.  Should be able to launch,. dock and come home without needing the crew to do anything (but they can if something goes wrong).
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erioladastra on 04/10/2018 01:06 AM
Here's a few options I can think of for a third astronaut should that plan turn true:

Either they can bring up another one of NASA's Commercial Crew cadre;

They can bring up a space tourist for a long-duration mission since this mission might last six months;

They might bring up another Boeing test pilot;

Or they might send up an international astronaut from either ESA, Russia, Canada, or Japan.


Won't be 2 Boeing pilots.  Boeing only has one and NASA would not use a seat that way.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erioladastra on 04/10/2018 01:07 AM
Wall Street Journal's take,

Doesn't this effectively merge Boe-CFT with Post-Certification Mission-1?

WSJ.... (http://"https://www.wsj.com/articles/nasa-boeing-signal-regular-missions-to-space-station-to-be-delayed-1522984513")

Quote
NASA, Boeing Signal Regular Missions to Space Station to Be Delayed

Revised Boeing contract signals capsule won't fly with crew until 2019


NASA and Boeing Co. have agreed to turn the initial test flight of the companys commercial crewed capsule into an operational mission, one of several recent signs officials are hedging their bets on when U.S. spacecraft will start regularly ferrying astronauts to the international space station.

Thursday's disclosure by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration suggests a previously planned two-person flight, slated for November 2018,  is now likely to occur in 2019 or 2020 and would likely carry one additional crew...{paywalled}

Basically, yeah.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/10/2018 07:04 AM
Ok fair enough but that doesn't cut the mustard with me. It's like saying you'll re-use a truck after every delivery but actually scrapping everything but the chassis.  So much time, effort and cost goes into building these things and chucking them away just gets me. 

And that's the other thing - Years have gone by since this program was started and we're still what a year or best part of, before either flies.

Just kind of lost it's spark for me.

That is what you get when NASA is in charge. Remember, both CCP spacecraft are being constructed based on high- and mid-level requirements coming from NASA.

And although it was SpaceX that formally decided to do away with propulsive landing on Crew Dragon it was NASA which demanded that initial Crew Dragon missions should land under parachute, into the ocean. And NASA followed-up on that by setting very burdensome requirements for propulsive landing, the result of which was that SpaceX came to the conclusion that propulsive landing on Crew Dragon was no longer worth the effort.

This Crew Dragon is not the one originally intended by SpaceX:
- Four (4) parachutes in stead of three (3).
- Ocean landings under parachute in stead of propulsive land landings.
- Interior re-designed not once, but twice because NASA vetoed both the original design and the first re-design.

All courtesy of NASA.

But I digress.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: TrevorMonty on 04/10/2018 10:06 AM
Ok fair enough but that doesn't cut the mustard with me. It's like saying you'll re-use a truck after every delivery but actually scrapping everything but the chassis.  So much time, effort and cost goes into building these things and chucking them away just gets me. 

And that's the other thing - Years have gone by since this program was started and we're still what a year or best part of, before either flies.

Just kind of lost it's spark for me.

That is what you get when NASA is in charge. Remember, both CCP spacecraft are being constructed based on high- and mid-level requirements coming from NASA.

And although it was SpaceX that formally decided to do away with propulsive landing on Crew Dragon it was NASA which demanded that initial Crew Dragon missions should land under parachute, into the ocean. And NASA followed-up on that by setting very burdensome requirements for propulsive landing, the result of which was that SpaceX came to the conclusion that propulsive landing on Crew Dragon was no longer worth the effort.

This Crew Dragon is not the one originally intended by SpaceX:
- Four (4) parachutes in stead of three (3).
- Ocean landings under parachute in stead of propulsive land landings.
- Interior re-designed not once, but twice because NASA vetoed both the original design and the first re-design.

All courtesy of NASA.

But I digress.
The customer is always right, especially when they are paying for it.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Svetoslav on 04/10/2018 10:07 AM
The problem is that the customer doesn't want to buy astronaut seats, but to buy whole spacecraft specially designed according to its guidelines.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/10/2018 10:47 AM
The problem is that the customer doesn't want to buy astronaut seats, but to buy whole spacecraft specially designed according to its guidelines.

