Author Topic: Blue Origin working towards making the Cape its Orbital Launch Site  (Read 28192 times)

Offline Lar

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I wonder how much they’ll apply to this design based on what SpaceX did to “Slick 40”. It must be nice watching the leader and learning from their hard work to see what works and what doesn’t....

"Fast Follower" ... it's in Amazon's DNA. Some of that leaked over to Blue for sure... (well maybe not the "fast" part, grin, duck run!)
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline DJPledger

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I have a question on pad size. Will the available safe area support a much bigger vehicle like New Armstrong?
Impossible to answer since we know almost nothing about New Armstrong.
I think it is a safe assumption it will have at least Saturn V thrust.
I estimate that NA will have around 2x Saturn V thrust for it to be a meaningful step up from NG. LC-37 may be able to handle that with suitable reworking. Size of exclusion zone for anything over 2x Saturn V thrust will be likely prohibitive for operations from the Cape.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2017 02:04 PM by DJPledger »

Online Lars-J

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And what exactly is your “estimate” based on?

Online AncientU

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I have a question on pad size. Will the available safe area support a much bigger vehicle like New Armstrong?
Impossible to answer since we know almost nothing about New Armstrong.
I think it is a safe assumption it will have at least Saturn V thrust.
I estimate that NA will have around 2x Saturn V thrust for it to be a meaningful step up from NG. LC-37 may be able to handle that with suitable reworking. Size of exclusion zone for anything over 2x Saturn V thrust will be likely prohibitive for operations from the Cape.

2X Saturn V thrust wouldn't have worked on LC-39B, so this is probably an over the top estimate.
12 Mlbf is a more supportable estimate -- it is basically 3x New Glenn, and right around BFR, which isn't too shabby.
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Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Here's the latest 3-month average (Jul to Sep) and 1-month average (Nov) from Planet.

Given they're apparently delivering LOX storage tanks, I wonder how far along it is ...

--- Tony


Terraserver shows concrete pads of the LOX tanks already poured and ready on November 13th:

https://www.terraserver.com/view?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search_text=&searchLat=&searchLng=&lat=28.4859&lng=-80.5444&bbox=&center=
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Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Quote
LOX/LNG oxidizer and propellant tanks delivered to LC-36. Starting to look more and more like a launch pad! #NewGlenn

https://twitter.com/blueorigin/status/943478882052685825

Online jebbo

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For the number of mounts on the concrete pads in the previous photo, I guess that's about half of the total they'll have?

--- Tony

Offline Chasm

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Just about that.
There are two sets, 7 and 5 tanks.

The other set is to the right of the view in the picture.
Slightly different positions than in the environmental assessment maps.

Offline DJPledger

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I have a question on pad size. Will the available safe area support a much bigger vehicle like New Armstrong?
Impossible to answer since we know almost nothing about New Armstrong.
I think it is a safe assumption it will have at least Saturn V thrust.
I estimate that NA will have around 2x Saturn V thrust for it to be a meaningful step up from NG. LC-37 may be able to handle that with suitable reworking. Size of exclusion zone for anything over 2x Saturn V thrust will be likely prohibitive for operations from the Cape.

2X Saturn V thrust wouldn't have worked on LC-39B, so this is probably an over the top estimate.
12 Mlbf is a more supportable estimate -- it is basically 3x New Glenn, and right around BFR, which isn't too shabby.
BO may be able to modify LC-37 to handle higher thrust if they require it. There is plenty of space around LC-37 for expansion of it.

Offline Comga

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Very, very interesting. I like the LV Wash Down. That's going to be one big washing machine!

Washing was determined to be unnecessary for SpaceX.
Another interesting differentiation
And the Peroxide Tank.  Was that previously announced as the ACS propellant?
Not very high performance, but pleasantly not toxic.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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According to this article, Blue Origin is considering using LC-36 for polar launches possibly negating the need to get a VAFB pad:

Quote
Blue Origin, which has a contract to launch OneWeb satellites into polar orbits in the 2020s, does not yet have a Vandenberg launch site and says those missions could launch from the Cape.

“New Glenn has the capability and performance to launch customers into polar orbit from Florida,” the company said in a statement. “We are working diligently to finish our launch site at Launch Complex 36 so we can meet the market demands of commercial, civil, and national security customers from the Space Coast.”

