Author Topic: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan  (Read 273732 times)

Offline Star One

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #800 on: 10/25/2017 08:02 PM »
Quote
Jeff Foust
@jeff_foust
Sam Gunderson, Blue Origin: when I first toured our new Cape Canaveral factory for New Glenn, was stunned how big it is. #vonbraun

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/923270551321415682

Online NavierĖStokes

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #801 on: 02/28/2018 09:35 PM »
James Dean @flatoday_jdean

ULA's Gary Wentz says Vulcan-Centaur on track for first flight in mid-2020. (Yesterday, Blue Origin said targeting late-2020 for first New Glenn launch.)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #802 on: 03/10/2018 03:53 PM »
Quote
Mayerson: early New Glenn launches will be payloads; might be 7-8 years before start launching people on that orbital vehicle. Will need to increase the launch rate (initially 12/year) significantly. #spaceexploration

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/972507214845014016

Offline AncientU

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #803 on: 03/10/2018 08:50 PM »
Quote
Mayerson: early New Glenn launches will be payloads; might be 7-8 years before start launching people on that orbital vehicle. Will need to increase the launch rate (initially 12/year) significantly. #spaceexploration

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/972507214845014016

Will be interesting to see what configuration they envision for their orbital crewed vehicle.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Online gongora

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #804 on: 03/29/2018 05:14 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.

Offline mme

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #805 on: 03/29/2018 05:22 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.
Switching to a dual fuel architecture seems like a big deal. Surprised to seem them buckle down to schedule pressure but that's probably a good thing.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline PahTo

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #806 on: 03/29/2018 05:24 PM »

Thanks gongora--I suspected this was in the works based on my limited exposure to/at Blue.  It seems like a more logical progression as it is, and of course has implications for Vulcan/Centaur5/ACES as well (my words/thoughts, no inside knowledge).   

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #807 on: 03/29/2018 05:36 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.
Switching to a dual fuel architecture seems like a big deal. Surprised to seem them buckle down to schedule pressure but that's probably a good thing.

Also, looking at their other proposals (I.e. Blue moon lunar lander and the in-space tug) lots of synergy with the hydrolox BE-3 architectures.....
And this is a good reminder that just because one of your fellow space enthusiasts occasionally voices doubts about the SpaceX schedule announcements or is cautious about believing SpaceX has licked a problem before actually seeing proof that's true, it doesn't mean they hate SpaceX.

Online brickmack

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #808 on: 03/29/2018 05:51 PM »
If they're going this route, it'd probably make sense to cancel the third stage. Have 2 different second stages instead (same external dimensions, same propellant, so not difficult in terms of GSE), one with heat shielding and control surfaces and a landing engine (BE-3 SL?), one with lighter (balloon?) tankage/structures and accommodations for long-duration cryo storage and propellant transfer which would serve as the tug. A true third stage is of limited use when you've got a reusable tug anyway

Offline su27k

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #809 on: 03/29/2018 05:55 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.
Switching to a dual fuel architecture seems like a big deal. Surprised to seem them buckle down to schedule pressure but that's probably a good thing.

The article implies Blue is competing for EELV2 Launch Service Agreement (LSA), the schedule pressure is probably because the LSA RFP requires initial launch capability by October 2021.

Offline Inoeth

[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.

So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

Offline GWH

So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

I'd guess less to LEO, more to GEO (which may have been zero before). 2 BE-3Us are about half a single BE-4Us in thrust, and really close to a single Merlin 1D.

F9 stages at a low velocity to enable reuse, New Glenn is expected to do the same.  This limits the total mass of the upper stage by virtue of requiring a high Thrust to Weight ratio 2nd stage. I doubt the decrease in total 2nd stage mass would be offset entirely by higher ISP, low dry mass will also be needed to reach the GEO orbits.

Offline ZachF

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #812 on: 03/29/2018 07:40 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.

Quote
Mowry said switching to the BE-3U for New Glennís second stage will allow Blue Origin to conduct the rocketís first launch in the fourth quarter of 2020.

....so 2021?  :P

Offline ZachF

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #813 on: 03/29/2018 07:57 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.

So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

We don't know the size of the new second stage.

If it's the same mass it could do possibly do more to both orbits... potentially crazy performance to direct GEO.

Online envy887

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #814 on: 03/29/2018 08:08 PM »
So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

I'd guess less to LEO, more to GEO (which may have been zero before). 2 BE-3Us are about half a single BE-4Us in thrust, and really close to a single Merlin 1D.

F9 stages at a low velocity to enable reuse, New Glenn is expected to do the same.  This limits the total mass of the upper stage by virtue of requiring a high Thrust to Weight ratio 2nd stage. I doubt the decrease in total 2nd stage mass would be offset entirely by higher ISP, low dry mass will also be needed to reach the GEO orbits.

Should be massive improvements across the board due to the lower 2nd stage mass and higher ISP. I'd estimate 55+/-5 t to LEO, 18+/-3 t to GTO, and 5+/-2 t to GEO.

Stretching that LH2 upper stage and adding another BE-3U could potentially allow a future performance bump AND full reuse a la BFS. That was always an issue with the BE-4U upper stage, no good way to land it. But BE-3 is perfect for that, if they go to 3 engine. It's even vaguely possible they could land with 2 engines.

Online envy887

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #815 on: 03/29/2018 08:12 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.

