Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 : PAZ & Microsat 2a/2b : SLC-4E : Feb 22, 2018 : DISCUSSION  (Read 202717 times)

Offline AstroBrewer

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Not necessarily
To my knowledge no one here has given a time for the launch.
Therefore the relative location of the terminator is unknown.
It could launch in sunlight.
The flight path won’t differ dramatically from that of Iridium with that inclination, from the standpoint of observing from Southern California.

This discussion made me curious, so I did a little googling.  According to the description of PAZ on Gunter's Space Page http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/paz.htm PAZ is a copy of the German TerraSAR-X and Tandem-X satellites and is intended to operate in the same orbit with them as a constellation.  On the Earth Observation Portal page on Terra SAR-X it says that it operates in a "Sun-synchronous circular dawn-dusk orbit with a local time of ascending node at 18:00 hours (± 0.25 h) equatorial crossing...."  The same site also has a page on PAZ
https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/p/paz that says that PAZ will fly the same ground track ~30 minutes ahead of TerraSAR-X and Tandem-X, so ~17:30 mean local time of ascending node. 

The launch time from Vandenberg is going to be a little before the descending node crossing time which is on the opposite side of the Earth from the ascending node, so around 5:30am.  It doesn't take long to get from Vandenberg to the equator at orbital speed, so to hit the descending node at 5:30am they will need an early morning launch a little before 5:30am-ish.  So it should be an early morning launch. On January 30th the sun rises at 7:00am, so without doing any math I think that there's a good chance that the Falcon's trajectory will take it into the sunlight while the sky is still dark and give us another cool light show.   

« Last Edit: 12/27/2017 05:59 am by AstroBrewer »

Offline Lar

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Given the orbital requirements for a sun-synch (thanks for that analysis, AstroBrewer) it sounds like requests to launch this particular mission at a different time would be met with a polite "no"...  as that would require plane changes, or perhaps a different orbit and a catchup, both of which would take more propellant.
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Offline envy887

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Back-lighting with light scattering (a night launch out of VAFB)  is far more spectacular than front-lighting with light reflection (a pre-dawn launch). I highly doubt that this launch will be nearly as visible, so there's almost certainly no need to change the time.

A pre-dawn launch out of the Cape would potentially be back-lit and very spectacular, but it would have to be to very high inclination  to be visible to the eastern seaboard.

Online gongora

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Infoespecial.com
Quote
The satellite took off on December 28 from the Torrejon de Ardoz air base in an Antonov AN124 that took it to the Vandenberg base, where it landed a day later without setbacks.

[SpaceNews] Morocco satellite launch could accelerate Spanish space efforts
Quote
Under the plan, the satellite is to be placed on the same orbit with German TerraSAR and TanDEM-X satellites to form a SAR constellation. Hisdesat communications director Araceli Serrano told SpaceNews the launch of PAZ remains forecasted for Jan. 30. “PAZ is already in California to be prepared for this,” he said.

Serrano says the Spanish company has a duty of confidentiality in respect to SpaceX, and, due to this, it cannot reveal the value of the contract. As a 1,400 kilogram satellite, PAZ is less than a tenth the mass a Falcon 9 can carry to low Earth orbit.

Offline DaveJes1979

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Serrano says the Spanish company has a duty of confidentiality in respect to SpaceX, and, due to this, it cannot reveal the value of the contract. As a 1,400 kilogram satellite, PAZ is less than a tenth the mass a Falcon 9 can carry to low Earth orbit.

I didn't realize the satellite was that light.  High chance of RTLS as long as the paperwork and red tape has been put to bed.

Online Chris Bergin

Falcon 9 PAZ/Demosat launch out of Vandenberg is slipping out of January, but nothing to do with Zuma....slip was just before Zuma's launch - so posting this to make sure the official date in Feb (when published) isn't seen as related.
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Offline mme

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Serrano says the Spanish company has a duty of confidentiality in respect to SpaceX, and, due to this, it cannot reveal the value of the contract. As a 1,400 kilogram satellite, PAZ is less than a tenth the mass a Falcon 9 can carry to low Earth orbit.