Not quite. The customer is only renting the spacecraft, but requires the spacecraft manufacturer to have the spacecraft adhere to high- and mid-level requirement, which are set by the customer.
The CCP spacecraft do NOT become the property of NASA. Similar to CRS.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: chipguy on 04/10/2018 05:43 PM
The customer is always right, especially when they are paying for it.

That is true but when given a choice a vendor will avoid an obstreperous customer in the future.

If that vendor achieves a compelling enough competitive posture then that problem customer will
have a lot more reason to deal on the vendor's terms than vice versa.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: rayleighscatter on 04/10/2018 08:53 PM
The customer is always right, especially when they are paying for it.

That is true but when given a choice a vendor will avoid an obstreperous customer in the future.

If that vendor achieves a compelling enough competitive posture then that problem customer will
have a lot more reason to deal on the vendor's terms than vice versa.
There's no lack of vendors willing to sell NASA whatever NASA wants.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clongton on 04/10/2018 09:07 PM
There's no lack of vendors willing to sell NASA whatever NASA wants.

If their goal is to get financially rewarded then they will be very happy. Being a government bureaucracy the agency pays well and is *extremely* liberal in its requirements to produce on time and on budget.
However if your goal is to actually get something done, better to steer clear. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Yeknom-Ecaps on 04/10/2018 11:57 PM
The Mission operations patch for the Orbital Flight Test has been revealed.

Boeing Mission Operations (MO) continues to prepare to fly the first #Starliner test flight later this year for @BoeingDefense. As part of our prep, we’ve created our MO patch for that Orbital Flight Test (OFT) mission. (https://twitter.com/Carbon_Flight/status/981219564909457410)


Is there a version of this without the black (outside border) background?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: obi-wan on 04/11/2018 01:25 AM
Ok fair enough but that doesn't cut the mustard with me. It's like saying you'll re-use a truck after every delivery but actually scrapping everything but the chassis.  So much time, effort and cost goes into building these things and chucking them away just gets me. 

And that's the other thing - Years have gone by since this program was started and we're still what a year or best part of, before either flies.

Just kind of lost it's spark for me.

That is what you get when NASA is in charge. Remember, both CCP spacecraft are being constructed based on high- and mid-level requirements coming from NASA.

And although it was SpaceX that formally decided to do away with propulsive landing on Crew Dragon it was NASA which demanded that initial Crew Dragon missions should land under parachute, into the ocean. And NASA followed-up on that by setting very burdensome requirements for propulsive landing, the result of which was that SpaceX came to the conclusion that propulsive landing on Crew Dragon was no longer worth the effort.

This Crew Dragon is not the one originally intended by SpaceX:
- Four (4) parachutes in stead of three (3).
- Ocean landings under parachute in stead of propulsive land landings.
- Interior re-designed not once, but twice because NASA vetoed both the original design and the first re-design.

All courtesy of NASA.

But I digress.

Are there any references to NASA vetoing two interior designs? Specifically, are there any available documents or photos showing the two design iterations? It would be fascinating to see what SpaceX proposed, and why NASA vetoed them. This is the first I've heard of it.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: ReturnTrajectory on 04/11/2018 02:22 AM
NASA does not have "veto" capability over anything.  It's a joint venture essentially.  We are meeting the requirements NASA put forward.  But these are not "NASA" spaceships. 

But on another note, why does SpaceX once again creep in to a CST-100 thread?

And CST-100 will be first to ISS.  :-)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/11/2018 08:07 AM
NASA does not have "veto" capability over anything.  It's a joint venture essentially.  We are meeting the requirements NASA put forward.  But these are not "NASA" spaceships. 


The first iterations of the interior were thought - by SpaceX - to meet the NASA requirements. Until NASA said they didn't. "Vetoed" may have been the wrong word to use but effectively it means the same. In that NASA directed the contractor to go back to the drawing board and try again.

