Author Topic: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates  (Read 289895 times)

Offline smith5se

Thanks to Chris G for specifically asking about the sep dynamics.


Yes indeed, kudos to him for asking.  I really enjoyed the quip of "it was designed to tumble," after the long detailed answer Bob (I believe it was) gave.

I wonder how different sep would have been for a full 5-seg instead of the dummy 5th stage.

Edit: Adjusted punctuation.
« Last Edit: 10/28/2009 05:04 pm by smith5se »
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Offline Jim

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #461 on: 10/28/2009 05:02 pm »

Also remember we are used to seeing separations of powered 2nd stages...


Atlas and Delta have unpowered separations

Sorry Jim, i'm being ambiguous in my haste. I mean of vehicles that have actual powered upper stages..rather than dummy simulators.

I meant powered in that respect, as in real rather than dummy. 

Dynamics are not different

Offline MikeEarnest

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #462 on: 10/28/2009 05:03 pm »
I watched the launch from all the available views and noticed a few things that I hope the experts on here can comment about.

1.  At SRB ignition I noticed the vehicle appeared to "pitch", by that I mean that from the side view the SRB base moved slightly to the left and the Escape Tower appeared to move slightly right less than 2 seconds after ignition.  Is this what it was supposed to do.  I am only talking about a .5 degree or 1 degree pitch.

2.  At SRB separation the booster appeared stable, where the upper stage did not appear to separate cleanly and began to tumble emmediately.  In the CGI sim the opposite was true, where the booster tumbled and the dummy upper stage fired separatioin motors and proceeded straight and true.

Overall it appeared to be a very stable flight with none of the violent rolling and instability that was predicted by some, let alone the G forces staying very close to 3gs for the duration of the flight.

I look forward to responses.







Michael S. Earnest QM1(SW), USN (ret.)
Marysville, WA

1991-1996 STS Coastal Security Picket, SRB Recovery, DOD Team (Surface).

Online ugordan

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #463 on: 10/28/2009 05:04 pm »
HD version of the launch, slightly better quality tracking shots:

Offline generic_handle_42

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #464 on: 10/28/2009 05:07 pm »
Q: From watching a lot of countdowns, the internal comms seemed a little rocky... is that a fair assessment?

A:  Comms is different than shuttle launches.  Prime launch team did outstanding.  Communications areas will be improved through more flight tests.  This was a learning experience.  We will take lessons from it.  Range and weather communications and support were outstanding.

Q:  What messages do you want the test flight to send to the next generation?

A:  This is fun fun stuff!  This is the time to come join us.  This is the sort of thing that inspired us.  There is interest in going beyond LEO, so this is an exciting time.  This is about people, discovery, and learning things for society and our country.  It proves that anything is possible.  NASA and the space program can do anything and this helps prove anything is possible.  But it is the people that make it happen.
« Last Edit: 10/28/2009 05:10 pm by generic_handle_42 »
-Nick-

Offline simonbp

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #465 on: 10/28/2009 05:11 pm »
Yes, please do it again! :)

Offline anonymous1138

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #466 on: 10/28/2009 05:13 pm »

 Even worse was the separation......

This separation was as expected. The USS didn't have any live thrusters, so it entered a tumble.  The booster fired its sep motors, followed immediately by its tumble motors *as planned*.  That sent it into a tumble *as planned*. 

 - Ed Kyle

I think you misunderstood the statement.  The sep did _not_ go completely as expected. The question is not whether the first stage tumbled - everyone knows that was supposed to happen as a planned part of the recovery process. At the press conference just completed it was specifically stated that the immediate second stage tumble was unexpected. That's what was being referred to. It could be a lot of things, aerodynamic effects, proximity aero, recontact, etc.
« Last Edit: 10/28/2009 05:16 pm by anonymous1138 »

Offline ChrisC

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #467 on: 10/28/2009 05:14 pm »
I watched the launch from all the available views and noticed a few things that I hope the experts on here can comment about.