I didn't realize the satellite was that light.  High chance of RTLS as long as the paperwork and red tape has been put to bed.
And if they want the core back. They may be starting to clear the decks of Block 3 and 4 boosters.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline deruch

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Serrano says the Spanish company has a duty of confidentiality in respect to SpaceX, and, due to this, it cannot reveal the value of the contract. As a 1,400 kilogram satellite, PAZ is less than a tenth the mass a Falcon 9 can carry to low Earth orbit.

I didn't realize the satellite was that light.  High chance of RTLS as long as the paperwork and red tape has been put to bed.
And if they want the core back. They may be starting to clear the decks of Block 3 and 4 boosters.
I would think it's worth it to SpaceX to recover at least 1 via RTLS even if they have an excess of cores already.  It lets them prove out their RTLS ops for VAFB and reduces the risk of losing a more valuable Block 5 core if there's some unexpected problem.  Plus, it avoids many of the additional costs incurred by an ASDS recovery.
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Offline Norm38

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Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

Offline hootowls

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Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

I'm pretty sure some of them already had that thought.

Some were also convinced part of the rocket landed in Ventura.

The RTLS missions will have the added bonus of a sonic boom whether or not the spectacle of the booster is visible.  The intensity of the overpressure will vary based on the observers' location so I'll expect to hear to varied reports coming from those landings.  An unknown light in the sky AND a loud boom - we're definitely under attack! ::)

Offline Zed_Noir

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Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

I'm pretty sure some of them already had that thought.

Some were also convinced part of the rocket landed in Ventura.

The RTLS missions will have the added bonus of a sonic boom whether or not the spectacle of the booster is visible.  The intensity of the overpressure will vary based on the observers' location so I'll expect to hear to varied reports coming from those landings.  An unknown light in the sky AND a loud boom - we're definitely under attack! ::)

Maybe SX will announced the flight as a special effects project for one of the Marvel MCU space theme movies.  ;D

Offline Lars-J

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Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

I'm pretty sure some of them already had that thought.

Some were also convinced part of the rocket landed in Ventura.

The RTLS missions will have the added bonus of a sonic boom whether or not the spectacle of the booster is visible.  The intensity of the overpressure will vary based on the observers' location so I'll expect to hear to varied reports coming from those landings.  An unknown light in the sky AND a loud boom - we're definitely under attack! ::)

I doubt it, the LA area is too far away to see landings easily... Any RTLS landing at VAFB is not going to be nearly as easy to view as at CCAFS. VAFB is a lot more secluded.

Offline russianhalo117

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Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

I'm pretty sure some of them already had that thought.

Some were also convinced part of the rocket landed in Ventura.

The RTLS missions will have the added bonus of a sonic boom whether or not the spectacle of the booster is visible.  The intensity of the overpressure will vary based on the observers' location so I'll expect to hear to varied reports coming from those landings.  An unknown light in the sky AND a loud boom - we're definitely under attack! ::)

I doubt it, the LA area is too far away to see landings easily... Any RTLS landing at VAFB is not going to be nearly as easy to view as at CCAFS. VAFB is a lot more secluded.
Map view: link
« Last Edit: 01/10/2018 09:21 pm by gongora »

Offline Lars-J

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Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

I'm pretty sure some of them already had that thought.

Some were also convinced part of the rocket landed in Ventura.