The seats have gone through multiple iterations to get NASA approval.
Trouble with high- to mid-level requirements is that they are often open to multiple interpretations. And that has happened on plenty of things regarding Crew Dragon, including the interior, the seats and the instrument panel. The interior and seats are now pretty much set, but NASA and SpaceX are still working on the instrument panel.

For contrast: the design of the instrument panel of CST-100 was set - and approved by NASA - quite a while ago.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/11/2018 09:03 AM
Quote
Things are really 🌟 coming together 🌟 for the #BoeingSpace team!
Coming up, we'll test fire 🔥🔥🔥🔥 this vehicle's @AerojetRdyne engines with partner @ULALaunch to prove #Starliner can swiftly carry astronauts to safety in the unlikely event of a launch vehicle emergency.

https://twitter.com/boeingdefense/status/983819515602636800
Title: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Star One on 04/11/2018 04:08 PM
There's no lack of vendors willing to sell NASA whatever NASA wants.

If their goal is to get financially rewarded then they will be very happy. Being a government bureaucracy the agency pays well and is *extremely* liberal in its requirements to produce on time and on budget.
However if your goal is to actually get something done, better to steer clear.

Were you just intending to insult public sector workers as a whole with this post, as speaking from the public sector in the U.K. I assure you we get plenty done in spite of commentary from those who actually know nothing about we do and just believe the media.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clongton on 04/11/2018 06:48 PM
There's no lack of vendors willing to sell NASA whatever NASA wants.

If their goal is to get financially rewarded then they will be very happy. Being a government bureaucracy the agency pays well and is *extremely* liberal in its requirements to produce on time and on budget.
However if your goal is to actually get something done, better to steer clear.

Were you just intending to insult public sector workers as a whole with this post, as speaking from the public sector in the U.K. I assure you we get plenty done in spite of commentary from those who actually know nothing about we do and just believe the media.

Hell no. I'm talking about the way NASA does business. Just look at the record. EVERY project NASA has done for decades has come in way over budget, far behind schedule or both. More than just a few spent hundreds of millions if not billions and then were cancelled. Most government bureaucracies have similar records. It's not the public sector workers at all. AFAIK they're great. It's the way their employers do business. It's the very definition of inefficiency.

My experience is not from the outside looking in. It's putting up with it on the inside.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Star One on 04/11/2018 07:30 PM
There's no lack of vendors willing to sell NASA whatever NASA wants.

If their goal is to get financially rewarded then they will be very happy. Being a government bureaucracy the agency pays well and is *extremely* liberal in its requirements to produce on time and on budget.
However if your goal is to actually get something done, better to steer clear.

Were you just intending to insult public sector workers as a whole with this post, as speaking from the public sector in the U.K. I assure you we get plenty done in spite of commentary from those who actually know nothing about we do and just believe the media.

Hell no. I'm talking about the way NASA does business. Just look at the record. EVERY project NASA has done for decades has come in way over budget, far behind schedule or both. More than just a few spent hundreds of millions if not billions and then were cancelled. Most government bureaucracies have similar records. It's not the public sector workers at all. AFAIK they're great. It's the way their employers do business. It's the very definition of inefficiency.

My experience is not from the outside looking in. It's putting up with it on the inside.

Fair enough. Honestly it wasn’t clear from your OP.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: wannamoonbase on 04/11/2018 09:07 PM
My experience is not from the outside looking in. It's putting up with it on the inside.

I agree, working on facilities for NASA and DOD projects.  It's not the employees.  Its congress (both parties) not carrying if anything gets done as long as money is flowing into the right hands.

NASP, X-33, Constellation, just name one.

The length of time it's taking to make SLS is simply embarrassing. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: russianhalo117 on 04/11/2018 09:12 PM
My experience is not from the outside looking in. It's putting up with it on the inside.

I agree, working on facilities for NASA and DOD projects.  It's not the employees.  Its congress (both parties) not carrying if anything gets done as long as money is flowing into the right hands.

NASP, X-33, Constellation, just name one.

The length of time it's taking to make SLS is simply embarrassing.
Who says that it is just Congress, besides this is not a political thread so let's try not to stray from the actual topic at hand.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 04/11/2018 10:42 PM
EVERY project NASA has done for decades has come in way over budget, far behind schedule or both.
New Horizons didn't.  I'm sure there are others.