Uh, yeah, see the last 10 pages of this thread for discussion of that!
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Offline edkyle99

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #468 on: 10/28/2009 05:15 pm »

Also remember we are used to seeing separations of powered 2nd stages...


Atlas and Delta have unpowered separations

Sorry Jim, i'm being ambiguous in my haste. I mean of vehicles that have actual powered upper stages..rather than dummy simulators.

I meant powered in that respect, as in real rather than dummy. 

Dynamics are not different

Sep altitudes are much different.  And the upper stages have live RCS that springs into action fairly quickly.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline generic_handle_42

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #469 on: 10/28/2009 05:16 pm »
Q:  Current direction is to keep moving forward. What are big upcoming milestones?  Ares 1-Y?

A:  Next thing is Pad Abort 1.  Test of LAS on Orion.  Capsule is boilerplate, and is at White Sands. Parachutes and abort motor are being installed, and will be fired in the spring.  Beyond that, is Ares 1-Y.  Schedule is always changing, but is planned for March 2014.  Was to be sub-orbital test of 5-seg 1st stage and high-altitude abort.  We want to see if we can attach an engine to the upper stage, we continue to review that.  We are paced by budget for long-lead parts.  Puts pressure on our program towards critical design review.  J-2X engine in being designed and prepped for PDR.  Orion is is being worked on, a ground test article is being built.  Successful PDR in August, now working toward CDR next year.  Orion is largely ready for assembly... just waiting for parts.  ML is under construction.  VAB designs are complete.
-Nick-

Online rsnellenberger

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #470 on: 10/28/2009 05:16 pm »
Hilarious (not at all) that the servers cope with a record audience, but the database has an issue. Mark working out what it was. Many apologies for the last hour

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There is a Fark.com link to NSF on their "Geek" sub-page -- don't know whether it had anything to do with the outage but Fark links have spiked many sites in the past.

Offline Oberon_Command

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #471 on: 10/28/2009 05:16 pm »
I think I might be missing something on the recontact thing. I just watched the HD version and I can't see any recontact. It looks like the initial sep motor firing takes place while the vehicle is behind a cloud, and then the camera changes angles and you can see a big dark blotch on the base of the US that I assume is the hole in the frustrum. Then the tumble motor on the SRM fires and the "nose" of the SRM swings around past that dark section, eclipsing it. THEN the US starts to tumble. So when did the two recontact?
« Last Edit: 10/28/2009 05:18 pm by Oberon_Command »

Offline generic_handle_42

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #472 on: 10/28/2009 05:19 pm »
Q:  How much would a funding increase help in speeding up the process?  How much does a good test today increase confidence?

A: More money, sooner is good.  Systems take about 3 years to build, from the time the order is put in.  This includes parts.  So design needs to get done first.  And this puts us in the 2014 range.  Flat nature to our funding curve through this FY, then it jumps after Shuttle retires.  We would like to fly sooner, but funding hasn't materialized.  We need to adjust schedule accordingly.
-Nick-

Offline edkyle99

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #473 on: 10/28/2009 05:19 pm »

 Even worse was the separation......

This separation was as expected. The USS didn't have any live thrusters, so it entered a tumble.  The booster fired its sep motors, followed immediately by its tumble motors *as planned*.  That sent it into a tumble *as planned*. 

 - Ed Kyle

I think you misunderstood the statement.  The sep did _not_ go completely as expected. The question is not whether the first stage tumbled - everyone knows that was supposed to happen as a planned part of the recovery process. At the press conference just completed it was specifically stated that the second stage tumble was unexpected. That's what was being referred to. It could be a lot of things, aerodynamic effects, proximity aero, recontact, etc.

Bob Ess said that the separation looked good, clean, but that there were some surprises on the upper stage "dynamics" (i.e. tumble rate).  He also said that a tumble like this had been seen in some simulations, the result of slightly off axis but not out of spec positioning at sep, which would mean that it was not completely "unexpected".