The RTLS missions will have the added bonus of a sonic boom whether or not the spectacle of the booster is visible.  The intensity of the overpressure will vary based on the observers' location so I'll expect to hear to varied reports coming from those landings.  An unknown light in the sky AND a loud boom - we're definitely under attack! ::)

I doubt it, the LA area is too far away to see landings easily... Any RTLS landing at VAFB is not going to be nearly as easy to view as at CCAFS. VAFB is a lot more secluded.
Map view:

Exactly, LA is over a 100 miles away. Even with optimal weather, they aren't going to see much of any VAFB landing. It would be like expecting to observe an F9 landing at CCAFS from Tampa, not going to happen.
« Last Edit: 01/10/2018 11:23 pm by gongora »

Offline hootowls

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Sorry, guys, I wasn't clear enough.  The scope of my comments on viewing the RTLS missions started with responding to the LA scenario, then north up to Ventura, and finally to the local site in norther Santa Barbara county.  If IR-4 had been RTLS, the crazy calls to official centers would've been increasingly panicked as it tracked north, as people saw it approaching their local horizon and then those within the sonic boom footprint (which will be tens of miles). 

BTW, I'm local.   ;)

Online RocketLover0119

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Um, no offense but I saw the Zuma landing from Tampa.... ( I kind of live there)


Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

I'm pretty sure some of them already had that thought.

Some were also convinced part of the rocket landed in Ventura.

The RTLS missions will have the added bonus of a sonic boom whether or not the spectacle of the booster is visible.  The intensity of the overpressure will vary based on the observers' location so I'll expect to hear to varied reports coming from those landings.  An unknown light in the sky AND a loud boom - we're definitely under attack! ::)

I doubt it, the LA area is too far away to see landings easily... Any RTLS landing at VAFB is not going to be nearly as easy to view as at CCAFS. VAFB is a lot more secluded.
Map view:

Exactly, LA is over a 100 miles away. Even with optimal weather, they aren't going to see much of any VAFB landing. It would be like expecting to observe an F9 landing at CCAFS from Tampa, not going to happen.
« Last Edit: 01/10/2018 11:23 pm by gongora »
"The Starship has landed"

Offline Lars-J

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Imagine how the residents of LA will react to a sunset launch with another kerosene jellyfish, and a 1st stage coming back to RTLS.  They'll think the aliens are invading.

I'm pretty sure some of them already had that thought.

Some were also convinced part of the rocket landed in Ventura.

The RTLS missions will have the added bonus of a sonic boom whether or not the spectacle of the booster is visible.  The intensity of the overpressure will vary based on the observers' location so I'll expect to hear to varied reports coming from those landings.  An unknown light in the sky AND a loud boom - we're definitely under attack! ::)

I doubt it, the LA area is too far away to see landings easily... Any RTLS landing at VAFB is not going to be nearly as easy to view as at CCAFS. VAFB is a lot more secluded.
Map view:

Exactly, LA is over a 100 miles away. Even with optimal weather, they aren't going to see much of any VAFB landing. It would be like expecting to observe an F9 landing at CCAFS from Tampa, not going to happen.
Um, no offense but I saw the Zuma landing from Tampa.... ( I kind of live there)

I fixed your top-quote :)

A careful observer could, sure... The landing burn starts high enough. But my original comment was a response to "Imagine how the residents of LA will react"... I would bet that casual Tampa viewers did NOT flood social media with "OMG aliens are landing" posts. I would expect that you only saw it because you knew when and where to look, right?
« Last Edit: 01/10/2018 11:41 pm by Lars-J »

Offline russianhalo117

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Santa Barbara would see a great deal of it if you drive up on top of a range peak via California 154, otherwise the more North North West you travel along the PCH and California 135 the more you will see.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2018 12:04 am by russianhalo117 »

Online gongora

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New date: February 10.  15:22 Spanish Time should be 14:22 UTC, 06:22 PST.

http://www.infodefensa.com/es/2018/01/11/noticia-satelite-lanzara-febrero.html

Sunset at Vandenberg on February 10 is 5:41 PM PST, which means that it'll be 41 minutes after sunset at the time Paz launches.

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/

So if the skies are clear, should one expect mass panic on the West Coast again?

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