Maybe dial back the rhetoric just a notch?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: erioladastra on 04/12/2018 12:43 AM
NASA does not have "veto" capability over anything.  It's a joint venture essentially.  We are meeting the requirements NASA put forward.  But these are not "NASA" spaceships. 

But on another note, why does SpaceX once again creep in to a CST-100 thread?

And CST-100 will be first to ISS.  :-)

Well it's not that simple.  NASA provided requirements, the partners provided designs and have to complete design Verification Closure Notices.  Through that, and other mechanism, NASA can "veto" anything by saying "we won't sign that".  Now, there are mechanism to resolve differences if say the partner fights andsays "well it IS meeting requirements...".  But if NASA really, really doesn't want something it has many ways to not approve it.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 04/12/2018 03:46 PM
While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry.

This particular spacecraft configuration/architecture was pretty exciting... 50 years ago.

Its almost the same as the other spacecraft.  People are more excited for a certain company's hype.

Maybe it is because I grew up watching Apollo, but to me, Starliner is something akin to what we may have seen Apollo evolve into, at least for LEO taxi service, had we remained with its incredibly robust and practical configuration, probably guaranteeing easier and reliable regular access to LEO without the huge involvement required for an Orbiter launch.  Shuttle was an incredible vehicle, but its much higher than expected costs, and safety concerns limited its practical applications to high-cost, high-profile undertakings.

This design is being returned to because it works and is practical in its relative simplicity. The ease of access to orbit, and the possibility of Boeing evolving the core vehicle for more intensive needs, is an exciting prospect. Why is it some folks think because it was used (very successfully) decades ago, but then abandoned, that it no longer has validity as an excellent design.  This is like looking at the B2 bomber and saying “ya know, the old B49 already did the flying wing configuration, and you know, it wasnt the best thing in the sky — and we moved on decades ago — so the B2 will likewise be worthless...”.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: deruch on 04/12/2018 03:51 PM
NASA does not have "veto" capability over anything.  It's a joint venture essentially.  We are meeting the requirements NASA put forward.  But these are not "NASA" spaceships. 

But on another note, why does SpaceX once again creep in to a CST-100 thread?

And CST-100 will be first to ISS.  :-)

Well it's not that simple.  NASA provided requirements, the partners provided designs and have to complete design Verification Closure Notices.  Through that, and other mechanism, NASA can "veto" anything by saying "we won't sign that".  Now, there are mechanism to resolve differences if say the partner fights andsays "well it IS meeting requirements...".  But if NASA really, really doesn't want something it has many ways to not approve it.

In addition to the contracting rules allowing them to buy future operational missions and thereby avoid the timeline misalignment that COTS-->CRS experienced, this specific issue (i.e. allowing NASA to set those requirements and enforce changes they wanted that the partner didn't) was the other major reason for switching from using OTA to traditional FAR contracts for CCtCap. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Kansan52 on 04/12/2018 03:55 PM
For me, Boeing isn't flying any version of the Starliner and the other guys are flying a version of theirs.

On the other hand, it has been fun watching Boeing lose on the Orion competition, builds from that and work with Bigelow to come to the Starliner and may will fly before Orion.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: SWGlassPit on 04/12/2018 03:56 PM
While I appreciate the excitement on this website for what Space X is accomplshing, I am somewhat baffled that there isn’t more excitement (or more postings) for this Boeing entry.

This particular spacecraft configuration/architecture was pretty exciting... 50 years ago.

Its almost the same as the other spacecraft.  People are more excited for a certain company's hype.

Maybe it is because I grew up watching Apollo, but to me, Starliner is something akin to what we may have seen Apollo evolve into, at least for LEO taxi service, had we remained with its incredibly robust and practical configuration, probably guaranteeing easier and reliable regular access to LEO without the huge involvement required for an Orbiter launch.  Shuttle was an incredible vehicle, but its much higher than expected costs, and safety concerns limited its practical applications to high-cost, high-profile undertakings.