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2017/12/31/southbound-cape-rockets-may-fly-new-path-toward-poles/975027001/
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Online Welsh Dragon

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So trajectory wise that would be hugging the coast and then dog-leg at St Pierre and Miquelon to go polar over Greenland, I'd guess?

Online nacnud

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Nope, they are thinking of going south and dropping the first stage before cuba. The restriction is any rocket doing this must have automated range safety. So currently only Falcon 9 but I think all planned future rockets will have this too.
« Last Edit: 01/01/2018 12:33 PM by nacnud »

Online Lars-J

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Nope, they are thinking of going south and dropping the first stage before cuba. The restriction is any rocket doing this must have automated range safety. So currently only Falcon 9 but I think all planned future rockets will have this too.

Are you sure? because it't not just Cuba that is in the way... Bahamas and all that busy area off Miami as well. And the other Caribbean islands - The NG 1st stage lands pretty far away.

Which is also why all previous proposed polar launch trajectories from CCAFS/KSC went due north with a dog-leg. (but I could be wrong!) 
« Last Edit: 01/02/2018 07:57 PM by Lars-J »

Offline envy887

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Nope, they are thinking of going south and dropping the first stage before cuba. The restriction is any rocket doing this must have automated range safety. So currently only Falcon 9 but I think all planned future rockets will have this too.

Are you sure? because it't not just Cuba that is in the way... Bahamas and all that busy area off Miami as well. And the other Caribbean islands - The NG 1st stage lands pretty far away.

Which is also why all previous proposed polar launch trajectories from CCAFS/KSC went due north with a dog-leg. (but I could be wrong!)

Once past Cuba (which is 400 to 500 miles south) there's nothing until Panama on a sun-sync trajectory (~95 degrees) or Venezuela on a polar trajectory (~85 degrees), both of which are over 1,300 miles away. Lots of room to drop a New Glenn booster on a ship in the south Caribbean.

Online Lars-J

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Nope, they are thinking of going south and dropping the first stage before cuba. The restriction is any rocket doing this must have automated range safety. So currently only Falcon 9 but I think all planned future rockets will have this too.

Are you sure? because it't not just Cuba that is in the way... Bahamas and all that busy area off Miami as well. And the other Caribbean islands - The NG 1st stage lands pretty far away.

Which is also why all previous proposed polar launch trajectories from CCAFS/KSC went due north with a dog-leg. (but I could be wrong!)

Once past Cuba (which is 400 to 500 miles south) there's nothing until Panama on a sun-sync trajectory (~95 degrees) or Venezuela on a polar trajectory (~85 degrees), both of which are over 1,300 miles away. Lots of room to drop a New Glenn booster on a ship in the south Caribbean.

They are not going to overfly Cuba with a first stage, that is fantasy land thinking.

Offline envy887

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Nope, they are thinking of going south and dropping the first stage before cuba. The restriction is any rocket doing this must have automated range safety. So currently only Falcon 9 but I think all planned future rockets will have this too.

Are you sure? because it't not just Cuba that is in the way... Bahamas and all that busy area off Miami as well. And the other Caribbean islands - The NG 1st stage lands pretty far away.

Which is also why all previous proposed polar launch trajectories from CCAFS/KSC went due north with a dog-leg. (but I could be wrong!)

Once past Cuba (which is 400 to 500 miles south) there's nothing until Panama on a sun-sync trajectory (~95 degrees) or Venezuela on a polar trajectory (~85 degrees), both of which are over 1,300 miles away. Lots of room to drop a New Glenn booster on a ship in the south Caribbean.

They are not going to overfly Cuba with a first stage, that is fantasy land thinking.

How is a mostly empty first stage on a suborbital trajectory different than a mostly full upper stage + payload on a suborbital trajectory?

It's just one more IIP trace per launch. Run the numbers, and if they meet the FAA limits and the range can track it, what else do they need? Eastern range launches run IIPs across Europe and Africa all the time.

Online nacnud

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NG first stage lands after about 800km, so it could come down before cuba.

Online Lars-J

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NG first stage lands after about 800km, so it could come down before cuba.

In theory, but not in practice. See my image. That will place the ship on the shores of Cuba, and that ignores overflying Bimini islands (part of Bahamas), not to mention many other issues such as a very busy shipping and aircraft filled water/air space as the launch trajectory basically follows the Florida coast. It ain't happening - at least not that way.

Online nacnud

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I guess NG will just have to stage a bit early...

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