Author Topic: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket  (Read 23549 times)

Offline AntiAnti

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #60 on: 12/25/2017 11:00 AM »
I woudln't take it too serious, but RSC Energia is going to make a preliminary research of reusable first stage option for a Soyuz-5-based rocket. With vertical rocket landing.

(rus): https://iz.ru/680261/dmitrii-strugovetc-anastasiia-sinitckaia/ilonu-masku-otvetiat-soiuzom

Online AncientU

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #61 on: 12/26/2017 12:03 AM »
A couple Google translate bits:
Quote
In Russia, developing a reusable medium-range missile. It will be a response to the carrier of Falcon 9, created by Ilon Mask. Unification with a one-time(expendable) "Soyuz-5" will allow launching a future domestic missile from Baikonur, Vostochny, and also from a floating cosmodrome in the Pacific Ocean, under the Sea Launch program. The development of the novelty will be occupied by RSC Energia and the Progress space rocket and space center. According to experts, the creation of a reusable carrier is important for maintaining Russia's position in the launch services market.

Quote
The development of Soyuz-5 with a reusable first stage will be carried out by specialists from RSC Energia and the Progress space rocket and space center.

It is assumed that the rocket will make an independent landing - like the Falcon 9 of the American corporation SpaceX.

Quote
The scientific leader of the Institute for Space Policy Ivan Moiseyev considers the creation of reusable carriers promising and economically profitable.

"One of the most expensive rocket knots(parts?) is the engines," Ivan Moiseyev told Izvestia. - If we plant a step or otherwise save engines, then this gives 10-20% savings on each start-up. For the carrier this is a serious saving. In addition, the emergence of a Russian multiple-stage rocket will protect our share in the world market of space launches, which has been shaken after the accidents of recent years.
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #62 on: 12/27/2017 07:28 AM »
I was just thinking about this last night! A reusable first stage could use seven or nine RD-193 engines, giving 13.44 MN or 17.28 MN thrust, respectively. Stage diameter would have to be about 6.8 m or 8.3 m, respectively though. Use friction stir welded aluminium-lithium alloy with friction welded stringers. Pressurisation could be gaseous oxygen for LOX and gaseous nitrogen from heated liquid nitrogen for RG-1. Transport of the stage would be a problem. The An-225 that were used for Energia and Buran are now with Ukraine. The VM-T Atlant that was used previously might be able to be used. At 1.2g, lift-off mass would be 1,142 t or 1,468 t, respectively. That should give plenty of performance.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online AncientU

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #63 on: 12/30/2017 01:44 PM »
I was just thinking about this last night! A reusable first stage could use seven or nine RD-193 engines, giving 13.44 MN or 17.28 MN thrust, respectively. Stage diameter would have to be about 6.8 m or 8.3 m, respectively though. Use friction stir welded aluminium-lithium alloy with friction welded stringers. Pressurisation could be gaseous oxygen for LOX and gaseous nitrogen from heated liquid nitrogen for RG-1. Transport of the stage would be a problem. The An-225 that were used for Energia and Buran are now with Ukraine. The VM-T Atlant that was used previously might be able to be used. At 1.2g, lift-off mass would be 1,142 t or 1,468 t, respectively. That should give plenty of performance.

Go for it!!!!
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #64 on: 12/30/2017 04:22 PM »
I was just thinking about this last night! A reusable first stage could use seven or nine RD-193 engines, giving 13.44 MN or 17.28 MN thrust, respectively. Stage diameter would have to be about 6.8 m or 8.3 m, respectively though. Use friction stir welded aluminium-lithium alloy with friction welded stringers. Pressurisation could be gaseous oxygen for LOX and gaseous nitrogen from heated liquid nitrogen for RG-1. Transport of the stage would be a problem. The An-225 that were used for Energia and Buran are now with Ukraine. The VM-T Atlant that was used previously might be able to be used. At 1.2g, lift-off mass would be 1,142 t or 1,468 t, respectively. That should give plenty of performance.
Better off to just manufacture the launcher at the launch site given the dimensions you are proposing.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #65 on: 12/31/2017 01:30 AM »
Better off to just manufacture the launcher at the launch site given the dimensions you are proposing.

I suppose that could work for Vostochny, which can do both polar and launches to 51 degrees.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online AncientU

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #66 on: 12/31/2017 12:30 PM »
Better off to just manufacture the launcher at the launch site given the dimensions you are proposing.

I suppose that could work for Vostochny, which can do both polar and launches to 51 degrees.

Would be better to build something transportable first and work out all the bugs in the reuse cycle.  Then going larger would be fine because of the decreased number of new cores needed.  Building the fab facility at the launch site (Blue Origin approach) would be more direct, but potentially more expensive route.

Don't know where they are going to get the cash for any of this, though.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Offline spacenut

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #67 on: 12/31/2017 01:23 PM »
Russia, for large rockets, has a huge transportation problem.  The have very little year round seaports, no interstate highway system, very little barge, river, canal transportation.  Most of the population is in the east.  Most of the best launch areas are in the center or west, where weather is a huge factor, transportation is a huge factor, and a large manufacturing population is a huge factor. 

So, they have to rely on clustered rocket boosters that are rail transportable. 

If they could develop a rocket with the capability of say a Falcon 9, or Atlas V phase II, they could cluster these for a sizeable launcher.  Couple that with a good hydrolox second stage and you have a launcher capable of getting to the moon. 

Russia might be better off with in space assembly of a small Nautilus-X type vehicle that could travel to the moon with a lander and travel back.  If they can build a space station, they could build something to get to the moon. 

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