This design is being returned to because it works and is practical in its relative simplicity. The ease of access to orbit, and the possibility of Boeing evolving the core vehicle for more intensive needs, is an exciting prospect. Why is it some folks think because it was used (very successfully) decades ago, but then abandoned, that it no longer has validity as an excellent design.  This is like looking at the B2 bomber and saying “ya know, the old B49 already did the flying wing configuration, and you know, it wasnt the best thing in the sky — and we moved on decades ago — so the B2 will likewise be worthless...”.

Agree with this.  People are judging the "innovation" of a spacecraft by its outer mold line, which is akin to judging a book not by its cover, but by the fact that it is generally rectangularly shaped.  Spacecraft, aircraft, sea vessels, etc, tend to have similar shapes from design to design because those shapes are dictated by physics. 
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/13/2018 06:39 AM
For me, Boeing isn't flying any version of the Starliner and the other guys are flying a version of theirs.

On the other hand, it has been fun watching Boeing lose on the Orion competition, builds from that and work with Bigelow to come to the Starliner and may will fly before Orion.

Yes, that is most ironic.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 04/13/2018 08:06 AM
On the other hand, it has been fun watching Boeing lose on the Orion competition, builds from that and work with Bigelow to come to the Starliner and may will fly before Orion.

Orion has already flown (EFT-1 with a dummy service module on 5 December 2014). Starliner will fly crew before Orion though.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: woods170 on 04/13/2018 09:25 AM
On the other hand, it has been fun watching Boeing lose on the Orion competition, builds from that and work with Bigelow to come to the Starliner and may will fly before Orion.

Orion has already flown (EFT-1 with a dummy service module on 5 December 2014). Starliner will fly crew before Orion though.

What flew on EFT-1 in 2014 was a bare-bones version of the crew module, with an inert LAS and structural spacer in stead of service module.

Doing an apples-to-apples comparison between Starliner and Orion - with regards to flight testing that is - is comparing Starliner's OFT against Orion's EM-1. Both missions will fly unmanned versions of the full-up spacecraft.
In which case Starliner flies well before Orion.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: abaddon on 04/13/2018 02:01 PM
So now we've moved from bringing up Dragon to bringing up Orion into the thread.  Starliner can't win it seems ;).

Me, I can't wait to see Starliner fly from the newly crew-capable Atlas V pad!  Also looking forward to the upcoming abort test.  Any word on whether that will be livestreamed or not yet?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: clongton on 04/13/2018 02:19 PM
I'm looking forward to all 3 of them flying. But you're right. This is the CST-100 thread and should be kept on-topic. There are plenty of threads for the others.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/13/2018 07:25 PM
FEATURE ARTICLE: Starliner gets potential mission duration increase for Crew Flight Test -

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/04/starliner-potential-mission-duration-increase-crew-test/ …
- By Chris Gebhardt

(Renders by Nathan Koga for NSF/L2)
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Ike17055 on 04/14/2018 02:59 PM
On the other hand, it has been fun watching Boeing lose on the Orion competition, builds from that and work with Bigelow to come to the Starliner and may will fly before Orion.

Orion has already flown (EFT-1 with a dummy service module on 5 December 2014). Starliner will fly crew before Orion though.

What flew on EFT-1 in 2014 was a bare-bones version of the crew module, with an inert LAS and structural spacer in stead of service module.

Doing an apples-to-apples comparison between Starliner and Orion - with regards to flight testing that is - is comparing Starliner's OFT against Orion's EM-1. Both missions will fly unmanned versions of the full-up spacecraft.
In which case Starliner flies well before Orion.


I always find it amazing that so many will say “what flew wasn’t REALLY a real Orion,” but then will just as boldly say that Dragon “is already flying,” as if there is no real difference between crew dragon and cargo dragon. Orion for EFT-1 bore just as much resemblance to its completed version (more, in the opinion of some) as the cargo Dragon does to its built-outs uccessor, the Crew Dragon, with which it mainly shares a similar or identical pressure vessel.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/14/2018 06:53 PM
On the other hand, it has been fun watching Boeing lose on the Orion competition, builds from that and work with Bigelow to come to the Starliner and may will fly before Orion.