So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

We don't know the size of the new second stage.

If it's the same mass it could do possibly do more to both orbits... potentially crazy performance to direct GEO.

"A pair" of BE-3U limits them on thrust to roughly a 60% stretch, or 80% of the total mass of the current stage. And actually, for going direct to GEO there is little benefit to a huge second stage since all that dry mass has to be inserted at GEO. I'd estimate between 150 and 200 tonnes wet, and between 14 and 18 tonnes dry for the upper stage.

Offline ZachF

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #816 on: 03/29/2018 08:18 PM »
So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

I'd guess less to LEO, more to GEO (which may have been zero before). 2 BE-3Us are about half a single BE-4Us in thrust, and really close to a single Merlin 1D.

F9 stages at a low velocity to enable reuse, New Glenn is expected to do the same.  This limits the total mass of the upper stage by virtue of requiring a high Thrust to Weight ratio 2nd stage. I doubt the decrease in total 2nd stage mass would be offset entirely by higher ISP, low dry mass will also be needed to reach the GEO orbits.

Should be massive improvements across the board due to the lower 2nd stage mass and higher ISP. I'd estimate 55+/-5 t to LEO, 18+/-3 t to GTO, and 5+/-2 t to GEO.

Stretching that LH2 upper stage and adding another BE-3U could potentially allow a future performance bump AND full reuse a la BFS. That was always an issue with the BE-4U upper stage, no good way to land it. But BE-3 is perfect for that, if they go to 3 engine. It's even vaguely possible they could land with 2 engines.

I'm getting the same numbers, with 1st stage recovery.

Would be a monster for sure, and if Bezos can price it under $100m (highly likely imho, especially with 1st stage recovery) it could definitely carve out it's own market and make some other providers (ULA, Arianspace) worried.

Offline ZachF

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #817 on: 03/29/2018 08:29 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.

So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

We don't know the size of the new second stage.

If it's the same mass it could do possibly do more to both orbits... potentially crazy performance to direct GEO.

"A pair" of BE-3U limits them on thrust to roughly a 60% stretch, or 80% of the total mass of the current stage. And actually, for going direct to GEO there is little benefit to a huge second stage since all that dry mass has to be inserted at GEO. I'd estimate between 150 and 200 tonnes wet, and between 14 and 18 tonnes dry for the upper stage.

So New New Glenn is probably looking something like this now

Online envy887

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #818 on: 03/29/2018 08:46 PM »
[Space News] Blue Origin switches engines for New Glenn second stage
Quote
Blue Origin quietly changed the design of its New Glenn rocket around the beginning of the year in order to hold to a 2020 first launch and increase the range of orbital missions the rocket can complete.
...
A Blue Origin executive told SpaceNews the company is shelving development of a vacuum-optimized version of BE-4 and will instead use vacuum-optimized versions of flight-proven BE-3 engines for New Glennís second stage and optional third stage.

So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

We don't know the size of the new second stage.

If it's the same mass it could do possibly do more to both orbits... potentially crazy performance to direct GEO.

"A pair" of BE-3U limits them on thrust to roughly a 60% stretch, or 80% of the total mass of the current stage. And actually, for going direct to GEO there is little benefit to a huge second stage since all that dry mass has to be inserted at GEO. I'd estimate between 150 and 200 tonnes wet, and between 14 and 18 tonnes dry for the upper stage.

So New New Glenn is probably looking something like this now

I'd guess they won't stretch it that much, more like 20 to 40% rather than 60 to 80%. The upper stage will be expensive, expendable, and already oversized for any current payloads. It probably makes more sense to do a small stretch now, and when they go after full reuse add a 3rd engine and a longer stretch.

Offline Kryten

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Re: New Glenn: Blue Origin Announcement of Orbital Rocket Plan
« Reply #819 on: 03/29/2018 09:32 PM »
So will this change result in a vehicle that can lift more or less than the original version with the BE-4U? They're switching from one engine to two, lengthening  part of it to account for the different fuels, etc, so i'm very curious to see what the new numbers will look like... Hopefully they update us soon now that this is all public...

I also wonder if the fact that it looks like NG will compete directly with Vulcan (and this new version could be even more optimized to do so) is why ULA hasn't publicly declared one way or the other about their new engine (even though AJR has really scaled back and all the signs nonetheless point to the BE-4 as the winner)...

I'd guess less to LEO, more to GEO (which may have been zero before). 2 BE-3Us are about half a single BE-4Us in thrust, and really close to a single Merlin 1D.

F9 stages at a low velocity to enable reuse, New Glenn is expected to do the same.  This limits the total mass of the upper stage by virtue of requiring a high Thrust to Weight ratio 2nd stage. I doubt the decrease in total 2nd stage mass would be offset entirely by higher ISP, low dry mass will also be needed to reach the GEO orbits.

Should be massive improvements across the board due to the lower 2nd stage mass and higher ISP. I'd estimate 55+/-5 t to LEO, 18+/-3 t to GTO, and 5+/-2 t to GEO.

Stretching that LH2 upper stage and adding another BE-3U could potentially allow a future performance bump AND full reuse a la BFS. That was always an issue with the BE-4U upper stage, no good way to land it. But BE-3 is perfect for that, if they go to 3 engine. It's even vaguely possible they could land with 2 engines.
Meeting the LSA orbits means it can do at least 6.6 metric tons direct GSO.

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