It was interesting, but not a big deal.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline generic_handle_42

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #474 on: 10/28/2009 05:21 pm »
Q:  Triboelectrification... what would it have taken to certify vehicle?

A:  It's not so much an issue of certification.  You can coat the vehicle to dissipate charge.  Or you can show vehicle is not sensitive to the effect. Shuttle does not have this rule.  It is more a rule for a brand new vehicle.  Our analysis shows Ares 1-X was probably not susceptible to it, but didn't want to take the chance.  You learn from these experiences.

Q:  How many launch times did you set over the last 2 days?  ;)

A:  I don't look at it as a comedy, but it beats any reality show.  There was a bet on how many we would do today.  In reality I would say only 2 times yesterday and once today...  including the time when we got below T-4:00 yesterday, and today when we launched.  You have to set a resume time for this hardware... not exactly like shuttle where you can just pick up the count.  The team did very well working through issues, including the lightning strike.
« Last Edit: 10/28/2009 05:24 pm by generic_handle_42 »
-Nick-

Offline vanoord

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #475 on: 10/28/2009 05:22 pm »
Looking at that HD version of separation, the upper stage seems to be given a shove from the lower stage which starts the tumbling.

The first two half-rotations for the upper stage take around 6 seconds each, with the next half-rotation (which is cut off just about halfway through) looking as if it's going to take a second or two longer - that would imply (to me) that the impulse which started the tumbling was not aerodynamic forces, but contact from the lower stage.

The issue (presumably) is made worse by the lower stage tumble motors firing whilst the upper stage is in too close a proximity to the upper stage - the cure for this would be slightly later firing of the tumble motors and possibly some method of slightly retarding the lower stage?
« Last Edit: 10/28/2009 05:24 pm by vanoord »

Offline marsavian

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #476 on: 10/28/2009 05:22 pm »
Fundamentally that was a success, SpaceX-esque staging notwithstanding ;). They controlled an inline Shuttle SRB successfully and safely from launch to separation. Staging, Thrust Oscillation, Acoustics, Money, fundamentally these can all be solved given the will and time but the concept was proved today and the MSFC Stick boys and girls can walk a little prouder today whatever the future holds, Congratulations !
« Last Edit: 10/28/2009 05:24 pm by marsavian »

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Hilarious (not at all) that the servers cope with a record audience, but the database has an issue. Mark working out what it was. Many apologies for the last hour

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There is a Fark.com link to NSF on their "Geek" sub-page -- don't know whether it had anything to do with the outage but Fark links have spiked many sites in the past.


Na, the servers were fine, it was a bad line in the database, which is why the rest of the site remained working.
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Offline Downix

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #478 on: 10/28/2009 05:25 pm »
Fundamentally that was a success, SpaceX-esque staging notwithstanding ;). They controlled an inline Shuttle SRB successfully and safely from launch to separation. Staging, Thrust Oscillation, Acoustics, Money, fundamentally these can all be solved given the will and time but the concept was proved today and the MSFC Stick boys and girls can walk a little prouder today whatever the future holds, Congratulations !
Hear hear!

I may not be an Ares fan, but you have to give credit where it is due for a job well done.
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Offline robertross

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Re: LIVE: Ares I-X Countdown and Launch ATTEMPT 2 Updates
« Reply #479 on: 10/28/2009 05:26 pm »

Q: Why no visual on chute deploy?  With a test as smooth as this, what are your thoughts on "selling" this rocket.

A: ...We are working from Augustine report.  Have been instructed to continue on current path.  This test will be valuable no matter what happens in the future. 

That can't be correct??

I know this must have been a slip of the tongue, but they can't go by a 'report; at all, only whet they have been directed to do so far.

I do agree on the value of the test data however...

I will issue congrats to the teams who have worked on getting this rocket to fly, because it did, and you should be proud of that.

(sorry to reply to this in the middle of the presser)

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