Orion has already flown (EFT-1 with a dummy service module on 5 December 2014). Starliner will fly crew before Orion though.

What flew on EFT-1 in 2014 was a bare-bones version of the crew module, with an inert LAS and structural spacer in stead of service module.

Doing an apples-to-apples comparison between Starliner and Orion - with regards to flight testing that is - is comparing Starliner's OFT against Orion's EM-1. Both missions will fly unmanned versions of the full-up spacecraft.
In which case Starliner flies well before Orion.


I always find it amazing that so many will say “what flew wasn’t REALLY a real Orion,” but then will just as boldly say that Dragon “is already flying,” as if there is no real difference between crew dragon and cargo dragon. Orion for EFT-1 bore just as much resemblance to its completed version (more, in the opinion of some) as the cargo Dragon does to its built-outs uccessor, the Crew Dragon, with which it mainly shares a similar or identical pressure vessel.
I think you'd have a valid point if SpaceX had stopped at SpaceX COTS Demo Flight 1. But SpaceX has a huge number of Dragon missions under their belt, now, of a sophistication much higher than EFT-1 or COTS Demo 1. The heatshield tech (which was a big part of what EFT-1 and COTS Demo 1 were testing) is also more similar between Dragon cargo and crew than between EFT-1 and later Orion versions, so in spite of the differences in outer moldline, I'd say EFT-1 and Demo-1 were fairly close to each other as far as replicating the eventual crewed variants. But for actual operations and deep, near-term experience with capsules, SpaceX is unrivaled in the US.
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 05/03/2018 09:23 AM
Boeing’s CST-100 Pad Abort Test Vehicle is almost ready to head to White Sands, New Mexico, to test the launch abort engines. During that test, the four abort engines will prove that the vehicle can safely perform an abort maneuver in the event of an emergency on the launchpad or during flight. The vehicle is mated to the service module for a fit check, and then the two will be taken apart for final preparations before heading to the desert.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 05/03/2018 09:24 AM
Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Crew Flight Test vehicle will be the second to go to space, and the first to fly crew on a test flight to the International Space Station. In this picture, the upper dome is actually mated to the lower dome, but only electronically. The Boeing team is making sure all the hardware and software in the two pieces are working together correctly, before they will be put together for a final time. Then, the interior of the spacecraft will be outfitted and the outside will be covered with thermal protection.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: jacqmans on 05/03/2018 09:24 AM
Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner Orbital Flight Test vehicle will fly the first test flight to space on an uncrewed mission to the International Space Station. Here you see the spacecraft’s upper dome undergoing the final preparations before the upper and lower dome are mated for a pressure test, and then the two domes will move on to be populated with avionics, life support and other critical hardware.

Photo credit: Boeing
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/11/2018 01:39 PM
Quote
Full house. A full crew evaluates what it will be like on the @Boeing #Starliner  during launch and landing day. Exercises like this help define procedures and give the crew a sense of what to expect. @Commercial_Crew

https://twitter.com/astro_ferg/status/994933930984960000
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: su27k on 05/19/2018 04:32 AM
This was originally the title image for article https://www.nasa.gov/feature/team-simulates-commercial-crew-flights-to-space-station, but for some reason they changed the Boeing image to the full crew evaluation one instead, maybe because the original Boeing image is a bit confusing? What is the right hand side astronaut doing?
Title: Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
Post by: zhangmdev on 05/21/2018 10:23 AM
<snip> What is the right hand side astronaut doing?

"NASA’s Commercial Crew Program astronauts, wearing spacesuits and augmented reality headsets, rehearse returning to Earth from the International Space Station during recent testing at Boeing’s Extended Reality Laboratory in Philadelphia. The astronauts are seated upside down so they can practice releasing their seat harness and moving to the side hatch of the Starliner without assistance. The astronauts wearing the mixed reality gear see a digital version of the interior of the Starliner as it would look in the real-life scenario while interacting with the environment around them. Photo credit: Boeing"

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/